Safety on Indoor Ranges

[farscott]

I grew up shooting outside, and, for the most part, alone, so the safety practices of others were not too important to me. Since my father used to smack me in the head if I committed a safety violation as I was learning, I learned pretty quickly what to do and not to do with a weapon.

I now use an indoor range for handgun practice for several months of the year. To be as safe as possible, I bring my unloaded handguns to the range in individual hard cases (ammo is in separate hard cases), and I orient the case so the muzzle is pointing downrange even before I open the case at the firing point. I really try hard to insure that I never point a weapon, in the case or not, at anyone. In turn, I expect the same courtesy and respect.

One of the things that really annoys me about indoor ranges is the weapon handling I see, especially with shooters bringing (presumably) unloaded handguns to the line. It seems that at least once a session I get "swept" by a muzzle, usually when a shooter is going to or from the shooting line. I usually try a polite reminder about muzzle control, but many people look at me like I am speaking Greek -- or mention that the gun is unloaded. That does not make me feel much better, and occasionally, I summon the range officer rather than reply with what is on my mind.

In the past, this seemed to be enough. However, I just learned that an negligent discharge occurred at my local range, with a round being fired into the range doors (180 degrees opposite from the designated firing direction). According to what I was told, it happened when a shooter removed his "unloaded" weapon from a soft case and somehow pulled the trigger. Luckily, no one was hurt, but I got to see the holes in both (inner and outer) range doors and the damaged shelving on the opposite wall of the retail floor with my own eyes.

With this preamble, here are my questions:

1) How do you handle safety infractions? I am looking for methods that address the issue without insults. I am really trying to not escalate a discussion into an argument, especially when both sides have weapons.

2) What handling techniques do you use to return weapons to and from the firing point? How do you insure the safety of yourself and others?

 

[ARperson]

1) How do you handle safety infractions? I am looking for methods that address the issue without insults. I am really trying to not escalate a discussion into an argument, especially when both sides have weapons.

Politely tell the person of the infraction and the correct procedure. Something like, "Excuse me. I noticed that you __________ (whatever the safety violation was). Such an action violates the safety rules of this range and puts other shooters in harm's way. Would you please not do that anymore/Would you please _________________ (insert the proper safety actions if you need to make sure they understand what SHOULD be done in addition to what shouldn't be done)." Any retort gets reported to the range officials immediately. I mean I just smile at the ??????? and then turn around, walk out of the shooting area, and report his actions right then and there. It's not my responsibility to make sure people follow the rules.

If the violations continue despite being told otherwise (by me or the range officials), I pack up and leave and request a refund for the unused time explaining why I am leaving early.

I'd say the only time I didn't follow this was at a local indoor range that's frequented by a less-educated crowd who view firearms as status symbols of street power. When the handgun was fired gangster style (rotated 90 degrees so that the shooter's palm is facing downward) and the shotgun being used by his buddy was fired from the hip, I just packed up my stuff, informed the staff, and told them I wouldn't be returning if they continued to let such shooters inside the range.

2) What handling techniques do you use to return weapons to and from the firing point? How do you insure the safety of yourself and others?

Pretty much how you described it. Double check at home that any firearm being loaded into a case isn't loaded. Remove them from the case with muzzles pointed down range and immediately checking to make sure they are unloaded. Always follow the safety rule that reminds us to keep our fingers away from the triggers until we're ready to shoot. Returning is a reverse of the process.

Insure the safety of myself and others? Hmmmm. By not putting myself ina situation where my safety is threatened. I can't control the actions of others. I can only request that they follow the stated safety rules. If they don't, I'm outta there. As for others not in my party, it's not my responsibility to insure their safety. If they stick around when dumbasses are on the line, that's their choice. I may let them know that there are dumbasses around who are not being safe, but beyond that I really don't bother.

I try to avoid indoor ranges with lots of other shooters around for precisely these reasons.

 

[Graystar]

We're talking about preventing a life-threatening accident...to hell with their feelings! In my eyes, unsafe shooters need immediate correction. If I saw someone doing something dangerous I'd yell out "Hey! What are you doing??" In your case, you now have a great make-them-really-understand prop. When they inform that the gun is unloaded, tell them "so was the gun that made that hole in the door."

Lets hope they fix the door such that you can clearly see it was a bullet hole.

 

[OH25shooter]

You asked an excellant question. But, I'm still unsure myself how to handle such incidents. At the indoor range I use the staff recently re-arraigned the counter so the range official can now see inside through a glass window. For me personally, I have a few problems with some shooters (most appear to be safe). My training came from the military and police department, so I'm very leery of inexperienced shooters. I can tell who is serious and who is just throwing round after round scattered on the target. I've seen some older shooters walk out and wait until the younger shooters (with the BIG guns) are finished. But, my best answer to your question would be to address the shooter in the range tactfully and/or the range official. Having said that, I am in no way offending young shooters. We were all young once. Proper training is the key. You can't call a bullet back!

 

[10-Ring]

I shoot primarily in an indoor range. I usually don't shoot if the range is busy or if there are big groups of people on a couple lanes (tough when guys are trying to show off to their GF's).
You bring up a good point. When I see infractions, I usually point them out to one of the RO's & let them deal with them.

 

[Smurfslayer]

depends on the context...

1: If it's an obvious oversight - "WATCH YOUR MUZZLE!"

2: Simple mistake - as above.

3: bad behavior - "CEASE FIRE !"
followed by a discussion about muzzle control. The cease fire will in my case, draw the attention of the range staff.

In situations 1 or 2 above, anything other than an apologetic response, gets the same answer as number 3.
Most people are there to have a good time, and aren't there to cause trouble. Polite is always good. I expect it of other people, so I give it to them by default. Nevertheless, being swept is a serious error requiring an immediate correction.

 

[P95Carry]

You can't call a bullet back

Too damn right!!

I rarely use indoor ranges but .. have always been disappointed at times with just the few cretins who seem to have little respect for others and what we mostly regard as ''normal'' safety practices.

I do feel that RO's should be tough .... there is no half measure.

I try and carry a piece from rear bench to firing point in a manner best demonstrating it's clear nature and ... muzzle at ground .. again making that obvious so as to reassure those around me. OBI's are a good measure too IMO.

I sometimes think that the careless types should be invited to shoot a round thru their own foot .. just to make sure they know what can happen!!

 

[Black Snowman]

In addition to what was mentioned above I also like to keep my actions open whenever I'm not firing.

As for response to infractions I'm in the majorty above. Friendly reminders or RO if they are unsafe. Never had to leave a range for safety reasons but I wouldn't hesitate to if it were an issue.

 

[GM7RQK]

The range I use over here has very strict handeling polices (we have to have over here), guns are uncased at a bench behind the firing point and stored in a rack when not being shot, guns are carried to and from the firing point pointed at the celing, when not in use guns are left with the action open or the cylinder swung out and no one has more than one gun at the firing point at a time. These rules even apply to airor CO2 guns.

I realise the pointing the gun up may not be appropriate if the range is not a single story structure, but other than that it helps to avoid any chance of sweeping anyone.


Stephen.

 

[farscott]

Thanks for the replies. I feel that a polite reminder is a good first step. If that fails, I will excuse myself and inform the range officer. If that fails, I wil gather my things and leave.

 

[OH25shooter]

I thought of this post yesterday. While at the indoor range, two young guys (with African accents) at the far end were firing AR-15's. One was showing the other how to fire the weapon. Suddenly, after he walked away the rifle went off into the ceiling. It was very obvious. Myself and another gentleman immediately stepped out of our booth and walked back to the back wall. We stared at the two and one motioned that it was o.k. Well, it's not o.k. Just another example of novice shooter(s) coming to the range and renting (or bring) large caliber handguns or rifles to blast away. I knew something was not right when they placed the target 10 feet away. With an AR-15...I don't think so. Makes me

 

[Kamicosmos]

I try to avoid busy days at the range, like Saturdays.

I actually find the outdoor uncontrolled ranges are a bit more scary for me than indoor ranges. I've never been swept more, or been more 'can't wait for that guy to leave' than at outdoor ranges. So I go to them during the middle of the week.

But, back to indoor ranges. I've never had to bring up saftey with anyone around me yet, and I shoot quite a bit. Now, that said, there is a particular range I don't go to much because I've seen extremely bad gun handling, including a loaded gun OFF THE RANGE! Reason I don't go there much, is cause the ROs and Staff seem to have a fairly worthless sense of safety and let people do what they want....kind of a 'we're all friends, right?' attitude.

I'm fairly non-confrontational though, and will let staff and ROs handle situations.

 

[P95Carry]

I've probably said earlier .... very rarely use indoor ranges ... fortunate to have pretty much what I need quite local .. small range, outdoor but covered FP ... pretty quiet most times I go ..... Mike Irwin and MTNBKR know the one I mean.

Occurs to me tho ... in CCW states .. is there any obligation to unload or remove the carry piece (thinkin here subsequent to kamicosmos' comment about loaded gun off the range ) .... not sure how they'd play that one. If someone was to wish to use the carry piece and only present it at the FP then with safe handling no problem ... however ... some might not be so safe.

I carry to and at range regardless but then as said .. hardly the busiest place on the planet. So what policies are there out there?

 

[farscott]

OH25shooter,

Your comments about the shooters with the AR-15 and the targets at near contact distance really hit home. I was once at my local range (shooting a new-to-me 1948 K-22 Masterpiece) while two gentlemen were wringing out a .44 Magnum revolver -- at silhouette targets fifteen feet away from the firing point. The major issue was they were shooting low and the bullet was striking the range floor and ending up who knows where. I became aware of what was happening when a bullet fragment struck my chest. No penetration, but I ended up with a small bruise. Made me really glad I am always wearing my safety glasses.

My response: I packed up my stuff, left the range area, and told the range owner what was happening. He politely asked them to cease and desist and to shoot elsewhere in the future.

 

[JPM70535]

I mostly use an indoor range because that is the only one in the county sin ce the outdoor range used by the local Police closed thanks to a vocal cadre of area residents who complained about the noise and potential danger. FYI, the range was there long before the residents. Now that it is closed, the city found it could do nothing with the land due to Lead contamination of the soil
(Surprise, Surprise0

The indoor range I have been shooting at since the outdoor one closed is a small 5 lane 25 ft. with motorized target hangers which allows for change of targets without calling a cease fire. for the most part the crowd that shoots there is older and long past the Rambo stage. Unfortunately, age does not equate with knowledge as it pertains to Range safety. On numerous occasions I have found evidence of NDs ( holes in divider partitions, gouges in Walls and floors, and one through the seat of a folding chair).AFAIK, there has never been anyone hurt due to these NDs.
My response to unsafe gun handling is to immediately but calmly call a halt to firing and try to explain to the violator what is dngerous about his actions. on a 2nd violation I go to the range staff and if they take no action, I leave post haste.

And just to set the record straight, Being LEO trained (Long since retired) so I am used to operating on a hot range so the sight of a loaded weapon does not cause unrest, and the act of reloading magazines at areas other than the firing line seems perfectly acceptable. The one thing that causes chills to run down my spine is the sound of a magazine being inserted followed by the sound of a slide being racked from somewhere behind me, and not knowing what kind of training the perpetrator has undergone.

It may be a moot point as the range is closed due to a loss of Liability Insurance. The hardware store that houses the range places a low priority on it.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES ALL THE OTHERS!!!!!

 

[OH25shooter]

JPM70535,

I'm a retired city LEO as well. For me, it took some time to get adjusted to firing a weapon around untrained civilians. Now, before everyone jumps on that statement you have to understand LEO's and the military are trained under VERY strict safety regulations. Doesn't make us any better then the civilian population, just trained different. I mean no harm. I think everyone should be concerned about range safety. My firearms instructor always told us, "you can never call a bullet back!"

 

[Greybeard]

Our small, private indoor range operates with the understanding that all firearms, loaded or not, are to remain concealed until actually inside on the firing line. Except with specific permission of an instructo or RO, all gun handling is done in the shooting stalls.

While there are shelves for temporary storage of range items in the rear of the firing room, everyone is instructed during the orientation NOT to do any gun handling in the rear of the firing room. This often means carrying range bag to a stall, unloading needed items, then taking range bag to the rear. Then, once done, going back to retrieve range bag and "repacking" in the shooting stalls only. This type of policy has largely eliminated guns being handled (much less getting loaded!) behind others' backs.

It is sometimes somewhat inconvenient - but a price necessary for comfort and safety.

 

[Penforhire]

I've taken to stepping back and watching any new-to-me shooters in the whole room before I step up to the line. There really are too many scatterbrained people out there. I know they didn't intentionally sweep me but they might as well have, for how I feel after.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Greybeard

Thanks for your post.

I frequently shoot indoors.

I have never been "swept" by a gun in hand (nor do I believe I have ever swept a fellow shooter) but did need to request a fellow shooter point the muzzle of his weapon laying on the back shelf in a different direction.

Previously, I have retrieved weapon in holster from bag, unholstered at line...racking slide and laying muzzle end down range with mag' insertion point facing me...then returned holster...reversing the process when changing weapons.

To your point, bringing the bag back and forth is really the better method, and I expect to adopt that approach going forward.

Safety is an imperative, but the original poster raises a legitimate point when suggesting that some measure of tact is required when approaching someone who may have a loaded gun in hand. You may be right, but the pedigree of the individual in question may not be compatible with your approach...

As to "newbies", I think it's safe to say that none of us came out of the womb imparted with perfect knowledge regarding the "Four Rules" or equivalent variants. Our sport needs new blood. They need the range time. They need someone to provide firm but friendly guidance similar to what we've received.

Best wishes,

CZ52'

 

[ChickenHawk]

When carrying a gun to the line, if not still in the box/bag, semi-autos should be at slide-lock and revolvers should have the cylinder open.

That is the only way you know it is safe. Trusting people to "check that their guns are empty" just because a sign is posted is an accident waiting to happen.

That said, I actually was surprised at the range yesterday when I walked from my lane to the adjoining lane to let my wife try my gun. My gun was at slide-lock (magazine in my other hand) and was aiming straight up as I walked around the barrier between lanes. The RO walked up to me and told me that I wasn't allowed to walk between lanes with a gun. I pointed out the gun's condition and he told me, "I know. You were perfectly safe. But we don't allow that here."

I've been shooting there for years and have never heard of this rule. I'll have to take a fresh look at the poster.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

 

[P95Carry]

Hey Chicken .!!

So you got to range then (odd that - the ''rule''! )

So many threads to find and follow so ... did you write up the Bersa fun then? let me know URL if so ....

 

[Kruzr]

Chicken, we have the same rule at the range where I work. Shooters should move between lanes not guns.

I'd suggest that anyone who sees a safety violation that the RO doesn't at an indoor range to report it to the RO and let him deal with it. We get paid (not much) to do that. That way you won't be subject to those "looks" or any comments or hostility from the rule breakers and can just enjoy your shooting time.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Hi guys,

Chicken, we have the same rule at the range where I work. Shooters should move between lanes not guns.

OK, I understand the good sense behind that. But my wife is a lousy shot and I don't want her messing up my target! LOL! I'm meat if she sees that!

I'll post a range report tomorrow, P95Carry. I promise!

Regards,
ChickenHawk

 

[Jack19]

1) How do you handle safety infractions?

I know the owner and the staff of my local public range pretty well. I'll usually exit the range and pull one of them aside to explain the problem. They had a suicide by rented range gun there awhile back and they are very proactive in solving safety issues.

2) What handling techniques do you use to return weapons to and from the firing point?

I don't bring handguns in cases to the range just the ammo. Handguns go back into CCW holsters when I leave the firing line so there's really no issue there for me.

 

[Penforhire]

To answer your note 2), my revolvers have the cylinders empty and swung out. My autos have the slide locked back, no magazine, and verified no cartridge in the pipe. Then all are pointed at the ceiling while transferring to/from the line, with my fingers away from the trigger.