Saiga 12 cheers/jeers?

[SN13]

FSJeeper.

Honestly I think it's a personal preference. If you like yours unconverted, fine.

I shoot clays better converted, my trigger is better converted, my handling is better converted, it's about 3" shorter converted.

I kept mine stock for a while... but now, if i shoot anyone's unconverted, i can really tell the difference in sloppy, gritty, heavy, long trigger in the stock gun, compared to my short, light, crisp, smooth trigger in mine.

It's like a computer, when you buy a new one, you don't really notice a big change in performance over the last one, but when you go back and start up the old one, you get frustrated at how long it takes to load up and open files etc. The point is, when Upgrading (sporter to PG form) you don't notice a big improvement right away... but when downgrading (PG to Sporter) you REALLY notice... It makes me appreciate my converted gun all that more.

 

[Girodin]

The bottom line is that the ergo's are superior on the stock S12 over the AK conversion and converting it diminishes its potential.

Hummm, I seem to find the ergos superior when I can actually reach the safety selector with my hand still on the grip.

A stock S12 is also completely out of balance and overly front heavy. Conversion greatly improves the s12 in this regard.

As pointed out the difference between the stock trigger and a good aftermarket one is night and day.

Conversion also helps on the 922R but obviously is not the only way to be compliant.

The only practical reason I can see to have the sporter stock is to be able to legally import the thing. If import restrictions didn't exist neither would the sporter stock.

If you like your gun the way it is then that's great. I hope you have minded 922r if you are running 10 round mags though. I would agree with your advice to compare a stock gun with a converted one. I would imagine the vast majority of folks will prefer the converted one though.

 

[FSJeeper]

I totally agree with improving the trigger. It definitely needs work.

All of my rifles/shotguns have the traditional stock configuration except for the AK 47 underfolders which are sort of SHTF type weapons that are more easily concealed.

I have read in a number of places about the superiority of the traditional stock design, especially in shotguns. Skeet, Trap and sporting clay competitors are always looking for an advantage and if the pistol grip AK format is superior, why havn't other guns adopted it?

This all comes down to personal preference and there is a world of difference between the AK stock and the sporter stock to me.

 

[Girodin]

Skeet, Trap and sporting clay competitors are always looking for an advantage and if the pistol grip AK format is superior, why havn't other guns adopted it?

They also haven't adopted the sporter stock configuration AKM format now have they? Extrapolating that the best stock for a double gun is the same as that for a AKM platform shotgun with a completely different set of intended uses is really sort of silly.

One might better note that of the 3 gun competitors I know of using the S12 none of them use the sporter stock. These are people that have modded their guns with mid barrel comps, mag wells, chokes, optics, etc. They are guys looking to win and looking for advantages. Yet, none of them have maintained the sporter stock.

I would note that fit is important. The first saiga I ever converted I stuck a standard length stock. Upon shooting it, I found it very uncomfortable. The dang stock was too short, and combined with the grip I used on that on it simply wans't mounting to the right spot very naturally. A NATO length stock made a big difference. So did a grip with the right angle. I included that antidote as an illustration of the importance of fit. I might have written off converted guns when that was not the real culprit per se.

 

[FSJeeper]

I put a limsaver slip on recoil pad on both of mine to solve the lop issue. Worked great. And I agree, without the extra length they were cumbersome for me.

 

[leadcounsel]

Lipadj46 stated:

Quote:

They are used at the special forces level and are very reliable with buckshot and slug loads.

Can you please cite your resources or experience. I know first hand that our SF inventory has Benellis but zero Saiga 12 gauge for our use.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I know first hand that our SF inventory has Benellis but zero Saiga 12 gauge for our use.

Wrong SF.

Read to the end.

Right around 7 min he talks about it's military use.

 

[Geneseo1911]

Very nice gun SN!
That thing has all the bells & whistles!
Is that a competition gun?

 

[rogertc1]

Got my Saiga 12- 19" a couple weeks ago. Did not do a trigger conversion however. I used a Tapco T6 Interfusion stock (has pistol grip and M4 stock), a Tapco front stock, and a KC puck. Because they are all US made they count as 4 points total which allows me to use my US made 12 round mags or my rd drum.
Problem is it will not cycle with low brass ammo from Wall mart. Darn it.
It has the hole barrel ports and they are open. Gun made in Nov 2008.
My next step is polishing the bolt face/bottom and rail. Then I have to find some hi-brass to maybe get the bolt to move all the way back upon recoil...

Such a challenge. Thank giod for the Saiga Forum.

I will get my Soumi in next week to face another challange.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Rogertc1, put about fifty rounds of 00 buck through it then try the wal-mart stuff again. Sometimes a Saiga needs a good loosening up.

 

[rogertc1]

Thanks. I contacted or I should say I was contacted to return the gun to be fixed because of my post on Saiga forum.
Neat service.

Pray for me next week when I get my Soumi in!!!

 

[eric.cartman]

I absolutely LLLOOOVVVEEE my Saiga 12!!!
Recoil is mild comparing to other shotguns I've shot.
It had some reliability issues, but after replacing the gas puck, and gas regulator thingie to let more gas in, it cycles just fine. Got 5 10rd AGP mags that needed breake in as well (lips too thick). Had it converted by a good friend SN13 to AK style (pistol grip, AK stock, etc, etc). Put Krebs ghost sights on it, and Poly Choke II. Looks bad a$$, shoots even better.

CONS: Walmart never has enough ammo in stock

 

[Aka Zero]

Seen a few people around with the mag well. Where do you get one of these?

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I Belive Magnolia State Armory makes the magazine wells

 

[chuckusaret]

Great discussion, but based on the comments, I believe it would money better spent on a shotgun other than the Saiga. IMHO the Saiga I had was a POS from the day I bought it. I replaced it with a Mossberg 930 SPX w/PG 8 shot that puts the Saiga to shame and would shoot anything right out of the box, did not require any modifications or repairs to make it shoot and it is not a piece of stamped sheet metal that rattles like a bucket of marbles. Another thing the Mossberg cost is about $150 t0 $200 less than the Saiga. But this is America and for the time being we have the choice to buy and say what we want to, but for not much longer if Obamanation has his way.

 

[NoAlibi]

Yakov says...

eric.cartman
I absolutely LLLOOOVVVEEE my Saiga 12!!!

chuckusaret
IMHO the Saiga I had was a POS from the day I bought it.

I used to see the same phenomena with mototcycle enthusiasts. My 750cc, shaft drive "rice-burner" never gave me a hiccup, but a Harley owner would rather have a head-on with a semi than be caught riding on one even though at the time the Harleys were a mechanical nightmare.

chuckusaret
But this is America and for the time being we have the choice to buy and say what we want to, but for not much longer if Obamanation has his way.

God, Yakov and I love this country!

 

[WardenWolf]

Just shot my new Saiga 12 19" yesterday. Very nice gun. Before I even shot it, I did the following:

1. Replaced the gas plug with the finger-adjustable Gunfixer plug. This also improves gas flow and means I no longer have to use a tool to adjust it.

2. Replaced the piston / tappet with the King Armory version. The King Armory piston improves reliability by increasing the number of rounds the weapon can cycle without cleaning (up to 1000 to 2000) and also improves cycling with light loads.

3. Replaced the stock with the Russian skeleton stock. I already had one from my Saiga rifle before I converted it, so this was just a quick swap.

I also ordered a Poly Choke, but it was not here yet when I took it out yesterday. My impressions are that it handles incredibly well with the Russian skeleton stock. It is fairly lightweight, and snaps to aim quickly and easily. I like those skeleton stocks because the gun can be flipped to shoulder from a low ready position, and they provide a natural cheek weld for using the gun's sights. I discovered that you CAN breech load it with the bolt locked open and the magazine removed, by placing the shell directly in the bolt.

The gun cycled perfectly fine with the heavier loads I was using at first. However, the stories regarding Fiocchi ammo are apparently true: they're a "dead" load and have problems cycling in a Saiga until it's thoroughly broken in. If I want to shoot bird shot before it's broken in, I will probably buy 3" shells in the future to counteract it or at least ensure whatever I'm getting will shoot 1300 FPS. What I also discovered, though, is that, as a lefty, cycling the action manually to reload it is about as fast as using a pump. You can indeed get off multiple shots even if the ammo won't cycle it. So for ergonomics, I have to give it a huge win, at least for me.

Despite these minor teething issues (which I was fully aware of before I bought it), I love the gun. It shoots great, it handles great, and looks great. Even my father was highly impressed with it, saying (after only a handful of shots) that he likes it better than his Remington 1100. Any issues it has, can be easily dealt with by knowing what Saigas like and don't like, and there's ultimately no real restriction on it because you can always find a load of any size that will work.

 

[red_cedar]

I just had to post a picture of mine. Had wanted this configuration since I saw a wood furniture model available only in Europe.

Just got to the stage it is and am pleased with its outcome. I posted this on a couple other sights. Im still working on it some. Hope you guys dont mind.

older style handguards w/ slots cut in




newer style handguards.

 

[WardenWolf]

I just have to add: my father fired 5 shots with mine, and he's hooked. He wants one himself now.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Update: MD-20s now go for $120 stright from the maker. Inexpensive doublestack magazines soon to follow.

FWIW, I sold my Benelli M3 in the same month I made final payments on two more S-12s. Show me a tube-fed gun that holds ten rounds and is not 40" long, or that has as many quality options for modification, or that has an ergonomically correct pistol grip and folding stock... Yeah.

 

[Geneseo1911]

red cedar:
Where did that forend come from? I like it and I've not seen one like that.