Saiga 308; lots of info, little clarity

[Ghengisconrad]

Okay, so I want to put a scope and a bipod on my Saiga 308.

I can find scopes and bipods online. Thats not the problem. The problem is finding the right ones, and then making them fit my gun.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, how do I put a scope and bipod on my Saiga 308? Be specific please.... I'm very slow....

Thank you.

p.s. I'm going to hand craft the furniture for this thing. Why? because I can, and it will be a better hobby than just buying guns and blowing ammo! I'm going to make a dragonovesque stock and a form fitting front part (handguard i think its called).

 

[elmerfudd]

They're both pretty easy.

For the scope you can use a Russian scope that just clamps right on, or order a BP02 mount or replace the gas tube with an Ultimak tube. I'd avoid top cover mounts and the BP04 high mount. Get a scope with a wide range of adjustment as the side rails sometimes don't line up 100%.

For the bipod, simply remove the front forearm screw and replace it with a threaded sling stud. The threads are the same and once you're done you can add a Harris bipod.

I made my own furniture for one of my Saiga's and it turned out looking great.

 

[Ghengisconrad]

Thanks alot for the response!

Could you perhaps expound upond the scope choices a little bit? Is there some kind of factory thing I can buy so I can put on just like any old scope I buy? Like what is the advantages/disadvantages of the various options?

edit: also, this http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=3206&mode=linearplus

so I can't go with the ultimak version or what?

so confused.... all I want is a scope....

 

[Deus Machina]

On the left side of your gun, in the area between magazine and trigger, is a weird little rail. Those are meant to take a mount that will slide on and curve up above the gun, allowing a weaver rail up top so you can mount any scope you want in the same manner as the Dragunov. There are a few Russian scopes that have this mount integrated, instead of weaver rails or the like.

The Ultimak mount is a gas tube with a rail on the top. My stock one rattles a little, maybe the Ultimak fits tighter. These are popular for red-dot sights, but you would need a long eye-relief scope to use it for your purpose. No big deal, you just won't be able to mount just any Wally World scope on it.

edit: the link you posted to was for the Ultimak tri-rail, which I believe is the handguard. The mount Elmer was referring to is a replacement gas tube, which will work IIRC.

 

[Rmac58]

This is what I picked up, the scope is a McStar 3x8 40. I'll suggest going with some thing a bit smaller, as the rear sight needs to be folded forward to clear this scope cover.

I got these at a gun show, less than $100 total.

 

[gotime242]

Yup....a standard harris bi-pod will attach easily to the front sling stud, and a scope can easily be added with this:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AKS006-6.html

I used one for a while, it woked perfectly.

 

[Ghengisconrad]

So that 'rail' on the side of my saiga is the same thats on the side of my wasr10? is there a name for this kind of 'rail'?

How well does putting a weaver rail converter(?) on the gun work?

 

[lipadj46]

Yes the Saiga scope mount rail is the same and will fit all the russian side scope mounts.

The UTG quick release mount by leapers like Rmac has above is a decent mount for $40 here. The one from CTD above is an older version and I believe the quick release model is a little more refined.

https://www.gilbertsguns.com/AK+47+...e+Mounts/Quick+Detach+Picatinny+Rail+Mount+AK

It mounts the scope pretty low there is less than 1 cm gap between the dust cover and the mount enough to get a decent cheek weld with a small cheek rest.

The Russian BP-02 low mount is best but is hard to find right now, though if you use ebay there are some out there for $50.

 

[Ghengisconrad]

well I'm in no hurry really, so I should get the BP-02?

I don't understand this 'cheek weld' buisness....

 

[lipadj46]

If the scope is too high you cannot get a proper cheek weld on the stock, you need to raise your head a bit and that throws off your consistency. Like I said the BP-02 is supposed to be good and sits practically right on the dust cover. I have heard people need to grind a bit on the bottom of the mount because it was too low. I personally own the UTG mount but to be honest I have not got a scope mounted yet on my Saiga 12. It looks like a quality piece though and you can remove the dust cover without removing the mount unlike the BP-02.

 

[heron]

I've got the UTG quick-release mount on mySaiga .223, and it's great. Got mine from Gilbert's. Takes anything with a Weaver mount.

I have a red-dot sight on mine, and it does raise my sight line by an inch and a half, so my cheek weld has turned into a chin weld. I'm working on a home-made add-on to fix that.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't understand this 'cheek weld' buisness....

On a more conventional rifle and scope set-up, when your head is positioned correctly behind the ocular lens your cheek is rested securely on the top left (assuming you're right handed) face of the stock. That position allows the stock to support your head some and gives you a repeatable position that you learn to find before each shot. It isn't really even a conscious thing. When you can clearly see through the scope and your cheek is fitted up to the stock in its usual comfy position, you're properly aligned. And for the next shot you'll find the same position.

The eastern-bloc side-rail arrangement screws this up a bit. The dust covers of AK style weapons are thin sheet metal and they clip in fairly loosely so there's no way to solidly mount a scope up there. The side-rail is designed to hold a standardized elevated and offset scope mount but those have to be pretty high to clear the top cover -- and are generally located a bit to the left of the bore axis as well. When your eye is aligned with the scope your cheek is not against the stock (or not very securely anyway). You're relying on the muscles in your neck to support your head "just so" behind the scope and don't have the benefit of another point of contact (with the stock) to "triangulate" your proper head position.

(Also note, that the head position/stance for shooting an AK-series rifle with the Soviet scope arrangement is not the same as for shooting that same rifle with its iron sights. Weird, indeed.)

What this all boils down to is that it is more difficult than it has to be to find a consistent shooting position with these assemblies. And, so, accuracy (and comfort in shooting) is not as easy to come by as you might be used to with your Remington or Winchester bolt gun, or pretty much any other "western" rifle and scope design.

If you grab a soviet-style rifle with a scope and assume a "normal" shooting stance, hunkered down on the stock, you'll find yourself wishing for a third eyeball, somewhere up on your forehead above your left eye.

-Sam

 

[jackdanson]

Good explanation sam.

How well does putting a weaver rail converter(?) on the gun work?

Fairly well. My friend has one one his 7.62x39 saiga and it has stayed true for 300+ rounds. He has a nikon buckmark scope on it. Decent scope for about $150 irc.

I would rather go with a ruskie scope like this

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=646

They work fairly well too and mount directly. Some say buying from kalinka is bad mojo, but the one time I dealt with them they were spectacular. (I changed my order twice and eventually canceled...no charge, no problems, despite the fact that I was being a high-maitnance customer)

 

[lipadj46]

I've got the UTG quick-release mount on mySaiga .223, and it's great. Got mine from Gilbert's. Takes anything with a Weaver mount.

The box says it is a picatinny mount but I believe that weaver rings will fit on a picatinny rail also.

I would rather go with a ruskie scope like this

Kalinka is notorious for not having things in stock. I would email first they have the Kobra's listed in stock but they are not. They are known to ship you a substitute also if something is not in stock and it could be lower in value so just be wary of Kalinka and email them first.

If you grab a soviet-style rifle with a scope and assume a "normal" shooting stance, hunkered down on the stock, you'll find yourself wishing for a third eyeball, somewhere up on your forehead above your left eye.

Not all side mounts mount the scope to the left of bore. The UTG and the BP-02 mount the scope low on the center line of the rifle. There are some russian mounts that do mount high and to the left of the bore. I assume this is to not interfere with the irons It is nothing I would want though. My UTG mount on my Saiga will require some sort of a riser so I ordered the RAA Skeleton Stock which has a pad built in.

 

[elmerfudd]

I haven't tried the UTG mount yet, but I do have a couple of BP-02's and one BP04. The BP02's are a solid good quality mount. The BP04 is built similarly, but it's just too darn high.

One thing I think looks really good about the UTG mount is that it's about 1/4" higher than the BP02. I'm guessing that would allow you to field strip the rifle without removing the scope mount. You can't do that with a BP02. The height difference shouldn't make any difference since you could just use lower rings with the UTG and have the scope at the same height. The limiting factor in this case is usually clearing the ocular bell having to clear the rear sight, not how high the rail is above the top cover.

 

[lipadj46]

Yes you can take off the dust cover with the UTG mounted as there is about 1/4 - 1/2 inch gap under the mount. I like this feature and is one one of the things I did not like about the BP-02 and kept me from buying it. I know these mounts supposedly return to zero after remounting but I am not sure I would trust that 100% with any mount.

I saw a scope mounted on a BP-04 and it is just ridiculously high. It places the scope like 6" above the bore or that is what it looked like.

 

[elmerfudd]

I'd have to locate and compare my BP04 to one of the BP02's to tell you the exact difference, but suffice it to say that the BP04 is obtusely tall. I don't use it anymore and I stripped off the rail on it some time ago to use on something else.

The BP02 is a terrific mount, but it's just a fraction of an inch too close to the top cover. FWIW, the sights do seem to return to zero, or at least close enough for an AK, but I'm like you in that I just find the idea of removing a scope and trusting it to return to zero to be stupid.