Saiga Ak 74 vs AR 15

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have saigas in 3 different calibers including 5.45 and also ARs' in several calibers. As a defense weapon I'd use my 5.45. Recoil is like shooting a 22LR. Extremely reliable more devastating exit wound than 5.56. With a red dot, accuracy is about the same at 50 yards.
 
My AR will be bought sooner, but I would like to eventually own a Saida 74. I would maybe hunt deer with it too :)
Can I get a clear agreement on this??? They DO make non corrosive ammo for this caliber... Silver bear, and those like it... wolf brown bear, tula...
I probably would not shoot corrosive ammo through any semi auto gun.
I can stay away from russian mil surp when there are other surplus rounds like wolf...
 
My AR will be bought sooner, but I would like to eventually own a Saida 74. I would maybe hunt deer with it too :)
Click to expand...

The bullet of the 74, 5.45 x 39, is quite similar to the 5.56 x 45. If you want to hunt deer a 47 in 7.62 x 39 would be better suited.
 
For general range plinking, there's probably little difference in perceived performance. I'm a bit surprised you don't get better accuracy out of your Colt, though. In most cases, even bone-stock M4-style rifles with surplus ammo should shoot around 2MOA.

There is certainly much more one can do to improve the AR's accuracy which would certainly give it an advantage in many types of competition. Not to mention there is no match grade ammo for the 74 and it is much harder to reload.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why the AR is generally a better choice. Even a barebones rifle can be upgraded and made significantly more accurate with little effort.

Also, i would suspect many people in competition use the AR because there are biases towards it in our country that are not based on the merits of each weapon.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Among those at the top of the game, if another platform offered even a slight advantage, you'd see a wholesale shift among the best shooters. They tend to be quite unemotional about their choice of rifle.

Those with military and LE experience will of course also gravitate to what they know.
Click to expand...

But that doesn't account for the majority of 3 gun shooters who are civilians and choose to go with the AR.

If one doesn't exist it would be cool if "stock" gun competitions were created in which competitors must use guns in standard infantry configurations with standard issue ammo.
Click to expand...

In 3 Gun, you can shoot Limited/Tactical division. In High Power, you can shoot Service Rifle. In those divisions, even bone-stock guns can be competitive at the local level, and at the national level, there isn't a whole lot that needs to be done to improve the guns. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of competitors are not shooting fully blown race guns festooned with optics and bipods.
 
For general range plinking, there's probably little difference in perceived performance. I'm a bit surprised you don't get better accuracy out of your Colt, though. In most cases, even bone-stock M4-style rifles with surplus ammo should shoot around 2MOA.
Click to expand...

My Colt does shoot 2 moa with surplus. The Arsenal shoots slightly bigger groups but not by much.
 
I have never shot for groups. All I know is using my AR with a 4x scope from prone under the bench, no supports, I can ring my popper at 425y so easy it has become a little boring. Unless it is windy, then that gets fun playing with windage. Point being, MOA means nothing to me. I could really care less. If I can hit the steel plates at the ranges I need then great. If not then I am seeking another weapon. And so far my parts build AR is doing amazing.
 
Maybe there is a large selection of AK-74s which were not assembled by Century Arms.

Weren't quite a number of Century's AK-74s fitted with barrels which has 5.56 bores?
Some of these did not work with the required 5.45 bullets.

Sturmgewehre's report over a year ago was interesting. Century was said to have been totally aware of the barrel/bore situation. Did they figure that shooters would not go check the keyholes from 100 yards?
 
If I had a few years to plan for a SHTF scenario, I would proabably buy multiple ak 47's and 74's. I know for the 74, you can buy thousands of rounds for very cheap (relatively) and I would just stock up
 
Maybe there is a large selection of AK-74s which were not assembled by Century Arms.
Click to expand...

Arsenal AKs, except for the milled, are all built by the same factories that make AKs for the Russian and Bulgarian militaries. They are imported into the US in "sporting" configurations to sidestep importation laws against certain military pattern rifles. They have original receivers, trunions, bolts, carriers and barrels. Arsenal then converts them back to original configurations with enough american made parts to be legally compliant(922r). Aside from the full auto components they are essentially identical to Russian and Bulgarian real AKs. The american parts used by Arsenal, generally furniture and trigger group, are all top quality. The furniture on Arsenals is every bit as good as that of the Bulgarian AK parts kit i have. Arsenal rivets are also top quality which is an advantage over most at home Saiga conversions.
 
On the accuracy issue, it would seem both the AR platform and the AK-74 platform, in factory configuration firing military ammo, are roughly on par accuracy-wise (in my experience both are around 2 MOA average). However, most people shoot a little better with the AR, since it has better iron sights (longer sight radius, and aperture instead of notch). Also, when it comes to ammo selection there is a lot better/more accurate ammo available for 5.56, and when you get into reloading, there is a LOT more bullet and brass selection for the 5.56. Also, there aren't really any after-market barrels available for the 74, short of custom made ones, whereas with the AR there is a very wide selection of barrels as well as other parts. It is easy to free-float an AR... not so easy with a 74. Also there are a variety of drop-in triggers for the AR that are superb... not so easy with a 74. You MIGHT be able to give it as good of a trigger pull as a top shelf AR trigger, but once again it would have to be a custom job.

So in short, they have about the same accuracy potential from the factory, but there is a lot more you can do to improve the AR.

The reason the AK doesn't win competitions has more to do with the fact that it is not very optic-friendly, the manual of arms isn't as quick, and it is much less customizable with handguards, etc... though accuracy is a consideration too.
 
Yeah, no, they don't. If that were the case, you'd see people using AKs to win rifle competitions.
Click to expand...

In my experience, an off the rack Arsenal AK74 with military surplus ammo will hold its own against an off the rack Colt 6920 with military surplus ammo. There is certainly much more one can do to improve the AR's accuracy which would certainly give it an advantage in many types of competition.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit surprised you don't get better accuracy out of your Colt, though. In most cases, even bone-stock M4-style rifles with surplus ammo should shoot around 2MOA.
Click to expand...

2 MOA is very doable with Saigas in my experience. When people start talking about accuracy with ARs they seem to be referring to that of high end guns with high quality ammo and fail to account for the fact that ARs run the gambit as does the ammo that may be shot out of them. A saiga will not keep up with my Noveske or other free floated ARs with high end barrels. Of course, neither will a lot of other ARs. ARs do tend to have sights that are more conducive to accurate shooting than the AK open sights. My experience is that using a 4 MOA aimpoint and shooting from field positions with wolf ammo accuracy isn't noticeably different between my Novekse and my .223 saiga. They same is true when shooting other makes of AR with surplus brass ammo. If I want to change things and shoot for absolute accuracy the Noveske can surely blow it out of the water.

The AR is the better gun for 3 gun and the like and I think much of it is for reasons apart form accuracy.

I may have missed it but what is the OP's purpose for this gun and what type of AR is he looking at. I have said for a while now my preference in guns is:

1. Nice AR
2. Nice AK (saigas, veprs, etc)
3. other AKs
4. Other ARs

If the gun is a range blaster then a decent AR or a decent AK with both be fun and the cheaper ammo of the '74 could swing things. If it is a competition gun then a good AR is hands down the winner. If it is a self defense gun then either could work but my preference is the order listed above. Before I could every say AK or AR I need to know what AR we are talking about and the intended uses.

One thing to consider is a lot of money can be spent on an AK, that was originally bought to save money, trying to give it the feature of an AR. In fact the cost can quickly exceed the price of a very serviceable AR.

This is exemplified by something I find curious, the fact that the Suarez people after years of deriding the AR and trumpeting the AK, and bemoaning any one for "trying to turn an AK into an AR" have finally taken to doing just that. If you look at what they are doing these days they are basically trying to make an AK have the features of an AR. They have gone to using 5.45 guns. They are trumpeting the TWS rail and either ultimak gas tubes or now the TWS hand guard with top rail. Basically this is an expensive way to try and get a flat top and a quad rail. They are putting magpul stocks on them and replacing the commie muzzle devices with US flash hiders. There is a lot of discussion as of late about how to add folding BUIS.

Lets run the prices:

Saiga in 5.45: approx $330

Basic conversion w/ parts Suarez trumpets: $200

TWS dust cover: $150

TWS hand guards and top rail: $270

Thread barrel: $50-100

Flash hider: (we will say a cheap A2) $10 (but could be $80 for a vortex or the like).

Stock adapter: $90

CTR stock: $90

Basically you are now looking at a $1200 AK that still falls short of a similarly priced AR in a number of respects.

I'm not against updating AKs but I think from an economic standpoint if one wants the features of an AR they should get an AR.
 
One advantage I see with the AK is very cheap ammo.
Click to expand...

Wolf .223 is the same price per 1000 as Wolf 7.62x39 so cost is not an issue if you are willing to shoot equal ammo "quality". The AR benefits from better ammo a lot more than the AK does.

The only cheaper AK ammo is 5.45x39 corrosive surplus and no telling how long the supplies will last. Wolf 5.45x39 is about $10-20 per 1000 more expensive than the .223 or 7.62x39.

I like them both. AK is about as simple as rugged as can be. AR sets the standard for modularity -- lower (legally the gun) can have many different calibers.

Flip a coin, odds are you'll buy the other eventually :)

This is exemplified by something I find curious, the fact that the Suarez people after years of deriding the AR and trumpeting the AK, and bemoaning any one for "trying to turn an AK into an AR" have finally taken to doing just that.
Click to expand...

Whatever the market will bear. Personally other than some kind of optic to accommodate my aged eyeballs I'd rather not have a gussied up AK. IMHO the Ultimak is the best setup overall, with the TWS rail system best if you want a scope, but I find few AKs really benefit form a scope over a red dot.
 
I have a Colt 6720 and a Russian Arsenal 74. The 74 with surplus mil ammo, 7N6, is pretty much the same and the 6720 with M855 in the accuracy dept.
Click to expand...

there is something seriously wrong with your colt.
 
Wally, 5.45x39 is some of the cheapest rifle mil surp out there. And while 7.62x39 and 5.56 may be the same price for wolf, I will not shoot wolf through and AR. Only time I've ever tried it, it was a jam-o-mattic. Probably just buy m855, or m193 for the AR.
 
start reloading for it

500 very high quality hornady 55g fmjbt.............40.00 bux
apprx 1.3 lbs of hodgdons h322........................30.00 bux
500 cci small rifle primers................................20.00 bux

range brass in .223 is plentiful and free

500rds of extremely high grade, sub m.o.a. very clean shooting .223........ 90.00 bux
 
I will not shoot wolf through and AR. Only time I've ever tried it, it was a jam-o-mattic. Probably just buy m855, or m193 for the AR.
Click to expand...
Then it was a defective AR.

If an AR won't eat steel cased ammo I'd first look at the chamber: It's probably tight, rough, not chrome lined or nitrided, or some combination of those factors.

I'd also look at the extractor & related small parts. Is the claw sharp & hard, or is it soft and/or chipped? After that, there are some tiny upgrades, unlikely to be the real problem, but they can improve reliability - especially in AR carbines. Is the spring the old style 3 coil, or the new 5 coil? Does the spring have the hard rubber insert, and Crane o-ring surround?
 
I've lots of both. The best AK, my current Saiga wil on occasion shot 3 shot groups about 2.5 inches at 100 yards, but usually shoots 4 moa with flyers. There is no way to predict the flyers so it cannot be called a 2 or 2.5 moa gun. My AR always shoots under 1.5 moa, no flyers. While both are acceptable they are not the same. The experience of others might vary some but no one has been able to verify publicly at a real match that any AK is equal to any AR both in good stock condition with decent typical factory ammo. It is easy to make claims, take you guns to matches and let's see.
 
I'll say this, I was shooting a Arsenal AK-74 today (converted Saigia) back to back with my BCM, and was drilling a little plastic reactive target at 50-60 yards with boring regularity with both.

The 74 had ZERO recoil to speak of, just none. Noticiably less than my midlength with a rifle buffer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
Romanian AK-74 vs Red Jacket Converted Saiga
Replies
5
Views
834
Hizzie
H
D
  • Locked
AK-74
2
Replies
44
Views
2K
Jenrick
J
S
  • Locked
Ar..ak 74..ak47
Replies
15
Views
765
Adam123
A
A
  • Locked
AK-47 vs AK-74 . Thoughts or opinions anyone ?
Replies
21
Views
2K
wford
W
S
  • Locked
AK-47 vs AK-74... the future of 5.45... and the KING of assault rifles
2
Replies
39
Views
6K
Evil Monkey
E
Back
Top