Samual Colt ruined it for me

[Smaug]

I'm sitting here reading the Wikipedia article on him. He was QUITE the character! A marketing genius, even if his morals were questionable sometimes.

He introduced the phrase: "New and improved"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Colt

↑ Give it a read when you've got a half hour or so. I guarantee it'll make you smile, if not laugh out loud.

Why did he ruin it for me? A gun I've always wanted is a Colt King Cobra. However, I just read that he built a factory in England making is SA revolvers. DA revolvers were beginning to be demanded, for obvious reason. He refused to make a DA revolver and lost a huge opportunity. He closed the factory and sent the parts and machinery back to his CT factory.

I think it was well after his death by the time his company started making DAs. I don't really care for SA revolvers except as they relate to old westerns. What to do? Buy a S&W 686 instead, I guess. (or a vintage S&W with the partial lug barrel, maybe)

I wonder what ol' Sam Colt would think of what his company is doing today?

 

[BigBlue 94]

The fact that he went bankrupt multiple times during his life, and that Colt is still a top tier firearms producer, 180 years or so later, would likely make him proud. I would be.

Henry Ford was much the same way. His preference towards the model T nearly ruined the company once other manufacturers were producing more refined cars.

 

[Smaug]

He also rejected his gunsmith who suggested “bored through” chambers. to allow cartridges loaded from the rear.

That guy quit a year later. Then S&W tried to build bored through cylinders but violated another Colt patent in the process. Yikes!

 

[BigBlue 94]

He also rejected his gunsmith who suggested “bored through” chambers, to allow cartridges were a good idea.

That guy quit a year later. Then S&W tried to build bored through cylinders but violated another Colt patent in the process. Yikes!

Those days were so tumultuous! That man was Rollin White. Bored through cylinders were not for cartridge guns, but to simply make the production process of the cylinder easier. Then he sold exclusive rights to S&W. Colt's 1873 was the first Colt to use the bored through cylinder as the patent had expired.

 

[Mizar]

Have you seen an older double action mechanism, have you tried to repair one? Before Jean Warnant introduced his DA mechanism some time in the 70's, they were a mess! Fragile, prone to come out of time quickly and a PITA to repair and adjust to correct timing. This is the reason why all major US arms manufacturers were slow and hesitant to adopt them, not "shortsightedness".

 

[Smaug]

Have you seen an older double action mechanism, have you tried to repair one? Before Jean Warnant introduced his DA mechanism some time in the 70's, they were a mess! Fragile, prone to come out of time quickly and a PITA to repair and adjust to correct timing. This is the reason why all major US arms manufacturers were slow and hesitant to adopt them, not "shortsightedness".

Didn’t the limies go with them from them on, even rejecting early autos?

 

[CraigC]

Sam Colt was long dead before DA revolvers or cartridges became a thing. It had been less than 30yrs since he modernized the revolver.

Those days were so tumultuous! That man was Rollin White. Bored through cylinders were not for cartridge guns, but to simply make the production process of the cylinder easier. Then he sold exclusive rights to S&W. Colt's 1873 was the first Colt to use the bored through cylinder as the patent had expired.

The patent expired in 1869 and Colt produced cartridge conversions along with the 1871-1872 Open Top cartridge model before the 1873.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Sam Colt was long dead before DA revolvers or cartridges became a thing. It had been less than 30yrs since he modernized the revolver.



The patent expired in 1869 and Colt produced cartridge conversions along with the 1871-1872 Open Top cartridge model before the 1873.

Learn something every day..!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

He also rejected his gunsmith who suggested “bored through” chambers. to allow cartridges loaded from the rear.

The 'gunsmith' was Rollin White. In those days, factory workers were often contract workers, rather than direct employees. I seem to recall White was making barrels. Metallic cartridges were just beginning to become popular as an alternative to muzzle loaders. White came up with the idea of a revolver that could automatically load itself. One of the features was the chambers were bored through to accept cartridges, but that was a minor consideration.

White cobbled together a prototype to show Colt. This is it. It was a monstrosity and did not work, no wonder Colt passed on the idea. This is a photo I took of White's prototype from Roy Jink's book History of Smith and Wesson. The barrel was not bent, that is just the way the photo came out.






Later, White patented his idea himself. This is his patent drawing. Patent drawings were interesting in those days. The drawing only had to illustrate the concept, it did not have to address whether or not the device would actually work.






This patent drawing is more to the point. Gone are the ridiculous self loading features, what this drawing concentrated on was the cylinder with chambers bored through to accept cartridges.






Daniel Wesson, working independently came up with the same idea for a cartridge revolver; chambers bored though to accept cartridges. But when he did a patent search he found out that White had already patented the idea of cylinders with bored through chambers. Wesson attempted to buy the rights to White's patent, but White was adamant and would not sell the rights. Instead a contract was signed which authorized Wesson and his partner Horace Smith as sole licensees of White's patent to manufacture revolvers with bored through chambers. White was paid a royalty of $.25 for every revolver that S&W manufactured. But Wesson had cleverly written into the contract that it was White's responsibility to police the patent against patent infringements. There were plenty of infringements, and White spent most of his money on lawyers defending his patent.

Smith and Wesson went on to make small cartridge revolvers that were very popular. While not as powerful as the big Cap & Ball revolvers of the day, they were much quicker to reload. The biggest revolver S&W made at that time was the 32 Rimfire #2, Old Army Tip UP.






The White patent was due to expire in 1869, if I recall correctly. White applied to Congress for an extension on his patent. Congress authorized the extension, but President Grant vetoed it because he was so annoyed about White's patent preventing large caliber cartridge revolvers being manufactured during the Civil War.

 

[StrawHat]

…The White patent was due to expire in 1869, if I recall correctly. White applied to Congress for an extension on his patent. Congress authorized the extension, but President Grant vetoed it because he was so annoyed about White's patent preventing large caliber cartridge revolvers being manufactured during the Civil War...

Grant also was annoyed at S&W because they basically controlled the patent. Grant believed that had S&W relaxed their grip on the patent the war would have ended sooner and lives would not have been lost.

The Springfield Arsenal had a working prototype of the Springfield Single Shot Rifle but the War ended before they got it into production.

Kevin

 

[CraigC]

Grant also was annoyed at S&W because they basically controlled the patent. Grant believed that had S&W relaxed their grip on the patent the war would have ended sooner and lives would not have been lost.

As I recall, S&W tried to extend the patent and was denied for that reason.

 

[Mizar]

White's patent concerns only revolvers, not breechloading firearms in general which already existed and were readily available by that time in the US, so I find it a little bit hard to believe that a cartridge revolver itself would help to end the war sooner. Not to mention that there was a significant deal (about 11 000) of LeFaucheux M1854 revolvers in the US Cavalry. So I tend to look at Grant's statement a little bit on the anecdotal side of the things - a formal excuse of sorts...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

As I recall, S&W tried to extend the patent and was denied for that reason.

S&W did not own the White Patent, they were licensed to produce revolvers with bored through chambers that would accept cartridges. Although Daniel Wesson offered to buy the rights to the patent, White did not sell the rights, only licensing S&W to use the idea of the patent. White received a royalty of twenty five cents from S&W for every revolver they manufactured.

In those days a patent was good for 14 years, and could be extended another 7 years. White's patent was due to expire in 1869. White applied for an extension, but it was denied.

White lobbied congress in 1870 for extension of his patent, claiming he had not been adequately compensated. Congress passes the Rollin White Relief Act in 1870 and sent it to Grant for signature. Grant did not sign it, mostly based on the recommendation of Chief of Ordnance Alexander Brydie Dyer. Dyer claimed that White's patent litigation during the Civil War was "an inconvenience and embarrassment" to Union forces for the "inability of manufacturers to use this patent". When Grant did not sign the bill, it died. White continued trying to get Congress to extend his patent, but gave up in 1877.

 

[Speedo66]

"Congress passed the Rollin White Relief Act..."

I guess then, like now, grease enough politician's hands and almost anything is possible.