San Francisco PD dumps Beretta

[another okie]

Sounds like their firearms officer wanted a SIG and thought up a way to get one.

SIG stands for the German words for "Swiss Industrial Group." It is a large conglomerate for which firearms are a minor business. I don't know what the current situation is with SIG firearms, but it is possible they have sold the trade name as far as firearms are concerned to a German company.

 

[Kaylee]

saying that there were issues with some of the Berettas that could have a minor effect on accuracy.

Given some of the California cops I've seen practicing for their next qualification, I'd say it's a safe bet that most of 'em won't notice any "minor effect on accuracy."

Dude, try and keep it on the paper, m'kay? You're the one who's supposed to be protecting me here...

(And no, I don't mean that as a slam on our LEO members here... I'd say y'all know you're a whole other league from a lot of your compatriots when it comes to firearm use)



All that said, I'm guessing this "keyholing" they noticed ain't the guns at all.. but rather muzzle blast pushing the paper target (at close range on an indoor range) such that the follow up shot enters at an angle, making it look as if the round is keyholing. Took me quite a while to figure out that little tidbit with my Vaquero once upon a time. And it makes a lot more sense than a whole lot of Berettas with lousy barrels.

-K

 

[Mr. Kook]

Well, at least the guns aren't being destroyed. That means we'll be finding a bunch of slightly used Beretta tradeins on the net and in the shops here soon. I don't see how this is a bad thing at all for the gun community.

As far as the anti-gun wench Renne, well, there is no cure for idiocy.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Parra said. "We are always looking for the finest tools to give our officers ... this is an upgrade," he said.

I knew it ! Guns ARE JUST TOOLS ! The good deputy chief of admin. said so.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

There is strong evidence in a lot of cases that gun manufacturers are not limiting their sales to the Police Department

I think she's referring to the trade-in pistols here.
Still stupid, but not quite as bad.

 

[DTLoken]

Ummmm is not Sig a GERMAN company??

No.

 

[sturmruger]

Hell, I will call my rich uncle and give them $400K for 2000 Berattas.

If I am doing my math correctly they are only getting around $70 a piece from Sig for the Berattas.

People are always talking about doing group buy. We only need 1500 THR members. I am sure some of us will take 2 or even 3 at that kind of a price. That would be the largest group buy in history. We could probably get CDNN to organize it. They could charge us like $15 for the paperwork to make it worth their while.

 

[Mikul]

Keyholing?
I can get ANY gun to keyhole if I use the right (or is that wrong) ammunition. I doubt there's anything wrong with those Beretta.

Kaylee's right, minor accuracy problems wouldn't be noticed by most officers. When you've watched a female officer dump half of her magazine into the dirt and then watched her brag about it, it pretty much drives the impression home.

 

[Carnitas]

I think everyone shoudl call her and urge her in the strongest terms not to do the deal w/ Sig. She should only be doing business with a firearm mfgr that refuses to sell civilians.

 

[cracked butt]

I wish gun companies would stop doing business with government entities that have or will sue them.

Guns keyholing? Sounds like poor maintenance or as someone else mentioned, paper being ripped by muzzle blast.

 

[Guntalk]

"Boycott SIG!

How dare they sell guns to such anti gunners"

NO! We must boycott the Internet, for carrying such an anti-gun story!

 

[PrudentGT]

Wow. Where to begin? I really don't see how putting a different company's name on the tube that the bullet passes through is going to solve some imaginary keyholing problem. Maybe they use cheap ammo during training?

They're giving up perfectly good Beretta 96's, when most SF police shootings involve dozens of rounds with few to no hits (having nothing to do with the quality or accuracy of the firearm)... I think money is changing hands somewhere off the books, or somebody's buying political favors with SF's money.

 

[Mannlicher]

the whole thing sounds bogus to me. I have NEVER heard of a Baretta keyholing. There is certainly no design flaw that would have all of the examples doing that even if one example did.

 

[loudernhel]

Mannlicher,

It's pretty common when a gun becomes unpopular or politically unfavorable with a police department that it sudden becomes "unsafe."

As an example, Portland PB just pulled all its .45 ACP Glocks after they had some kabooms with some questionalbe ammo. Suddenly the Glock 21 is no longer fit for police use even though dozens of departments use them with no problems. You'd think the PB would take a hard look at the Federal Hi-Shok rounds they were using at the time right along with the gun but that hasn't been the case.

The rumor I heard is that there's an element that wanted the whole bureau to be carrying the more politically correct 9mm so they seized on this as their oppurtunity.

 

[twoblink]

SF...

Berettas...

 

[GSB]

Police said the problem was a phenomenon known as "keyholing." Examiner research found that keyholing is the failure of a bullet to remain balanced in flight so that it enters the target sideways, leaving an elongated opening

Funny, I have a Beretta (and a SIG for that matter) and this is not an issue for me. But then again I occasionally actually run a bore snake through the thing.

 

[Handgunr]

Funny........

I carried the Mod 96 on duty for a goodly number of years, and as my dept. firearms instructor pounded thousands of rounds through it in the process.
I never once in all that time, ever remembered ever having a round keyhole.
My Mod 96 was probably one of the first few thousand released from Beretta, so I would've thought if there was a problem with them, I'd have seen it then.
I agree.........(keyholing) it sounds like an excuse to change to another (butt kissing) company that's closer to "politically correct" than most.

Well, I guess the West Coast way of thinking is that cops have to have weapons because of all those guns in the hands of ignorant regular folks like you & I.
So therefore, it's a necessary evil.

California reminds me of the movie "Demolition Man". All those airheaded, unrealistic, bunny/tree hugger types, that really don't have a clue and live in a fantasy world all their own......
Very, very bizarre........until something happens to them that wakes them up.

Bob

 

[ahenry]

…Took me quite a while to figure out that little tidbit [moving target from muzzle blast] with my Vaquero once upon a time. And it makes a lot more sense than a whole lot of Berettas with lousy barrels.

We use Berretta 96’s and I am not a bit surprised to hear that SF PD is going to move to another weapon due to poor quality. The list of problems we’ve encountered with our 96’s is as long as my arm, and includes faulty barrels. Additionally Berretta has gone from giving their contracts good customer service to no customer service at all. I have no idea if the barrels of the PD’s weapons are truly faulty or not; its possible that the firearms department has been monitoring problems for a while and this is just the one issue that the decision makers think can garner the most public support. Whether that is the case or not SF PD is, in my mind, making a much needed move.

 

[George Hill]

SF has got to be the nuttiest city in North America.

 

[fastbolt]

You know, I don't work for SFPD, but the guys that DO work on their range staff are well respected folks within the L/E firearms community in the Bay Area.

I'd already heard about this situation, and what they'd been going through trying to resolve the concern.

I hope nobody's really picturing them as some agency where a fellow might wander up to the firing line, hang a paper target up to flutter in the breeze, fire a round, and then say "Well, Goooollllyyyyy ... There must be sumpin' wrong with this gun!"

Imagine for a moment that the firearms staff working for a hypothetical large agency might have the interest, knowledge and experience to try different ammunition, in different pistols, in the hands of different shooters, on targets properly placed on target backstops, at various distances ... and then ... imagine that they might further consider the possibility of checking pistols which exhibit a potential problem to see if there's a serial number/production connection ... and even imagine for a moment that they might realize that they could consider replacing parts on various pistols, including the barrels, and see if the problem is corrected ... and whether the "condition" follows any particular part, like say, a barrel, when it's placed in a different pistol ... and then imagine that they'd realize they could, and should, attempt to identify & resolve their concerns with the manufacturer.

And then imagine that more than one firearms manaufacturer occasionally has "issues" arise with pistols purchased by L/E agencies ...

 

[odysseus]

SF

...has a lot more problems than switching from Beretta's will solve. One of the largest problems is that the PD is run by managers who are careless with management and spending, only for their own crazy agendas. The people get what they deserve. There are so many nut house factions there, I barely can stand a short visit there.

Louise Renne is another example in a long line of SF politicians of saying a lot of hype for their liberal base to gain attention. It's all a game of trying to get the spotlight; look at their new mayor Newsome wasting stupid money on what, gay weddings??? The city is plagued by filth and dirt with no one cleaning it, the homeless problem is epidemic and essentially now an apendage of the city, and the cops are nowhere to be found. S.F. is certainly lost much of the luster it had, and now to me is often found to be a large contradiction of beautiful historic buildings and mega business skyrises along with disturbed youth, homeless drifters, drug dealers and porno outfits. That used to be isolated and has grown out to the home districts. It's a zoo. You actually can feel safer in Manhatten dare I say then a lot of areas of S.F.

 

[gunsmith]

Zoo York Versus Bagdhag by the bay

SF and NY cops seem to leave folks alone that aren't trying to get busted.
I think that is alot better then some little PD's that are so bored they spend all their time ticketing folks going 2mph over the speed limit and busting teens making out in cars. I have a few friends in SFPD and their all good guys not looking to make life hard for decent working folks,they have tons of crackhead speedfreak idiots to bust.
Most of the older SFPD are pro gun but not real active in gun rights.

 

[twoblink]

There is certainly no design flaw that would have all of the examples doing that even if one example did.

I find the Beretta to be a design flaw after another.. But I'm going to put my money on betting it's probably the poor training and not the guns..

SF... someone forgot to put a big padlock on the insane asylum...

 

[XLMiguel]

Dummies, there's nothing wrong with Berettas. OTOH, going to SIGs is a nice 'upgrade' (your tax dollars in action )

FWIW, the Swiss have some stringent laws against exporting arms, hence the relationship with German firm of J.P. Sauer and Sons know as SIG-Sauer. Der Germans manufacture SIG guns under license and then export them to where ever, or they set up domestic subsidiaries (i.e. SIGARMS in NH) to manufacture or assemble guns in country. HTH.

 

[WhiteKnight]

Police did consider selecting Sigs guns at the time, but Beretta was a more competitive bidder.

aka "cheaper"