Sand & Mud: Which Would Function Better - Garand or M16?

[SharpsDressedMan]

It just occured to me that the M16 and Garand, a hot topic for a favorite, need to be compared with regards to some "battlefield" conditions. I think the Garand would be far superior to the M16 in harsh conditions. This is important in a fighting rifle, but not so much for people who never take a gun into Harm's Way (match shooters, casual shooters, etc). Anyone with hands on experiences with the M16 or M1 Garand in combat where severe conditions have affected the weapon?

 

[conhntr]

I own both and in addition to the aspect sharps brought up the garand is WAY more solid.
Not only for bayonette and club usage but just if it is dropped or bumped the garand is just less prone to damage

 

[Hangingrock]

I can’t speak to the M1 or M16. My experience was with the M14 in Vietnam USMC 64-68. As for the M16 research 9th Marines 1967 Hill Fights 861 - 881N & 881S. The M16 of that period was problematic

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

an m-16 has never been rendered non functional by being rained on. The same cannot be said for the garand.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Garand

Only because it'll make a a better club when rendered non operable my sand, mud and other crap getting in the chamber and bolt raceways

 

[conhntr]

Andrew I'm sure that's not true. If an m-16 sits out In the rain for a month it will be nonfunctional. I'm sure somwhere in Vietnam one was left behind a battle and was eventually rendered nonfunctional from rain

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,884292-2,00.html

The board assumed "that troops have landed through light surf [as Marines must often do] and that rifles were dropped or dragged over wet sand in reaching cover on the beach." The rifles were exposed to saltwater spray (but not actually soaked in water), dropped in wet sand. Results: the Springfields fired "in the normal manner." But "the bolts on the two [Garands] could not be opened by hand after the first and second shots respectively. The firer had to stand up and use his foot against the operating handle in order to open the actions. Both [Garand] rifles ... failed this test."

 

[Col. Plink]

If I had to guess I'd say the direct impingement M16 would foul easier, and would far sooner from powder blast. The long op rod of the Garand keeps the action from fouling due to use (though not outside goop of course).

 

[Joe Demko]

Read history, do not base your conclusions on old movies and TV shows. The Garand, Thompson, BAR and other hallowed arms of yore ran into problems in both North Africa and the Pacific Theater due to sand. The gas operated Garand and BAR, during WWII, ran into further problems due to lots of ammunition that were mistakenly loaded with naval black powder. The recoil operated Browning MG's and the Johnson rifle and LMG could cycle this ammunition.
Later, in Korea, the Garand, BAR, Thompson, et. al. failed to function due to inhumanly low temperatures.
Now apologists will tell you that all this was the result of improper PM by troops in the field; which is true. The catch is that the same can be said of M-16 series failures.
It doesn't matter what the gun is. If you don't take care of it, it will choke.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

The question was mud and sand. We can cover rain later.

 

[taliv]

read this thread, then read it again.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432922

 

[R.W.Dale]

The question was mud and sand. We can cover rain later.

Don't know bout where you live but round here rain and mud typically go hand in hand

 

[iamkris]

We had a "Lest We Forget" reenactment here last year. 2 beach landings simulating D Day and a Pacific landing. The reenactors ran out of landing craft, jumped into pre-dug shallow trenches for a beach battle. I saw several reenactors kicking the op handle of their Garand because they were fouled up.

The Garand was a fine weapon but it wasn't invincible. I thing the M16 gets more bad press than it deserves and other former US military arms get less. It's easy to view the past with rose colored glasses.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Here in Ohio, we get rain, but we don't get mud in our rifles unless they get closer to the ground. I guess mud can go airborne, as sand sometimes does. Rain just seems to run off my rifles if I carry them right. The previous thread regarding service in Iraq and Afghanistan reassures me that our current crop of M16's seem to handle the sand issue well for our troops. Still looking for hands on comments from M1 users, and the few negative comments in the other thread from the M16 guys seem to say that mud is worse than sand, so this will be interesting if it gets some in-depth info from the real grunts.

 

[taliv]

afaik, the few negative comments in that other thread were due to improper maintenance. at least two mentioned running them dry because uncle sam failed to provide lube (edit: and magazines)

 

[Tim the student]

I don't recall any malfunctions with my M4 from mud - but that is something I avoided at all costs. I've had the exterior pretty muddy, but the guts were still fine. (Yes, sometimes it does rain like hell in Iraq, if you didn't know. Snows on occasion too.)

I did trip bad once, and bury my muzzle in mud that surely would have lead to more than a malfunction should I have fired it. (Yes guys, I did try to protect my rifle at all costs, but it still happened.) As an aside, you can fire fine with the plastic muzzle caps on - but they are one time use if you do. I forgot the reason, but I didn't have one on then, obviously.

I'll be real interested in hearing from guys that have used an M1 in nasty conditions. I'm sure as heck not taking mine out and rolling in the mud with them! I'd think the oprod may negatively affect the M1 in these conditions.

I have a book called something along the lines of "Infantry Weapons in Combat" that I'll have to look at tonight. Maybe there will be some beneficial stuff in there.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Joe Demko: It doesn't matter what the gun is. If you don't take care of it, it will choke.

Well...not an AK

 

[R.W.Dale]

Yes even the AK

An AK is a mechanical device made from steel and wood that has moving parts that must move freely to function. They aren't crafted by orcs and trolls laboring in the fires of Mt Doom. They will fail if abused and not cared for.

 

[Ithaca37]

Yes even the AK

An AK is a mechanical device made from steel and wood that has moving parts that must move freely to function. They aren't crafted by orcs and trolls laboring in the fires of Mt Doom. They will fail if abused and not cared for.

What? My life is based on lies?!?

I appears I have nothing more to live for.

 

[TechBrute]

I read on the Internet that every gun the military has previously used is infallible (as long as it was .30 or higher), the the current issue rifles jam on every third shot in every rifle, and the bullets bounce off thick clothing at any distance.

 

[Tim the student]

Just to clarify, is that winter clothing, or black jammies, and is the .30 carbine included in the infallible category?

 

[FTSESQ]

Even though I am a black rifle fan, my gut would say Garand because the 30-06 generates a lot more rearward force on the bolt, which would (I think) over come any debris in the action better than the .223. But that's just me figure'n

 

[HorseSoldier]

Lot easier to jam that open action on a Garand full of crap and gunk.

 

[CathyGo]

My M16 at basic performed just fine even after mud exposure as long as it was wiped down that night and kept relatively wet(LOTS of CLP) till then. It's when the mud was half dry/tacky that you might as well resign yourself to cleaning it cause it sure wasn't going to fire worth anything. Only thing you could do is shotgun it and give it a fast wipe down.

Uncle sam sucks at providing us with lube at all, let alone the proper types. CLP is a death sentence to a weapon in sand. Run it dry or with a dry lube.

 

[Al Thompson]

Run it dry or with a dry lube.

Actually, the extreme dust tests conducted by the .mil indicated that lots of lube is better - allows the dust to run off. I don't care for CLP either. Rather use Mobil synthetic or Slip 2000.

OP, there is a book by Martin Russ about his service in Korea. He was an armorer in the USMC. He despised the Garand - liked the BAR.