M1 Garand...a missed opportunity.Why the .30-06 Garand was a mistake

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Until you have dealt with the “user” you have no idea just how resistant to change is the military mind. They are very conservative, they stick to what they know, and you have to force them to change. Let me summarize how they think about hardware: they like what they have, they want something better but only a little different, and they totally reject revolutionary change. Pointy sticks had to be wrestled out of the hands of Troglodyte Infantry, and until the day they died, retired Troglodyte NCO's complained that the replacement stone tip spears were never as good as their old pointy sticks.

You want to hear them complain: change the uniform. Change the fatigue hat to a beret, change from brown shoes to black shoes, change the camouflage pattern, change the outfit. Howling cats are positive music compared to what you will hear. I worked for a retired Marine. In his opinion the Marine Corp had gone to hell in a handbasket because now, the uniform had the name of the Marine above the pocket. Before, no name; a Marine was a Marine was a Marine. Now that everyone has a name, they are all individuals, and the Marine Corp is no longer any good as a fighting unit.

All the reasons created not to change, were variations of all the reasons ever invented to maintain the status quo. Any person, right now, can come up with many reasons not to do something; don’t think the clever minds at the top of the Army food chain could not also come up some really good sounding reasons to do nothing, all of which are excuses to stay with the familiar.

Besides the Infantry, you would have had the Frankford Arsenal guys complaining about the costs of change. Changing cartridges would have been an additional work burden. There would have been legions of groups all loudly providing reasons why a change of caliber was bad, because in the final analysis, it would have required them to do more work. When a group does not want to do something, forcing them to act would have been financially painful. Do not doubt that passive-aggressive behavior exists within the Ordnance Department.

I think the 276 Pederson group lost their champion. Someone up high recognized that a change of caliber was needed, but that person was not in a position of influence long enough to push the change through. The next bunch, they decided to “do nothing”, and the do nothings can find a million and one reasons to “do nothing”.

The 276 Pederson was a lost opportunity, it was the right cartridge at the right time, and the Army totally flubbed it. The consequences of missed opportunities are never good, in the end, the 308, the short 30-06, was replaced by a cartridge inferior to the 276: the 223.
 
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Until you have dealt with the “user” you have no idea just how resistant to change is the military mind. They are very conservative, they stick to what they know, and you have to force them to change. Let me summarize how they think about hardware: they like what they have, they want something better but only a little different, and they totally reject revolutionary change. Pointy sticks had to be wrestled out of the hands of Troglodyte Infantry, and until the day they died, retired Troglodyte NCO's complained that the replacement stone tip spears were never as good as their old pointy sticks.

You want to hear them complain: change the uniform. Change the fatigue hat to a beret, change from brown shoes to black shoes, change the camouflage pattern, change the outfit. Howling cats are positive music compared to what you will hear. I worked for a retired Marine. In his opinion the Marine Corp had gone to hell in a handbasket because now, the uniform had the name of the Marine above the pocket. Before, no name; a Marine was a Marine was a Marine. Now that everyone has a name, they are all individuals, and the Marine Corp is no longer any good as a fighting unit.

All the reasons created not to change, were variations of all the reasons ever invented to maintain the status quo. Any person, right now, can come up with many reasons not to do something; don’t think the clever minds at the top of the Army food chain could not also come up some really good sounding reasons to do nothing, all of which are excuses to stay with the familiar.

Besides the Infantry, you would have had the Frankford Arsenal guys complaining about the costs of change. Changing cartridges would have been an additional work burden. There would have been legions of groups all loudly providing reasons why a change of caliber was bad, because in the final analysis, it would have required them to do more work. When a group does not want to do something, forcing them to act would have been financially painful. Do not doubt that passive-aggressive behavior exists within the Ordnance Department.

I think the 276 Pederson group lost their champion. Someone up high recognized that a change of caliber was needed, but that person was not in a position of influence long enough to push the change through. The next bunch, they decided to “do nothing”, and the do nothings can find a million and one reasons to “do nothing”.

The 276 Pederson was a lost opportunity, it was the right cartridge at the right time, and the Army totally flubbed it. The consequences of missed opportunities are never good, in the end, the 308, the short 30-06, was replaced by a cartridge inferior to the 276: the 223.
I agree with your last paragraph. The M-14 is far superior to the M-16, and qualifies as a true "battle rifle." (The AK-47 is more of an "assault rifle").

Also, the .30-06 or .308 are better choices for "battle rifle" calibers. The M-16's .223 caliber is a "varmint rifle" caliber.

Kudos to the thread starter, who really did extensive research and supplied us with great background information.

Heck, I thought this thread was going to be about a disgruntled Johnson Rifle fan !:)
 
I agree with your last paragraph. The M-14 is far superior to the M-16, and qualifies as a true "battle rifle." (The AK-47 is more of an "assault rifle").

Also, the .30-06 or .308 are better choices for "battle rifle" calibers. The M-16's .223 caliber is a "varmint rifle" caliber.

Kudos to the thread starter, who really did extensive research and supplied us with great background information.

Heck, I thought this thread was going to be about a disgruntled Johnson Rifle fan !:)
Thank you very much for the kind words. The whole point of my post was to get people to think about what might have been and how history repeated itself 20 short years later.It was also to debunk the most commons objections as to why it wasn't feasible which I have tried to do with as much research as I could mixed in with a little common sense and speculation.I hope it has been as interesting a read as it has been educational in researching the history to back up my hypothesis.

For those with a love of history please check out those links to the Bureau of Ordnance histories it really is interesting to see how the logistical miracle that made the US win the war came together and I have only begun to dig into the supply book lol

They say the one true test of another mans intelligence is by how much he agrees with you. lol
 
I agree with your last paragraph. The M-14 is far superior to the M-16, and qualifies as a true "battle rifle." (The AK-47 is more of an "assault rifle").

Also, the .30-06 or .308 are better choices for "battle rifle" calibers. The M-16's .223 caliber is a "varmint rifle" caliber.

Kudos to the thread starter, who really did extensive research and supplied us with great background information.

Heck, I thought this thread was going to be about a disgruntled Johnson Rifle fan !:)

M14 far superior to the M16? :barf:It has few superior attributes and many more inferior attributes for a rifle intended for use in combat.

I admit to using the term "battle rifle" occassionally because it was conveniently descriptive. I now think that was a mistake. The phrase "Battle Rifle" is really just a code phrase used by 7.62x51, M14, FAL, etc. apologists to dismiss the M16 as being only partially capable for combat. For heavens sake even a minimal amount of effort to do some research quickly finds evidence many knowledgeable people rightly realized long ago the so called battle rifle cartridges are too powerful and inefficient for what they need to do. 5.56 may not be the best answer all the time, but it is more times than 7.62. Will this M14/7.62 nonsense ever go away?:fire: It is not even the best of the 7.62X51 rifles. :banghead:
 
A very informative OP and a great debate! I love the idea of a Garand with another two rounds in the clip and I agree that MacArthur had a lot to do with killing that option.

There seem to be some here who think a .276 (7mm) will barely fly out of the barrel, while a .30-06 is infinitely more effective. The truth is they are in the same power class and are very much comparable to each other.

As Nom pointed out, the Garand was most certainly a giant leap forward regardless of caliber at a time when most infantry rifles were bolt-action.

I had a whole lot more to add to this discussion, but in the time it took to read the whole thread, I seem to have forgotten most of it!
 
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7.5 French
303 British
7.5 Swiss
8mm Mauser
8mm Steyr
7.62x54R
I think the Japanese and Italians had one of these, too

The prevalence of so many essentially identical cartridges leading up to the conflict probably favored heavily in our thinking (and theirs :p). Doesn't it sound a bit audacious to suggest to a room of generals that bringing a different weapon than everyone else's (and a smaller one at that) to a fight is wise? Like saying "maybe we should rely less on diverse surveillance for ground-level operations and instead provide them tools to perform the function themselves" or something; simply won't go over well with the brass' current mindset regarding the 'integrated battlefield' (the preceding suggestion portion does not reflect my opinion of strategy; it is merely an example similar to what was posed to strategists after WWI)

TCB

Doesn't it sound a bit audacious to suggest to a room of generals that bringing a different weapon than everyone else's (and a smaller one at that) to a fight is wise?

Not at all. That is exactly what the M1 Garand was, an audacious suggestion, when all those cartridges you just listed were being used in bolt actions rifles. It was perfect timing to introduce a new cartridge and rifle combination. This was exactly what John Pedersen was tasked to do by Springfield Armory. There were plenty of '03 Springfield rifles and .30-06 ammunition still around if things did not work out well. As far as all the concerns expressed in this thread about logistical problems; it was a small problem at most for the U.S. Military and the American Firearms Industry.
 
"What should be pointed out is back when the garand was being developed, the US did not have troops stationed all over the globe itching to inject themselves in every regional conflict."

Wow. I just, feel compelled...

-Boxer Rebellion
-Perry's Black Ships
-The Phillipines (and every other Pacific body not claimed by Europeans)
-Big chunks of South America and the Caribbean (not claimed by Europeans)
-Spanish American War
-"Big Stick" diplomacy
-WWI (and Lend Lease as a bonus in reference to 'money thrown at the mil-indust-complex)

America has had its mitts all over anywhere that wasn't already gotten by a larger power --same as any other nation in history. The only reason we had little in the Middle East and Africa is because Europe got there first. The only reason we or anyone else has lost a grip on these places is because a larger power displaced us, be they another super power or upstart locals who decided to make their nation their own. External interests and external power go hand in hand, and external power is the mass keeping us from being swept into the orbits of bodies more massive (there's a reason the French, a country we owe a far greater historical debt of blood and treasure than any other, stopped figuring prominently in our alliances after WWI; they lost their colonies and armies, but the British didn't)

TCB
 
Heck, I thought this thread was going to be about a disgruntled Johnson Rifle fan !:)

Reading the THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT:pROCUREMENT AND SUPPLY I found something I hadn't realized was such a big deal back in the day.That is the Garand/Johnson debate over Marine Corps acceptance of the Garand. I didn't realize the Garand was being criticized that badly for production and early functioning issues. It even went as far as Congressional hearings and the NRA was critical as well.There was even talk about dumping the Garand but all the money that had been dumped into re-tooling SPAR to produce the Garand slow that decision down. I didn't realize the debate was as serious as that and was just a mine is better then yours one lol

Apparently after Garand replaced the original gas traps with the gas cylinder and the Marines tested the Garand vs the Johnson and also the Winchester G30R based on what would turn into the M1 Carbine the Garand won and Congressional and public criticism died off.

Here is another what if.What might have happened had the .30 Johnson was available .vs a .276 Garand? Might the new caliber of hurt the decision to keep going with the Garand or would the added money invested by that time for ammo production saved it?

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article.php?id=25762&cat=3&sub=6&q=2 For more info on the Winchester G30R

20130513_161912_zpse53dd1d9.jpg
How might a rifle like this in .280 fared against the Garand?
 
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In 1934 the army put out the requirements for the competition that left to the B-18 and Congress still bought a limited number of YB-17s because the army decided it couldn't let the B-17 die even thought it lost the competition to the B-18 because it crashed in the last phase of testing because of army pilot error.They put money into the Boeing XB-15 a one off big bomber test bed.S

QUOTE]


I find it odd that the US went for the B-17 instead of the British Lancaster Bomber which outclassed the B-17 in all respects.,
 
In 1934 the army put out the requirements for the competition that left to the B-18 and Congress still bought a limited number of YB-17s because the army decided it couldn't let the B-17 die even thought it lost the competition to the B-18 because it crashed in the last phase of testing because of army pilot error.They put money into the Boeing XB-15 a one off big bomber test bed.S

QUOTE]


I find it odd that the US went for the B-17 instead of the British Lancaster Bomber which outclassed the B-17 in all respects.,
The Lancaster didn't enter RAF service until early 1942 (first flight was 1941) by that time we were already mass producing both the B-17 and B-24.The B-17 was faster had a higher cruising speed and also had a higher ceiling,and of course the B17 was a battle damage sponge where the Lancaster wasn't.The Lanc also used inline engine where we preferred radial engines for the most part.The radial engines were also more battle worthy then inline engines.There were times when whole cylinder jugs were shot off B-17 radial engines and the engine kept running.The B-17 was actually tested with RR Merlin engines in 1943 or 44 but all our production of the Merlins were going into the P-51s by that time and nothing ever came of it.I cant conceive of us using the Lanc in favor of the B-17

Changing production lines for small arms is one thing but changing a production line for airplane production is even more complex.By the time we could of started production (laye 1943 early 1944 were were almost at peak production on our 2 heavies
 
In 1934 the army put out the requirements for the competition that left to the B-18 and Congress still bought a limited number of YB-17s because the army decided it couldn't let the B-17 die even thought it lost the competition to the B-18 because it crashed in the last phase of testing because of army pilot error.They put money into the Boeing XB-15 a one off big bomber test bed.S

QUOTE]


I find it odd that the US went for the B-17 instead of the British Lancaster Bomber which outclassed the B-17 in all respects.,
At the time the B17 entered service the bombers Britain was fielding and planning would all be obsolescent when WWII started in 1939. The Lancaster was a very big modification of the unsatisfactory twin engined Manchester.

The adoption of a .276 Garand could not have been objectively stopped because of financial or logistical problems.
 
Most of the body armor worn by U.S. soldiers is rated to defeat .30-06. The wealthier bad guy's armor is also going have that capability.
Even if body armor could stop a 30-06 I would think the shock to your chest while turning it into a protoplasm malted would kill you anyway
 
Changing production lines for small arms is one thing but changing a production line for airplane production is even more complex.By the time we could of started production (laye 1943 early 1944 were were almost at peak production on our 2 heavies

Standard manufacturing methods of the aircraft industry before and during WWII allowed for quick revisions and changes to an aircraft's design.

Ford Motor Company, who was one of the contractors for the B-24 took big issue with the frequent and rapid changes being made to the B-24. Ford was using techniques more in line with the auto industry that used more expensive tooling than that used of the aircraft industry. Ford and the government reached an agreement that Ford could build a certain number of planes before a new revision was instituted.

But, Fords fabrication and assembly techniques paid benefits when the B-24s were switched from the glass house nose to the nose turret. Many planes were updated after they left the factory and the Ford turrets would quickly and easily mount to the Ford built bombers.

At peak production, Ford was turning out about one B-24 every hour at the Willow Run plant in Michigan. it took several years to reach that rate and the press had dubbed the plant "Will It Run".

Apologizes for diverting the thread.
 
Standard manufacturing methods of the aircraft industry before and during WWII allowed for quick revisions and changes to an aircraft's design.

Ford Motor Company, who was one of the contractors for the B-24 took big issue with the frequent and rapid changes being made to the B-24. Ford was using techniques more in line with the auto industry that used more expensive tooling than that used of the aircraft industry. Ford and the government reached an agreement that Ford could build a certain number of planes before a new revision was instituted.

But, Fords fabrication and assembly techniques paid benefits when the B-24s were switched from the glass house nose to the nose turret. Many planes were updated after they left the factory and the Ford turrets would quickly and easily mount to the Ford built bombers.

At peak production, Ford was turning out about one B-24 every hour at the Willow Run plant in Michigan. it took several years to reach that rate and the press had dubbed the plant "Will It Run".

Apologizes for diverting the thread.
Not at all Ford produced more B-24's (9000 or so including knock down parts sent to other plants for assembly) during WWII then the Brits turned out Avro Lancasters (just over 7k) in roughly the same time frame.
 
Great thread. A couple of thought.

1. Hindsight is 20/20. The biggest challenge you face in studying history is not gathering the facts, but understanding the time and place.
2. I think it is difficult, in this case, to capture the mindset of 1930's military thought and ballistics knowledge based on what they knew at that time. I doubt pigs were going to change opinions.
3. Can you name a weapon that is a perfect?
4. MD-I think you are understating the destructive ability of the 30-06 on materials.
5. I think the advantage of weight is a major factor, and something we learned over time (see 5.56). This would have been an obvious advantage of the .276.
6. As for logistics, in hindsight we were in control of our logistics for most of the war. But again that is hindsight. What if we would have been invaded? Could we handle it then? Redundancy most certainly would be an advantage in such an environment.
7. Did Macarthur know at the time understand the fate of the ammo in storage?


It is fun to think about, and it very well may have been a better gun in .276. You are basically saying that the transition from 30-05 to .223 missed a step. I am not going to agree or disagree with you and there is not a right answer.
 
M-1 Garand......

I gainsay that we could speculate several "What Might Have Been" 's, and that is not to say we shouldn't. It is good to evaluate past episodes, to see if there were mistakes made or positive consequences occurred.

What we have is history, and we should be able to make plausible assumptions from it.

Could we have had a better "battle rifle" in WWII than the M-1 ? Sure !

Could we have had a much worse one than the M-1 ? Absolutely !

My conclusion is the M-1 was a darn good battle rifle, but it could have benefited from some refinements, i.e. detachable magazine with capacity for 10, 20, or more rounds. The German K-43 (AKA G-43) semi-auto 8mm Mauser with a 10 rd. box magazine, was a step in the right direction.

Keep discussing and keep smiling !:D
 
Great thread. A couple of thought.

1. Hindsight is 20/20. The biggest challenge you face in studying history is not gathering the facts, but understanding the time and place.
2. I think it is difficult, in this case, to capture the mindset of 1930's military thought and ballistics knowledge based on what they knew at that time. I doubt pigs were going to change opinions.
3. Can you name a weapon that is a perfect?
4. MD-I think you are understating the destructive ability of the 30-06 on materials.
5. I think the advantage of weight is a major factor, and something we learned over time (see 5.56). This would have been an obvious advantage of the .276.
6. As for logistics, in hindsight we were in control of our logistics for most of the war. But again that is hindsight. What if we would have been invaded? Could we handle it then? Redundancy most certainly would be an advantage in such an environment.
7. Did Macarthur know at the time understand the fate of the ammo in storage?


It is fun to think about, and it very well may have been a better gun in .276. You are basically saying that the transition from 30-05 to .223 missed a step. I am not going to agree or disagree with you and there is not a right answer.
What exactly has the time and place have to do with the topic at hand? Test were done data accumulated and experts decided a change in caliber was the way to go.

What they knew at the time? What they knew was that studying WWI infantry combat that the .30-06 was over powered in most likely combat situations.After the caliber question was raised when the Pedersen rifle got preliminary approval let to the Pig Board which concluded that the .276 was just as effective as the '06 out to 300-400 yards

I think you over-estimate the '06 anti-material effectiveness.As a anti-aircraft and air weapon is was junk and never used on any of our modern airframes during the war,the .50 proved much much more effective.Against armor it also wasn't effective Against light vehicles and trucks the '06 round couldn't take anything out that a .276 AP round couldn't of taken out either.So exactly what material would the '06 destroy the .276 couldn't?

If we had been invaded? By who? Men from Mars? Germany had no fleet I doubt the Army looked for an invasion from them. The Japanese didn't have the amphibious capability and their army didn't have the troops (being as 80% of their army was tied down in China) to invade us.The army knew this.

Of course MacA had know way of knowing how the ammo we had in reserve was going to be used. But he did or should of known that each round of ammo used for training had to be resupplied with new stock according to the 1920 National Defense Act and that by normal training usage and the slow ramp up of supplying new weapons that restocking used ammo for new .276 stock on a round by round X number of rounds allocated per rifle was feasible and would of actually been less expensive to produce.

I guess without actually saying so in my OP one of the points of the whole article is I doubt we would of ever of even gone to the .223 if we had the .276 in the Garand

The real reason I wrote the article was to debunk the three most favorite arguments why the .276 would of been the wrong way to go.
1 Surplus Ammo supply
2 Commonality of Caliber
3 Logistics

With all humility I think I did a fair job of that.
 
Could we have had a better "battle rifle" in WWII than the M-1 ? Sure !

Could we have had a much worse one than the M-1 ? Absolutely !

My conclusion is the M-1 was a darn good battle rifle, but it could have benefited from some refinements, i.e. detachable magazine with capacity for 10, 20, or more rounds. The German K-43 (AKA G-43) semi-auto 8mm Mauser with a 10 rd. box magazine, was a step in the right direction.

Keep discussing and keep smiling !:D

I wont argue with your conclusions at all Gun I agree completely
 
.......I think you over-estimate the '06 anti-material effectiveness.As a anti-aircraft and air weapon is was junk and never used on any of our modern airframes during the war,the .50 proved much much more effective.Against armor it also wasn't effective Against light vehicles and trucks the '06 round couldn't take anything out that a .276 AP round couldn't of taken out either.So exactly what material would the '06 destroy the .276 couldn't?

Sorry to nitpick, but the .30-06 was used at the very beginning of the war in early models of the P-36, P-39 and P-40 as wing mounted guns, in the radio compartment of early B-17s, in USN bombers such as the SBD, and a few others. Considering that it was soon realized that the even the .50 BMG was marginally sufficient and needed to be replaced by 20mm cannon, the .30-06s destructive capability that some people believe in is unwarranted.

If we had been invaded? By who? Men from Mars? Germany had no fleet I doubt the Army looked for an invasion from them. The Japanese didn't have the amphibious capability and their army didn't have the troops (being as 80% of their army was tied down in China) to invade us.The army knew this.

We were invaded by Men from Mars on the night of October 30, 1938. They landed in New Jersey. The .30-06 proved to be ineffective against them. Fortunately, we had biological weapons that were effective. My grandfather told me he heard all about it on the radio.

I guess without actually saying so in my OP one of the points of the whole article is I doubt we would of ever of even gone to the .223 if we had the .276 in the Garand

It may however have received the same treatment the .30-06 did: reduction in case length, etc.

The real reason I wrote the article was to debunk the three most favorite arguments why the .276 would of been the wrong way to go.
1 Surplus Ammo supply
2 Commonality of Caliber
3 Logistics

With all humility I think I did a fair job of that.

I think that is an understatement and you are unduly humble. You have done a magnificent job. Bravo!
 
Good read. Good points.

Back then everything was better when it was bigger.

Just think of the monstrosity of the Tiger tanks
or the "Elefant" Nazigermany built.

I guess the russians were the only ones with
more economic thinking.

The compact T34 and all those soldiers armed
with Ppsh's ... show some smartness on their part.
(Tiger range: 100km, T34: 500+)
 
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