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Sanrenmu - a chinese Maker with good critiques?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Mp7, Sep 19, 2010.

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  1. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    http://sanrenmu.com/en/foldingknives/series/all.php

    Of course i stumbled around on ebay
    and somehow someone typed "knife" into the search. Again.

    After seeing 2 rather interesting blades i googled around
    and found some very promising critiques in local forums.

    Sure, they copy ... but i´m not D.Trump
    and i need more knives!

    Anyone got any, epxeriences?

    Will probably buy one soon.
    Also found a guy who imports damascus knives
    from india-paki .....

    Sure need more money to buy toys :banghead:
     
  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been too close to too many makers and manufacturers to have any tolerance for supporting thieves stealing other people's designs regardless of how good a bargain they are.

    You're much better off supporting good creative sources than knockoffs if you expect to have quality for the intellectual property thieves to steal.
     
  3. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    ...

    ok. true. As a general direction.

    But, due to the fact that i need to buy knives i :)
    it is likely there will be one of those in the bunch, too.

    Me buying another toy for very little dollars
    till i have the bucks for a Sebenza, which i am
    craving ...... doesnt ruin everything.

    one of those will be just one more in the box ....
    ... and theres trademarked stuff in there already from china.
    But Martiini, Mora, Opinel, Victorinox and a few handmade
    pieces are also supported by my lil addiction.

    If its generic, but good, it comes down to collecting
    knives. I´m just curious of how good a job THEY can do
    nowadays.

    I could have written: Will buy one to see how bad it is!
     
  4. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Not you as an individual with one purchase, but anyone who does chips away. Keep in mind that the Chinese dump thousands upon thousands of these knives into countries who's citizens don't have the money to buy the real thing. They put them in the markets for less than we'd pay purchasing over the internet. That means that WE subsidize their thievery by giving them even more profit.

    If you want to know how good the Chinese are at making knives, buy any of the knives from the company that had a model made in China instead of the knockoff thieves.

    If you gotta buy knives and it doesn't matter what quality you buy, at least by something from the Italians.
     
  5. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    True again.

    But in global practicality ... do you exercise that principle
    on ALL things? If so. Nice you take care AND can afford it.

    Just because we, you especially, are overinformed on knives
    makes it natural to feel strong about those thievery concerns.


    But i would not spend the 20$ on another knife, but on someting
    else ... and when i can i will buy one and more high$$$ pieces
    just because i love to have the original ....

    And people who start the knife-hobby will be infected
    and WILL buy the originals as the hobby grows.

    It´s a market ... and i do not believe it harms
    the share of the highend-Designers.

    ...think Mercedes, ... and upwards.
     
  6. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    I look at it this way: You can keep pissing your money away accumulating junk knives from design thieves, or you can save that money up and buy yourself a Sebenza. The junk knives will never be anything but junk, no matter how big a pile of them you accumulate. The Sebenza is something you can be proud to own and that will retain its value even if you use (not abuse) it.
    If you must buy Chinese, buy from Paul Chen. You will, at least, be buying a step or two up from flea market quality.
     
  7. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    i knew the first-reaction consense would be:

    "You **** don´t buy the crap save up!"

    ...but i´ve just been searching and googling for new toys
    and i am bidding on damascus-knives from india/paki

    ... so i am just saying, i tend to abuse and lose practical knives
    and i carry most of the time. i carry expendables ... and sometimes
    a very simple non lockback from my dad, which is precious .. to me.

    The money i spend to support craftmanship is way bigger than
    i pay for the tools. And i´m willing to abuse it to get todays job done.
    My edc is a tool that i use instead of my teeth
    and bones, which do not "grow back" when they break.

    to pacify ... i am bidding on this now ...
    just found it ... finnish damascus .. puukko-style.

    http://cgi.ebay.de/Damast-Messer-Jagdmesser-Damaszener-Schmiedekuns-H-20-/200520516561?pt=DE_Sport_Camping_Outdoor_Campingmesser_werkzeug&hash=item2eaff443d1

    Current bidding makes me think its from india, too :)
     
  8. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Member

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    Many high end custom makers struggle to make a living doing what they love, designing and making knives. Many of the better know makers license a few of their designs to manufactures like Benchmade, Kershaw, Gerber and many others. When someone rips off their design and has them made in mass in China and then floods the market with them, the original designer can no longer license his design as the manufactures no longer want it.

    In purchasing these knockoffs, you are harming the individual knife maker who has a tough time making ends meet already.

    I don't own any knockoffs and I don't buy from dealers who also sell knockoffs. :barf:

    I was at a knife show with a friend and we spotted some knock off's on a dealers table. We were checking out one in paticular when the dealer said, "that is a copy of Todd Begg's Pantera, eveyone wants one of those".
    My very large friend looked down at the dealer and replied, "I know, I am Todd Begg." The look on the dealers face was priceless. :what:
     
  9. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    Exercise some self control, man. You keep repeating that you just have to buy knives, and I can appreciate that because I enjoy buying knives too, but I won't spend money on junk, be it knives or anything else. I work pretty hard for my money, and I learned a long time ago that spending it on quality items is a far better options than spending it on junk. If you lose knives constantly, then start using a lanyard or something. Nothing wrong with that, I did it all the time in the USMC, and I still do it when I am hunting or fishing or am in some environment in which the activities might mean a knife could reasonably work its way out of my pocket or a sheath.

    Supporting knockoffs by giving them your hard earned cash is stupid in two directions, dude.
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Mp7,

    There are plenty of knives on that page that aren't direct copies of US and European products and plenty that aren't high end, either. I don't even have a problem with pieces that are clearly inspired by the mainstream products. I don't have any problem with a company that looks at the Sebenza and offers something similar in G10 like they have or a micarta handled clip point hole in blade with axis type lock since CRK and Benchmade aren't going to do those variations. It's when they replicate the inexpensive CRKT Kiss or the metal handled Sebenza that I become annoyed.

    Discriminate between something they put some design effort into and the stuff they just knocked off.
     
  11. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    ... thx hso, i wasnt precise in WHAT i wanted to order ....

    acutally i didnt see they had the small and the big sebenza as a cheap copy.
    I saw some others ... clearly inspired by ... designs.

    Me stating that i want a sebenza badly led the wrong way.

    I do not want to buy exact copies ... i just wanna
    have a lil smile at a tool ... b4 it goes to work
    or into a drawer :)

    Everyone´s copying in some way. The chinese
    are not as sophisticated ... stylewise.

    Looked around a bit .. and just got the highest bid on
    this. Damascus Folder ... india i guess. Paid 30ish$ for it.

    [​IMG]

    It´s gonna be oldschool craftsmanship,
    and i cant wait!!
     
  12. conw

    conw Member

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    It boils down to dopamine. Mp7's brain releases more dopamine with lots of little purchases than one big purchase. :p
     
  13. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Member

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    When I first started collecting, I was like many others. Wow factor took over back in the day when Blade Auction existed and I bought some knives that I no longer care about. Then I talked to Patrick at Tad Gear, TAD, back then. He shared some very good advice with me. Buy what you like and buy the very best that you can afford. I listened and realized that one really great knife was much more enjoyable to own that a dozen lesser knives.
     
  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I've thrown out more cheap kewel knives than I currently own knives of quality.

    Think of the money I could have saved (or put into another dozen quality knives).
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  15. John C

    John C Member

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    For some reason, SanRenMu's seem to evoke strong reactions in a lot of folks. I'm sort of puzzled, for two reasons:

    1) the SanRenMu 710 is NOTHING even CLOSE to a sebenza. It's not a knockoff or a copy. It's clearly INSPIRED by the sebenza, but the size, fit'n'finish, and materials are different. I always thought imitation was the sincerest form of flattery. I would feel differently about this if actual technology or processes were stolen in the making of the knife, which clearly is not the case.

    2) People are freaking out about the SanRenMu, but don't seem to be bothered with Springfield XD versions of Glocks, Armscor versions of 1911s, Taurus copies of S&W revolvers. What's the difference?

    For what it's worth, I just last week bought two SanRenMu's, a 710 and a 962 (the one with a Spyderco hole and Axis lock). They're very good knives, for the price. I paid less than $10 each, including shipping. They're on par with similar low price chinese knives that are imported under well-known brand names. Specifically, these knives seemed identical in quality, fit, and finish to some Byrd Cara-Caras that I've handled. This makes sense, because a Byrd knife that retails for $20 probably cost the dealer $10, and the importer probably paid the factory $6 for the same knife. By buying a SanRenMu, you're bypassing the middlemen and paying ~$7 plus shipping, and saving the $10 yourself.

    As I said, the fit and finish a very good, and the blade steel is good quality, but obviously less than "super steel" like VG10 or similar. I bought mine to check out what all the hubbub was about. I'll most likely use them for another week or two, sharpen them up, and give them away to non-knifepeople.

    SanRenMu's are fun to buy, and the value is there, so I recommend buying some to check out. In the long run, though, the other posters are right--buy quality. You won't regret it. When I give my SanRenMu's away, I'm going back to my Browning Ice Storm in VG-10.

    -John
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    :scrutiny:


    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    seb21l.jpg

    I should have phrased it more clearly, "It's when they use cheap materials to copy the Sebenza that I become annoyed."
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  17. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    The XD is functionally different from the Glock on several levels and isn't a Springfield design to begin with. If you want to split hairs, the basic function of the Glock is a refinement (depending on your point of view, I guess) of the Hi-Power. 1911's are made by a ton of people other than Armscor, and legally so given that the patent on that design expired eons ago. Hey, it's legal, and normal. Someone makes something awesome, and the second the patent is out people start making similarly awesome things using similar technology and/or materials and/or manufacturing processes, and often times make the product better than the original. God Bless John Browning, but the average Baer (or whomever) 1911 pistol is a better pistol than an original 1911 if for no other reason than superior sights. I am certain that the same is true with Taurus revolvers that closely mimic the S&W revolvers. Or, as is the case with the Taurus 92, they simply bought the rights to make it by buying both the tooling and the factory that Beretta set up in Brazil.

    Technically, you are right. They are copies, on the surface no different than the SanRenMu knives are. Practically, you are looking at two entirely different cases. Did they license the Spyderhole or the Axis lock? If not, they are breaking the law, and there isn't a court in the land that would say otherwise.

    Incidentally, Spyderco does in fact occasionally grant individual makers the right to use the Spyderhole because it is a trademarked feature of Spyderco knives, even though the patent has expired. In fact, they even came to an agreement with Benchmade to use the round hole on some of their knives.
     
  18. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    IMO, the Chinese are great at low cost/low quality knives. They really have a monopoly on it. I don't know of the middle man you are referring to, as my blades come from America, and I live in America!
     
  19. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Many American companies have followed the rest of the world in having factories in the People's Republic of China manufacture knives for them, as they did with factories in Taiwan and in Japan. Good American knife companies make sure that QA/QC for the knives made for them are used in those factories. Companies like Spyderco have one reliable factory make their Chinese knives so they know the quality will meet Spyderco's requirements. Same for the other US companies that get good quality out of their Chinese manufactured products.

    That doesn't mean that all knives that resemble an American or European knife company's knives are coming from the very same factory that made them for those American or European knife companies nor does it mean that the quality is the same as for those American or European knife companies since the QA/QC levels can be changed for the "customer". It also doesn't mean that there's any "middleman" between here and there to cut out, but it may. I have handled high end CS knockoffs that were, to the best that I could determine by tearing them apart, exactly like the CS knives. They even counterfeited the older style CS boxes and packaging exactly. I suspect that they were "coming out the back door" of the factory that was producing the knives for CS and were truly cutting CS out of the markup. Same for a Cara Cara, but no packaging. I've also handled knives that looked just like American knives at a glance, but on examination were textured FRN instead of G-10 or steel instead of Ti. Blades were usually of some other steel as well. Some of these have had good quality control with good fit and finish. Others were mediocre upon closer examination and had to be taken apart to get the debris left in their mechanisms/pivots, but when cleaned up made for reasonably made beaters. Others were just pretty junk that wouldn't last a couple of month's use and therefore were a waste of money. I've also handled knives that were inspired by a number of designs where the Chinese manufacturer had taken elements from a few American knives and combined them into something that was different. The quality range with them was as I've stated before, good to junk.

    The knife you buy from a Chinese source may be from the same factory that produces knives for American or European companies. It may have the exact QA/QC that the American and European companies OR it may have nothing close to it OR it may come from an entirely separate factory. The one "bright" side to all this is that the Germans taught the Chinese to heat treat and we're teaching them QA/QC so the overall quality of knives made in China overall is coming up, but there's still tons of product shipped to places other than the west that don't "require" it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  20. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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    Conwict was spot on about the dopamine thing.
    Me I'll just wait a year and save little by little as Kevin McKlung or Stephan Fowler grind away for my big fix that just keeps on acoming unto the 3rd generation.
    However them 10-30 dollar knives seem to get more playbill around here :neener:

    Alas what the Blessed Col. Cooper said about (guns) hold true with most things:
    "There are guns for the classes and guns for the masses" :D
     
  21. Black Toe Knives

    Black Toe Knives Member

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    I started making knives because I couldn't afford them. $10,000 later I now have my own Ti Handle Folder. LOL
     
  22. BRad704

    BRad704 Member

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    ^ HAHAHAA... That's funny because I'm sure its completely true!

    I am a bit confused about the idea of copying versus inspired by. To me, those 2 knives pictured just look like single bladed folders. Very common or plain design, so if I were to make a folder, it would likely be simple and similar... but since I have seen those before, am I guilty of copying? It is an honest question...
     
  23. Black Toe Knives

    Black Toe Knives Member

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    The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
    Albert Einstein

    As a knifemaker I handle and look at 1000's if not 10 of 1000s of knives a year. I don't make a knife that is not influence by something I have held or seen. I can draw a knife on a piece of paper of my design and go to a knife book and show where it came from.
    There are very few new idea in the knife world. I don't draw many patterns anymore. the Bowies I just did, I cut them without any kind of pattern. So they were influenced but what I have seen.
     
  24. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    Jim, I know what you are saying, but "influenced by" and "copied" are two different things.

    A third category in this debate, at least in my opinion, would be "tribute" knives. For example, Knifemaker Stabby Bill loves Loveless and so makes a knife that, by design, is a copy of a Loveless blade. No one condemns Stabby Bill because he clearly says "Hey, this is a tribute to something I think is cool and totally got me into making knives, and it is a Loveless design, not my own". For the most part, no one cares because it is probably a one-off tribute and not something intended for repeated manufacture, nor is he claiming it to be his own. It's a copy, but it's a copy with a purpose is what I guess I am saying.
     
  25. Black Toe Knives

    Black Toe Knives Member

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    I think tribute knives are great. It gets you into head the head of the original maker. I have done five Loveless style knives influenced by Edmond Davidson. So they were a copy of a copy of a copy. All five were Integrals. LOL
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
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