Saw an RCBS Summit Press today

[GW Staar]

Mine should be here on Tuesday. I think I'll buy one of those Lee reloading stands for it. As I understand it, it will require a significantly strong steel base for mounting? Does the press handle have to clear the front of the loading bench? What size bolts/nuts does it require to mount up?

Thanks.

The base can be mounted up to 2 1/2" back from the front. Or you can set it further back on a raised platform. Mine will be mounted on my wood bench with 7/16" bolts, washers and nuts..... just as soon as I figure out exactly where I'm going to be happy with it.....drill once....I hope. I'm going to angle mine slightly to fit my personal needs.

 

[codefour]

GW Staar,

Hey, can I please ask that you post some of those awesome tutorial photos that you have done in the past of your new Summit press..? I loved your photo tutorials on the Pro-2000!! I did some of your modifications.

Thanks,

codefour

Edit, I posted my last two minutes after you did your last post... weird.. Im still at work though..

 

[GW Staar]

Codefour, that's the plan. But to be fair I need a little time....to keep my foot dry and the bad taste out of my mouth. Want to do it right. And I'm planning for the worst case scenario...military brass.

I always batch load...safer I believe (easier for me to keep focused). The game plan is to mount the Summit directly in front of my RCBS Bench Swager....Trim Mate behind that....APS hand primer in a holster to the right.

Step 1: The idea being that from a single position on my drafting stool, using a mere 3 lineal feet of bench space, I believe I can quickly & comfortably deprime and size prelubed military rifle brass, deburr the flash hole, swage, slightly touch a bevel to the primer pocket edge (the military reamer), uniform it, and reprime. Result: fully prepped and primed brass ready for a quick trim. (my trimmer setup uses a pilot in the case mouth....so the already inserted primer is safe from brass shavings)

Step 2. (will have to slide the stool to the left of the Pro 2000) Trim/chamfer/deburr on my Automated Forster Trimmer.

Step 3. Returning the stool to the first point, with a seater mounted to the Rockchucker, and a Uniflow just behind it, its a simple matter to charge, inspect, and seat.

The beauty of it is that I can choose not to prime in Step One if I want to load on the progressive. Trimming step two being the same, Step three can be on the progressive...priming, charging, seating for loads already worked up (for calibers I'm set up to load progressively).

Hope to do a video on the Summit featured step one procedure.

--An explanatory note: 1. I want to deburr flash hole before I swage, since bench swagers (Dillon or RCBS) are sensitive to head thickness...getting rid of the burrs inside first just makes sense.

 

[codefour]

GW Starr,

That is pretty much how I load as well. I batch load all my rifle pretty muich the same. Last year, I bought a lube die and it goes in station one of the Pro-2000, sizer die in station two. I love the Pro-2000 because it can cam-over unlike an aluminum-frame press.

I am interested in the summit for precision rifle loading though. Keep us posted please..

 

[stubbicatt]

+1 on a video. Would be really slick.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I am also interested. It sounds like maybe the press they had at the NRA show was not exactly set up right.

I agree a bigger loading room would be better but what I did was buy a mount system and my presses just slide in and out of the mount. This way I keep on press on the bench and the rest out of the way.

Looking forward to your write up GW.

ps: I have a stack of boxes for you. I will be loading more 9mm today so i should free up even more. Slow and steady is my motto.

 

[GW Staar]

Well, I don't know about the show press, wasn't there, but you might be right. Then again mine isn't bolted down yet, so I haven't stroked it under a heavy load. I require 6" long bolts to go through the torsion beam bench, and 7/16" bolts of that size are rarer than hen's teeth on a Saturday. Will have to go to the industrial supplier Monday to get them. The more common 3/8" bolts may allow too much twisting having been forewarned by you on that tendency.

The mounting system you use is a great thing, especially for the way you reload. My bench is dedicated, I'm inherently lazy, so the less I have to heft around those presses the better I like it. I like it all set up and ready, (in the way in your eyes). Plus I don't really have a place not already filled with junk to store the presses. (ok, that's an excuse....I need to consolidate, organize, have a garage sale......true. ))

The real difference is the way we reload. Your "batches" are huge. You've loaded how many 9mm lately? You don't need anything else set up for a month or so right? BTW, what's your round count on your Pro 2000 now?

I don't have that need. Don't shoot as much as you. I might load 50 30-30, using single station, then load 100 .308 on the progressive, then add another 100 .45ACP in that session just so I can shoot a Saturday with my gkids. No organized competitions for me. My "big" sessions are 500 rounds at a time, and that's testing my patience.

On the APS boxes, thanks! But, after reading the above, just how big a stack of those boxes do you think I need. Wonder if and when we will see more APS primers for sale....seems to have pretty low priority with CCI.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

The round count is 322,183 as of this evening. I should really do a 300,000 round write up some day....

Today I loaded about 1000 rounds in a couple of hours. I just rip off the tape off the aps strips and when they build up I count them to know roughly what I did. I work out exact numbers when I box and serial number all of my work.

My current 9mm batch is 2097 rounds but I am still working on it so this batch is not done. I am currently making 5.2 grns of Power Pistol with a 125 grn LRN "small ball" from MBC to 1.066 col with cci500 primers. My previous batch was 1259 rounds of 124 grn Rem JHP's with 6.6 grns of HS-6 and then I have a few small test batches in there.

I would guess I have another 2500 rounds of 9mm to load before I switch back to 38 Supers and 357 Magnums. This year so far it looks like I have loaded around 18,000 rounds but I have not set up my spread sheets to really track that fact. I could but it would take a bunch of queries.

My goal right now I to get a caliber loaded so I can switch over and do another one. I try to work in 2 to 5000 round blocks if I can.

I am not sure on the APS primers and availability. I would bet this fall though. It seems like my perception is the stocks are finally filling back up and so give it a few more months and we should be in good shape. I know I have enough resources to go another year or so before I run out so I am not worrying about it. My goal is to start buying again around Thanksgiving to New year.

My big push is to simplify. I am going to get rid of all of my magnum primers this go and only use small and large pistol primers. I have concluded that they magnums don't do me any good on the rounds I load. I am also thinking about going down to a much simpler powder supply.

 

[GW Staar]

That's flat amazing to me.....I'm just not that dedicated....maybe I have A.D.D...but I get tired of it way sooner than you do....and I'm always looking for a way speed up the process, so my eyes don't glaze over. Yes, wish you would do the 300,000 writeup....sharing what wore out and got replaced, and what didn't. Your 150,000 writeup did a lot to me. Caused me to buy a Pro 2000, caused me to join 4 gun forums, caused me to post reviews and mods....I blame you for ALL of that.

So this batch of 9mm is going to be 5,856 plus the small batches of test loads.
I can not conceive of ever shooting that many 9mm let alone loading that much in a couple of weeks....of course 9mm isn't my favorite caliber...I like .40S&W better, and .45ACP is my favorite pistol. Then again I will never load that much .45 is 2 weeks either....or .357, or .40.

I load and shoot, load and shoot....no mighty stashes at my house. Yeah I understand....I pay more in the long run.

Simplify, huh? Well looking at my bench right now with three presses and a trimmer in 4 feet, it doesn't look simple to be sure. But looks can be deceiving. When you are lazy in the evenings like me (earned the right in the Construction Business) you don't do complicated....that's why my "mods" are always as simple as I can make them.

On the Summit project: I got it mounted....ended up using 1/2" bolts...even had to ream a little paint inside one of the slots. RCBS instructions say to use 3/8", I suggested in an earlier post, 7/16" and planned on that. But I drilled 1/2" and there was too much play....and 1/2" worked...play? Zero! Thank goodness the holes were accurate and plumb or there might have been "weeping and wailing and nashing of teeth" last night...there was absolutely no room for error. If a person uses 7/16" bolts drill the damned hole 7/16"....yes you have to drive it in but it's worth it. I'm still playing with the linkage...did size one .270 case...testing...not effort-free, but not bad. Different muscles used, as pulling the die off the brass is higher up compared to a Rock Chucker. The massive T7 may be less effort than either....don't know.

Will start working on the review, pictures, and video. BTW, I have this nifty .308 RCBS Gold Medallion seater I plan on testing on this thing....including runout on cases and bullets.

 

[stubbicatt]

GWStaar: I received my Summit press. The die plate (the part that slides) is sort of "twisty." I can grasp the casting and twist it maybe 5 degrees left and right. Do I understand that you snug up the two large grub screws on the back of the die plate into that slot to limit this "twisting?" Or is it that the linkage needs to be snugged down to limit this twisting?

The castings are beautiful, as is the machining. As I understand it, this is "Made in the USA," and the quality of every visible part of this press is exceptional. You can tell that whoever assembled it took pride in his work, as the hex headed screws or bolts show no rounding off of the heads which happens if someone doesn't push the hex key all the way into the bottom of the hole. The paint or powdercoating is very uniform. I haven't mounted it up yet, and with the exception of the "twisting" issue, the press seems very nice indeed.

There are only 5 of those wavy washers on mine as well, the main pivot on the die plate where the toggle and the die carrier interface, only has one wavy washer. Each of the "C" shaped linkage pivot points has a wavy washer.

I installed a Lee decapper die and a 308 shellholder, and one of my Lapua small primer pocket 308 brass (with the PPC flash hole) and it all lined up just fine, the decapping pin went through that small opening each time. So I guess alignment is just fine.

What sort of grease to use on the zerk fitting?

Thanks.

 

[GW Staar]

The bolts that go in the vertical slot in the back are not made to push all the way to the back of the slot, they will create friction. (ask me how I found that out) But they need to go in the slot pushed well in, just shy of touching the back....testing all the way up and down. They are "indexers" only to keep the press aligned side to side. Little play, but more play is added in the cap to linkage pivot.

The resulting side to side play is noticable, but some is needed to self-center the case to the die. You can reduce it some by tightening the bolts at the three pivots. Trial and error. Do use calipers when you tighten them so you keep the linkage parts parallel. I tried tightening too much. You will know it when you throw it in a bind. Keep links parallel that's the important part.

Would be interested to know which side on your press the single bow washer came on. I could of swore mine was on the right....took it apart....put it back....decided to move bow washer to the left side....worked better. Now I'm wondering if I just reassembled wrong from bad memory and it needed correction.....wouldn't be the first time.

I had mine apart and so filled the grease reservoir with white marine grease I had at hand. Multipurpose grease ought to be fine. Have not used the zerk yet....but will probably use multipurpose grease in one of these miniature pistol style grease guns.


BTW, many years ago, when learning to love my Rock Chucker, I learned in Handloader Magazine (what internet) that loosening the clip spring holding the shell holder was how you prevented the press from skewing cases to excessive runout. The shell holder in the Summit is held very tight by the spring clip. The side to side play may do away with having to stretch that clip spring. There are disadvantages to having a light hold on the shell holder. If it works I'd rather have the side to side linkage play than a loose shell holder. Well will see once I start testing for runout.

 

[stubbicatt]

Would be interested to know which side on your press the single bow washer came on. I could of swore mine was on the right....took it apart....put it back....decided to move bow washer to the left side....worked better. Now I'm wondering if I just reassembled wrong from bad memory and it needed correction.....wouldn't be the first time.

The washer was on the right on my press, on the toggle to die plate location. There is one each at each of the linkages.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

GW,

Our batches are proportionally to how much we shoot per outing if I recall your comments from previous posts. I go out and think nothing of shooting 700 to 1000 rounds in a morning. So my batches are basically three to four range outings. Isn't that about the same for you?

I will have to do a 300,000 round write up. I just have not got the drive to do it. Right now I would rather load than write up about loading. Since I am behind the curve on loaded ammo, I need to run the press more and run the fingers on the keyboard less.

Back to the SUMMIT:

I am quite curious about the runout issue. Can you make a few rounds and lets us know how it compares to the rock chucker? I liked the grease zerk and have thought about putting one on my pro2000. I find it hard to lube it well.

 

[RainDodger]

I've been loading for decades... my first personal press was an RCBS "Jr." purchased in 1969 (the year is stamped on the top machined surface)... and that was after I'd been using my father's old Pacific "C" press. I've used a lot of different presses since then.

A couple of years ago I bought an UltraMag. I use it strictly for sizing cases and I have to tell you, it is one smooth press. It's a big press as advertised, but it is smooth as butter. The ONLY downside of this press is the long swing of the handle - but that's what makes it so easy to use. You've got a lot of leverage with this press and it makes easy work of sizing even the biggest, nastiest cases. It also mounts with 4 bolts.

 

[GW Staar]

The washer was on the right on my press, on the toggle to die plate location. There is one each at each of the linkages.

Well that's telling....they probably did get it back together right the first time. So I reversed the washer to the right again. Actually does look better even though perfect alignment for the primer pin forced the two "C" linkage parts out of the perfectly parallel state I've been harping on.....what can I say, smooth as a baby's butt.....and now tightening the top bolts and shaft does indeed tighten up the linkage, as talked about in the instructions for seating bullets. Guess I'll leave it on the right.

On the twisting 5 degrees....I don't know how many degrees mine adjusted to, but it's really slight....and I measured with calipers how far the outside of the die actually travels sideways: .005" total, .0025" ea. side of center. That's not bad IMO. My Rockchucker linkage is looser, and my Pro 2000 is too.

GW,

Our batches are proportionally to how much we shoot per outing if I recall your comments from previous posts. I go out and think nothing of shooting 700 to 1000 rounds in a morning. So my batches are basically three to four range outings. Isn't that about the same for you? Sometimes....sometimes I only load a couple out. Put that's not the amazing part....shooting 1000 rounds in a morning is. I'm not that tough.

I will have to do a 300,000 round write up. I just have not got the drive to do it. Right now I would rather load than write up about loading. Since I am behind the curve on loaded ammo, I need to run the press more and run the fingers on the keyboard less.
Of course that's perfectly understandable, maybe you'll have your fill by 400,00 rounds....then you can do a 400,000 round writeup.

Back to the SUMMIT:

I am quite curious about the runout issue. Can you make a few rounds and lets us know how it compares to the rock chucker? I liked the grease zerk and have thought about putting one on my pro2000. I find it hard to lube it well.

Yeah me too. I will do a .308 comparison on runout....post-sized brass, then again after bullets are seated with the Gold Medal Die.

As for lubing the Rock Chucker, I've always used an anhydrous graphite lube by Gunslick (over 40 years worth...yeah it's an old product still made). It has worked so well just rubbing in on the shaft, that using the zerk would have to really be an improvement in slickness or ease of lubing. The Gunslick lasts and lasts....


After I mounted the Summit, the thought entered my mind, that making it drop primers through the bench into a jug would be a 2 hour job at most.....so I went and built it. Now the Summit is the speed king for depriming dethroning the Rock Chucker. I like to deprime/wet-tumble pistol cases.....it's a bling thing.

OK, no more sidetracks....time to do the review thread. You will have to read some of this stuff again in the Review thread...sorry...not going to waste material for it.

 

[stubbicatt]

Yay. I like the press. I still have to locate a grease gun, and figure what sort of grease to use.

I'm very surprised at the very little amount of effort it takes to FL resize.

ETA: Is it necessary to disassemble the press before putting it to use? I would really rather not take it apart if I don't need to do so.

Alignment: The decap pin lines right up with the flash hole, so I don't see any particular need to futz with it and run the risk of knocking it out of alignment. I'll have to figure out what sort of oil for the linkages.

Leverage: I'm thinking the short handle will probably be adequate for even standard full length sizing. I may buy one to try it out.

 

[GW Staar]

ETA: Is it necessary to disassemble the press before putting it to use? I would really rather not take it apart if I don't need to do so.

Alignment: The decap pin lines right up with the flash hole, so I don't see any particular need to futz with it and run the risk of knocking it out of alignment. I'll have to figure out what sort of oil for the linkages.

You have to understand....I get intimate with my toys...want to know exactly how they work and if they can work better. No, you don't need to take it a part if it's working fine now. Mine wasn't...it was noisy and rough....I'm glad I got it and not you. If your press feels too loose, you'll want to tighten things up a bit. You'll find that the tightness of each nut affects alignment and smoothness. If your linkage is looser than you want you will have to experiment. You have 4 nuts to play with. Just notice the effect of tightening each nut one at a time. 1. What direction the casting (holding the die) goes for each one, and test it for alignment. 2. What effect it has on friction in the linkage and the ram.

For example, tightening The top one (with bow washer on the right) moves the casting to the right. So if that moves it out of alignment (did on mine), counter by tightening the top left linkage to bring it back. If it won't, loosen the first one a tad while tightening the other. It's not hard to tune.

 

[stubbicatt]

Now that I have sort of played with it a bit, I notice that the die plate naturally comes to rest rotated, as viewed from the front of the press, to the left. I can tug it over to the right to the limits imposed by the grub screws in the rear of the shellplate, but upon release, it returns fully to the left. All slides easily over a 308 casing to resize, and when using a Lee decapper die, the decapping pin readily goes through the flash hole without bumping on anything, so I guess it is aligned ok.

I wonder what oil for the linkages, and what grease for the zerk fitting? Probably a drop of 5w30 ought to do the job, and generic automotive lithium grease.

ETA: My nearly 90 year old father has a 1940s grease gun with grease in it of approximately that vintage. I just pumped 3 or 4 pumps into the zerk fitting, and cycled the handle a few times, and it really quieted down the sound of the dieplate dragging across the tool marks on the ram. The press is absolutely silent in operation now. Additionally, it just seems "tighter" for lack of a better word. I think I'm really going to like this press!

Second ETA: This afternoon I resized half dozen 308s and 1 7.62x54r. The x54r had significant dimensional issues in that the shoulder of the chamber in which it was fired was very long. I screwed the RCBS sizer die in until it touched the shell holder, and then 1/4 turn more. Didn't even touch the shoulder on the case. I continued to screw it in further, I should have kept track of how far, but it had to be at least 1 turn and maybe 2 full turns further into the dieplate. With SIGNIFICANT cam over, the die set the shoulder back where it was supposed to be.

Then I grabbed a half dozen .mil machinegun-fired 308 brass. I measured the shoulder on one of them, and it was about 15 thou too long. I did the same drill, insert the sizer die until it touches the shellholder, and thread it in an additional 1/4 turn. Didn't even touch the shoulder. I did keep track sort of this time, and ended up threading the die in approximately 1 1/3 extra turn until the shoulder was setback to minimum. From there the drill is the same as always, sort of unthread it maybe 1/8 turn per .002" shoulder measurement, and then sized the rest of the cases, all of which came out PRECISELY at the same measurement using the Stoney Point comparator. I was excited to see how precisely the shoulders were set back, all the same, as I have been using a Lee Turret press until now, and I get about .003 variance in shoulder measurements with the Lee press.

So, traditional die setup on this press does not work. You gotta thread the FL sizer die in about 1 extra turn after you touch the shell holder to get complete sizing

I'm not sure I fully understand the implications of all this. I haven't tried to seat any bullets yet, but I wonder how this behavior will affect bullet seating depth consistency?

GWStaar, do you have a recommendation for an oil to put a drop on the pivots? Thanks.

Third ETA: 6/22 @0812 hrs: This morning I noticed tremendous deflection in the "ram" while resizing. I checked the bolts on the base and on the top of the ram and all were quite loose. Taking a hex key, I snugged all all those bolts down, plus the linkage pivot bolt on the right side of the toggle, and started over. Now I get full resize when I thread the die in 1/2 turn after touching the shell holder. This is a significant improvement as I see it. So I tried snugging that pivot bolt a little bit more, and got that rasping sound as the dieplate reciprocates up and down. So I loosened it maybe 1/8 turn and all was well again. The dies still line up and the press seems to be less "springy."

I haven't tried to resize my high quality Lapua brass yet, which only needs maybe .002" setback on the shoulder. I am reluctant to try to set the shoulder setback dimension on the .mil brass, and then run a Lapua in there, for fear that the shoulder will be excessively setback. So I will back the die out, and slowly turn it in until I begin to touch the shoulder, and set the die at that point, I guess. I think too I might just get a bushing FL die, and use that for my target brass, and leave the FL die for use in my "military styled sporting rifle."

I dunno.

I still haven't tried to seat any bullets with the press.

 

[GW Staar]

RCBS's own instructions says gun oil. That sounds reasonable to me.

Extreme cam over is interesting....must be that much vertical play in the linkage. I did notice that the top bolt holding the top casting to the linkage system uses a smaller diameter bolt than I would've thought they'd use. Actually thought about looking for other sizes, even metric, but cam over works best if the press is centered first...case to die. It may be true that the play there actually helps alignment. The question is...was it a needed "fix" to the original design?

I was called out of town this weekend (family business) so I'm in a hold pattern until I get back. stubbicatt, your review is great keep it coming.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Yes, please keep up the comments. I am fascinated to hear about the loose bolts and screws. I did not expect it would be an issue but obviously it is.

 

[stubbicatt]

Talked to a young lady at RCBS this morning. Told her of my experience, including the tightening of the bolts, and the requirement of a 1/2 turn of turn-in with FL rifle dies, she says that is "normal." Well, OK!

 

[GW Staar]

Well that's telling....they probably did get it back together right the first time. So I reversed the washer to the right again. Actually does look better even though perfect alignment for the primer pin forced the two "C" linkage parts out of the perfectly parallel state I've been harping on.....what can I say, smooth as a baby's butt.....and now tightening the top bolts and shaft does indeed tighten up the linkage, as talked about in the instructions for seating bullets. Guess I'll leave it on the right.

OK, no more sidetracks....time to do the review thread. You will have to read some of this stuff again in the Review thread...sorry...not going to waste material for it.

Sorry....more sidetracks.....just have been too busy this week. In starting some of the testing, I found that on my press at least, mounting the top bow washer on the right just plain doesn't work.

Was testing .223 and couldn't get a reliable "poke" through the flash hole with the Lee Universal Deprimer. I found that with the washer on the right the linkage would not line up with the shell holder unless the play was ridiculous. Looking at the alignment visually from the front (die against the shellholder) it was off...obviously off. So I moved the stupid bow washer back to the left and all was well. Go figure. Plus when I tightened up the play and adjusted the arms PARALLEL (yes....the bow washer moved back, made parallel arms doable and made me feel better about the linkage system). The die now stays centered...in perfect alignment with the shell plate! The picture below illustrates the alignment...before the die was to one side!!! This adjusting may be more than some customers would put up with, but the results (coming) may make it worth it. Stay tuned, we will see.

 

[codefour]

GW Staar and stubbicatt,

Thank you both for the updates.. They have been very informative. I too am a tinkerer. I was thinking of ordering a Summit press just to tinker with it and figure it out! Yet, $250+ is a lot of $$ that can buy components. I am not frugal when it comes to reloading equipment but I want it to work out of the box as well. But, I like the concept. The shortened stroke of the depriming operation seems worth it. I deprime all my brass before I clean my it.

stubbicatt, look into investing in a Pro 2000 progressive press. It is expensive compared to a turret or a single stage but so very worth the money. It is the best kept secret of the reloading industry.. I took Peter M. Eick's and Gw Starr's word on it before I bought the Pro 2000. I loaded on friend's Dillons and the Hornady AP before I bought the RCBS and I have no regrets getting the Pro 2000! RCBS customer service is second to none..!!

 

[Peter M. Eick]

As soon as I clear off the forums, I am looking forward to an afternoon out of the heat and behind the pro2000. I want to knock out about 2000 9mms today. Great press.

Back to the Summit.

So GW, can you give me a list of the changes you have done to the summit to get to where you are at today?

 

[stubbicatt]

GW Staar and stubbicatt,

stubbicatt, look into investing in a Pro 2000 progressive press. It is expensive compared to a turret or a single stage but so very worth the money. It is the best kept secret of the reloading industry.. I took Peter M. Eick's and Gw Starr's word on it before I bought the Pro 2000. I loaded on friend's Dillons and the Hornady AP before I bought the RCBS and I have no regrets getting the Pro 2000! RCBS customer service is second to none..!!

CodeFour, I appreciate your suggestion, and should I ever be in the market for a progressive, I will certainly consider it. As it is, I shoot so rarely anymore, and when I do it is for my ersatz tactical bolt rifle (a/k/a 308 hunting rifle) and soon my custom 6.5x47, that I just don't need such a press right now.

I had a Dillon 1050 a few years ago, and loaded a metric ton of ammo on that thing and I still have 308 and 223 loaded on that press I haven't shot up yet. I do need to start loading 9mm again... I guess I can use my Lee Turret Press.