SBR laws: Why?

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Hey guys,

Somethings been on my mind for a while. In regards to short barreled rifles (SBRs), how come there is a law about them?

Are they afraid of SBR's being too concealable? What about pistols, they are much smaller? What difference does it make if my AR pistol has a stock on it? Or if my AR lower has a 11.5 bbl on it?

Im just confused as to the reasoning behind this law. I know theres an uncountable number of nonsensical gun laws, however I was just curious about this one.

Thanks for any info.

 

[Tommygunn]

Are they afraid of SBR's being too concealable? What about pistols, they are much smaller? What difference does it make if my AR pistol has a stock on it? Or if my AR lower has a 11.5 bbl on it?

*SIGH*

You have to remember it's the government. They don't have to be logical, they simply have to be.

 

[beerslurpy]

The NFA originally banned handguns, but that part died before the bill got passed. The end result is that a bunch of "smallish" weapons are banned for basically no reason at all.

 

[LAR-15]

Read here:

http://www.nfaoa.org/resources.html

There are resources in there somewhere about the NFA that will tell you why.

Please note handguns were also part of the NFA but removed.

 

[bluecowdawg]

just more

gov. Common Nonsense:banghead:

 

[Prince Yamato]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing this morning. You can buy an AK pistol, but if you put a stock on it, you go to jail for 10 years. STUPID... but the law is the law. I honestly believe that AWs will come up again at some point on a campaign and the issue will be squashed once and for all. Following that I predict some candidate realizing that being pro-gun is actually politically GOOD for them and then deciding to buck the trend, will scrap all the NFA laws (probably everything stopping just short of destructive devices- ie grenades). I mean, in theory, it would be EASIER to just wipe out laws, than write new ones. I honestly believe that people are becoming more pro-gun in general (CCW laws anyone?) It's as simple as changing perspectives. With more women getting into shooting, don't you think that they're going to want rifles that are more compact? I bet they'll see a Class 3 Krinkov and say, "hey I want that". How could a politician legislate against that? It's discrimination against women. Funny that people in liberal pockets like NY and LA think that they're right while the WHOLE rest of the country is wrong. It's like they never took a look in the mirror and realized, "Maybe I'm wrong?"

 

[AJ Dual]

Yep, handguns were going to be NFA, when it was realized that was too "extreme", they were removed from the bill.

SBR's and SBS's were included to close a "loophole" and keep people from "manufacturing" substitute handguns out of non-NFA longarms. When handguns were dropped, the SBR and SBS provisions were kept, either by oversight, or because they were also independantly associated with "crime" in the minds of the authors.

 

[LAR-15]

The reason handguns were removed is a lot of people complained that they did not want to bother with getting permits to travel through the various states they might have to (if a state required a permit) while carrying a handgun for protection.

The original NFA really dealt more with interstate transportation than anything else, trying to keep felons from fleeing from state to state with firearms.

See the link I posted above for congressional testimony on the NFA.

Carrying a 1911 in a shoulder holster under one's jacket is just plain handy and was so in 1934 as well.

Further attempts to add handguns to the NFA were made as well.

 

[lamazza]

well as long as folks keep paying the $200 to own a SBR I doubt it will change

 

[Evil Monkey]

I believe the NFA was created to add more time in prison for criminals like Al Capone, MG Kelly, Bonnie & Clyde, Pretty Boy Floyde, and the rest of them.

When they caught the criminals, they can add more years because the perp had a stock-less tommy gun with a forward pistol grip (AOW), sawed-off whip it gun (SBS), sawd-off BAR (SBR), most importantly alot of these were classified as MGs anyway, so no registration? PRISON!

 

[NukemJim]

I believe the NFA was created to add more time in prison for criminals like Al Capone, MG Kelly, Bonnie & Clyde, Pretty Boy Floyde, and the rest of them.

Uhmmm... Ok, Could you please explain the $200.00 tax on gun that might cost $10.00?

Actuallyl I've had it explained to me several times by laywers that it was against the law to have a tax on something so high that the tax stops people from getting that item but I've never understood their explantions and it sure does not stop the .GOV .

Also as many other posters have mentioned that handguns were supposed to be NFA firearms as well.

If it looks like a duck, squacks like a duck, flies like a duck and swims like a duck it's probably a duck unless you can explain why it is not a duck.


NukemJim
PSIf you want to nail criminals with more (sometimes any) time in prison sic (SP?) the IRS on them or OSHA they are getting worse every year.

 

[gezzer]

The end of prohibition meant the layoff of lots of to be .gov employees. The NFA act helped keep them employed.

At the time when women had first got the vote the socialism of the USA started. First ban on Drugs started then came alcohol and next firearms. The Alcohol took a constitutional amendment but the other two never happened but has been continued for the good of the children. </rant> :banghead:

 

[Nightfall]

Seems pretty simple to me. Shorter barrel = less velocity. Less velocity often means less damage. Ergo, very short barrel rifles for all bad guys, please!

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Yes as we all know shortening the barrel makes a rifle 10...no 20, times more powerful!!!
It's buried under 200' of government bureaucracy, none of which makes sense. It never gets any attention because bad guys DON'T USE LEGAL NFA WEAPONS so the laws stay on the books.
"A bunch of law abiding American citizens want their rights back" just doesn't make as good a news story as "A man found a cinibon that looks like the virgin Mary" apparently.

 

[Librarian]

Uhmmm... Ok, Could you please explain the $200.00 tax on gun that might cost $10.00

A member of the Ways & Means Committee questioned why the proposed law used the tax stamp strategy of the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1906, instead of a complete ban on machine guns. Attorney General Cummings, who wished to have a comprehensive ban, admitted that Congress lacked the authority.

If we made a statute absolutely forbidding any human being to have a machine gun, you might say there is some constitutional question involved. But when you say, "we will tax the machine gun" and when you say that "the absence of a license showing payment of the tax has been made indicates that a crime has been perpetrated", you are easily within the law. [National Firearms Act, “Hearings Before The House Committee on Ways and Means”, 73rd Cong. 2d Sess., (1934), 18-19.]

via Clayton Cramer.

Also,

In the 1934 hearings, Attorney General Homer S. Cummings explained in detail how the NFA would be based on the tax power. National Firearms Act: Hearings Before the House Committee on Ways and Means, 73rd Cong., 2d Sess., 6 (1934). Cummings denied that machineguns could be banned, because "we have no inherent police power to go into certain localities and deal with local crime. It is only when we can reach those things under ... the power of taxation, that we can act." Id. at 8.

When Congressman Harold Knutson asked "why should we permit the manufacture, that is, permit the sale of the machine guns to any one outside of the several branches of the Government," Congressman Sumners suggested "that this is a revenue measure and you have to make it possible at least in theory for these things to move in order to get internal revenue?" Id. at 13 14. Cummings agreed: "That is the answer exactly." Id. at 14. The following dialogue ensued:

Attorney General CUMMINGS.... If we made a statute absolutely forbidding any human being to have a machine gun, you might say there is some constitutional question involved. But when you say, "we will tax the machine gun," ... you are easily within the law.

Mr. LEWIS. In other words, it does not amount to prohibition, but allows of regulation.

Attorney General CUMMINGS. That is the idea. We have studied that very carefully.

Id. at 19.

The National Firearms Act was originally passed as a taxing statute under the authority of Nigro v. United States, 276 U.S. 332, 48 S.Ct. 388, 72 L.Ed. 600 (1928). See National Firearms Act: Hearings Before the Committee on Ways and Means, supra, at 101 02, 162. Upholding the Harrison Anti Narcotic Act, Nigro noted:

"In interpreting the act, we must assume that it is a taxing measure, for otherwise it would be no law at all. If it is a mere act for the purpose of regulating and restraining the purchase of the opiate and other drugs, it is beyond the power of Congress and must be regarded as invalid....

276 U.S. at 341, 48 S.Ct. at 390. The Court added:

Congress by merely calling an act a taxing act cannot make it a legitimate exercise of taxing power under § 8 of article 1 of the Federal Constitution, if in fact the words of the act show clearly its real purpose is otherwise."

Id. at 353, 48 S.Ct. at 394.

The committee reports on the National Firearms Act mention the constitutional basis of federal jurisdiction. The House Ways and Means Committee report, which the Senate Finance Committee report repeats verbatim, explained the basis of the NFA in part as follows:

In general this bill follows the plan of the Harrison Anti Narcotic Act and adopts the constitutional principle supporting that act in providing for the taxation of fire arms and for procedure under which the tax is to be collected.

Rept. No. 1780, Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives, 73rd Cong., 2d Sess. 2 (1934); Rept. No. 1444, Committee on Finance, U.S. Senate, 73rd Cong., 2d Sess. 1 (1934).

United States v. Rock Island Armory, Inc., 773 F.Supp. 117 (C.D.Ill. 1991) (Word .doc)

 

[Third_Rail]

Would it be out of the realm of possibility for an individual to pay the tax on manufacture for a number of SBR/SBS and then sue for the return of the money based on the absurdity of the laws?

 

[dfaugh]

Following that I predict some candidate realizing that being pro-gun is actually politically GOOD for them and then deciding to buck the trend, will scrap all the NFA laws (probably everything stopping just short of destructive devices- ie grenades).

I wish...The unfortunate fact is, that once a law is on the books, it rarely gets rescinded. The AWB went away, because it had definite lifespan, and the politicians were smart enough to let if die. Except in NY where I live ^%$%^&$#$%.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I wish...The unfortunate fact is, that once a law is on the books, it rarely gets rescinded. The AWB went away, because it had definite lifespan, and the politicians were smart enough to let if die. Except in NY where I live ^%$%^&$#$%.

Yep. Chippin away.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

Following that I predict some candidate realizing that being pro-gun is actually politically GOOD for them and then deciding to buck the trend, will scrap all the NFA laws (probably everything stopping just short of destructive devices- ie grenades).

i dont think any candidate running for federal office would actually run on a "making machiene guns legal again" platform if he seriously wanted to win the election.

the media would crucify him. mainstream America would not vote to scrap NFA laws, since most of them already believe machine guns are illegal anyway.

 

[Byron Quick]

The end of prohibition meant the layoff of lots of to be .gov employees. The NFA act helped keep them employed.

There were a bunch of new laws passed by Congress in 1934. Many of them had the effect of keeping federal agents employed when they couldn't run after booze any more. Under the table New Deal legislation really, middle of the Great Depression...the surplus federal agents were desperate to avoid the soup lines.

 

[Prince Yamato]

In my post, I meant that SBRS, SBS, would probably be repealled first. Machineguns are probably going to be the last thing repealled. I know there's a lot of nay-sayers out there, but I think these laws have had their day. Also, no politician would run on legalizing machineguns, but they could run on reapealling NFA laws (like the Libertarian and Constitution Parties do). 4 years ago, none of us would have thought the AWB would sunset. Guess what, it did. Much as the antis want to ban guns over a gradual period and take baby steps to do it, I say we take gradual steps to REPEAL the laws. It's surprising how effective using the enemy's techniques against them are.