SBR's, braces, and the ATF

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CoalTrain49

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I was just over at the legal forum reading about the latest ATF letter about braces. Because I don't know enough about SBR's I elected to stay out of that discussion and post here and get up to speed.

The brace looks to me like a work around to get to something like a legal SBR or an enhanced pistol. Everyone knows that pistols don't have "braces" so I guess I don't get the concept of a braced pistol. That's not to say they shouldn't exist, I just don't understand why they would be an advantage over a true SBR. If they were they would be marketed to the military and LOA's.

I understand that the ATF says you can own a SBR, you just have to submit a form, buy a stamp and carry it when you carry your SBR. No big deal except some states won't let you own an SBR. That has nothing to do with the ATF however. I'm not a huge fan of federal agencies but it looks like there is more restrictions coming from the states than the ATF. CA comes to mind here with about 12% of the US population. When you throw in the rest of the states that ban SBR's that's a pretty big hurdle.
 
The brace looks to me like a work around to get to something like a legal SBR or an enhanced pistol.
There's debate about SIG's original design intent, but that's exactly what the vast majority of buyers purchased it for.

Everyone knows that pistols don't have "braces" so I guess I don't get the concept of a braced pistol.
Well, that's not exactly right. The idea here was that an AR-15 "pistol," which is heavy and long compared to any normal handgun, could be shot one-handed as a pistol a whole lot more easily if a strap-on brace was added to take the pressure off the strong-side wrist. The idea was marketed especially for use by folks who've suffered amputation of one hand or arm, as they'd have an even harder time using these guns without a supporting hand. So the brace IS a brace, and the ATF ruled (and still agrees) that a pistol may have a brace attached for just such purposes.

That's not to say they shouldn't exist, I just don't understand why they would be an advantage over a true SBR.
They don't have physical advantages over an SBR's stock. Setting aside the patented and ATF-approved use as a brace, the advantage for someone who wanted to use it as a stock is that for a time the ATF said that shouldering it as a stock DIDN'T make it an NFA "Firearm" so you could have a stock-like item on your "pistol" without going through the NFA registration paperwork.

A perfectly legal work-around to one of the restrictions of the hated NFA. ***

Except now the ATF has re-evaluated the situation, taken another look at the wording of the law, and issued a clarification to say that shouldering this, instead of using it as a brace the way it was designed, patented, and approved, DOES make it an NFA Title II "Firearm." Since going through that paperwork anyway doesn't make sense, using these braces as stocks is becoming a pretty un-appealing idea.





(*** -- Sort of akin to how a "Slidefire" stock or a 3MR trigger for your AR-15 is a perfectly legal work-around to the NFA restrictions on machine guns, via at least simulating full-auto fire.)
 
The SIG brace is designed for the shooter's arm to go through the brace and grip the pistol grip. It was designed by a veteran to allow his friend, another vet, with no or limited use of one arm to be able to shoot an AR pistol. The ATF approved the brace as designed and intended, and they said that using it differently didn't change the design and intent. They've since rescinded that ruling and now say that alternate usage constitutes a change in the design, AND that any such alternate usage creates the manufacture of an SBR.

The problem with the tax stamp on SBR's is that it all came from the NFA of 1934. The SCOTUS upheld the NFA shortly after it was passed reasoning that full auto firearms, shotguns with bbls less 18", rifles with bbls less than 16", and sound suppressors (silencers) were not in common use by the standing military or the organized militia (the national guard), so they did not need to be available to the general public as part of the unorganized militia.

As defined in 10 U.S. Code § 311 all able bodied males between 17 and 45 years of age who are US Citizens or who have made a declaration of intent to become US Citizens are members of the unorganized militia.

So, now everything that was restricted under the NFA of '34 is in common use by the national guard and the standing military. However, we haven't yet been able to get he NFA of 34 repealed nor struck down in court. The SIG brace was a way around the unconstitutional restrictions on the ownership of SBRs and SBSs. SIG is suing the ATF though, so stay tuned.
 
I just wanted to add that while the Sig Brace was (while it was allowed) not a perfect substitute for an SBR (I've heard it was a pretty lousy stock), it at least was a substitute that made SBR-type firearms available to folks in the 11 states that don't allow for SBR's.

So I was disheartened when I read that the Tech Branch changed their mind and said that using the brace (As a stock) re-designs the firearm. I was hoping to build a pistol with a brace since I live in Iowa and can't SBR. :(
 
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IANAL, but to the best of my knowledge, the ATF's contention that shouldering the SIG brace "manufactures" an SBR has not been tested in court, and the ATF has not had an opportunity to argue in court that holding a pistol with a SIG brace one way is legal, but simply holding it a different way is a felony.

Until some case law is established, we don't really know - and I mean know - that how one holds a gun legally constitutes manufacture or redesign, turning an unrestricted item into an NFA item.

And - if shouldering a SIG-braced pistol "redesigns" it into an SBR - does lowering it from your shoulder RE-re-design it into an ordinary pistol? And if you shoulder it again, is it RE-re-re-designed back into an SBR? And so on and so on . . .

(And no, I am NOT volunteering to be the test case.)
 
Hank's right. But it almost hardly matters. No one wants to be a test case, and now they've said that they can charge you for this. The ruling effectively makes this a crime until/unless someone has the time and money and mix of good and bad luck to get charged, get convicted and fight this for about a decade all the way up to the US Supreme Court, with all the millions of dollars in legal fees that will cost.

In the mean time, if you do this and they arrest you for it, you're a felon and in jail and/or destitute, but maybe only for the next 10 years or so ...
 
There was a time that I contemplated buying the Sig with the brace because it looked like a workaround for the SBR regs. I'm not going there anymore for the reasons stated above. It's a damn shame that the NFA is rearing its ugly head on this, but until case law precedence has been established in favor of using the brace, I will steer clear.
 
9mm+ said:
There was a time that I contemplated buying the Sig with the brace because it looked like a workaround for the SBR regs. I'm not going there anymore for the reasons stated above. It's a damn shame that the NFA is rearing its ugly head on this, but until case law precedence has been established in favor of using the brace, I will steer clear.
Same here - fed.gov can afford more lawyers than I can, so I'm keeping away from the SIG brace. Looks like the bad guys have won this one, at least for now. (I'll keep an eye on the gun rags to see if they "walk back" their recommendations on shouldering the SIG brace - and we'll see if SIG takes any action themselves. I expect the NRA will have something to say about the issue this year sometime.)
 
how one holds a gun legally constitutes manufacture or redesign, turning an unrestricted item into an NFA item.
How one holds a gun is the definition under law for a pistol.

18 US CODE 921(a)(29)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand;


Same reason they dont like vertical forgrips, etc.


Ive yet to see someone shoulder a sig braced pistol with one hand. :)
 
The brace looks to me like a work around to get to something like a legal SBR or an enhanced pistol. Everyone knows that pistols don't have "braces" so I guess I don't get the concept of a braced pistol.


People seem to keep forgetting that Sig didn't design this or come out with it first. They bought the rights from the veteran that designed it for a handicapped vet friend of his who was only able to shoot an AR pistol one handed and the RSO at the range had told them to stop because the disabled vet couldn't handle the weapon securely enough. It doesn't take a genius to see an arm crutch slipped onto an AR pistol tube, but it took Alex Bosco to be motivated to have that bulb go off and then design the device and post it on AR15.com. The rest, as they say, is history. Now Sig sells the "Sig Brace" and Century sell the AK version that Mr. Bosco designed.

Alex Bosco, owner of SB Tactical and inventor of the pistol stabilizing brace, told me about a close friend of his. An avid shooter, hunter and, like Alex himself, a veteran. Unlike Alex, though, he was disabled. Without the use of his left arm he could no longer fire rifles unsupported.

So he started shooting the next best thing: an AR pistol. It was heavy, difficult to aim and loud. But it was a gun and nonetheless fun. Unfortunately, an RSO at their range arbitrarily deemed the AR pistol too uncontrollable for Alex’s buddy to shoot and decreed that he would have to shoot from a rest if he was going to shoot at all. This upset the disabled veteran considerably. The biggest reason he had bought an AR pistol was so as not be confined to a chair while shooting.

Adversity, however, is the mother of invention and this brace is no exception.

Mr. Bosco envisioned a product that looked like an extension of the pistol instead of a prosthetic device. The prototype he developed worked exactly like he conceptualized and posted his creation on AR15.com’s forum where it was greeted with roughly equal amounts of excitement and skepticism.

There was a good discussion in NFA weapons forum on this.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=768529&highlight=Sig
 
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How one holds a gun is the definition under law for a pistol.

18 US CODE 921(a)(29)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand;


Same reason they dont like vertical forgrips, etc.


Ive yet to see someone shoulder a sig braced pistol with one hand. :)

This is the major inconsistency that I see with this SigBrace ruling by the ATF, because by their new ruling that shouldering a sig braced pistol redesigns it into an NFA item, by the same logic, holding an actual pistol (i.e. glock, s&w, etc) with two hands is redesigning that as well (according to the above us code "18 US CODE 921(a)(29)"). When I first read the new ATF ruling on it that was the first thing to pop up in my mind is by the new logic they just made everyone who is shooting their handguns with two hands fall in the same category of redesigning the firearms intended purpose written in the us firearms code.

This is why all of this from the very beginning is absurd. The sig brace TECHNICALLY wasn't designed for shouldering, much like the forearm of an AR pistol wasn't TECHNICALLY designed for a place to hold with the off hand, and under the barrel and front of the trigger guard of a handgun TECHNICALLY wasn't designed for a placement of an off hand while shooting. So...be careful out there redesigning all of your pistols. This all falls under the same inconsistent logic, and is the height of ridiculousness.
 
BTW, I shoot our .300ACC one handed, but then I've driven the weight down to just a hair over 5lbs. Fun challenge.
 
What's to stop the ATF from reversing themselves on the Slide Fire Solutions stock, like they did with the Akins Accelerator and now the Sig arm brace?
 
BTW, I shoot our .300ACC one handed, but then I've driven the weight down to just a hair over 5lbs. Fun challenge.

Weight might be the major factor here. I have an M1 carbine that weighs under 5 lbs and can be shouldered and shot with one hand. Not a true rifle cartridge but close.

I wasn't aware of the history of the brace so glad I asked.
 
Thank you all for the education on the history of this brace concept. My hat is off to Mr. Bosco for helping a veteran. More of us should do the same.
Also of note, it seems than some RSO had issue; another reason I don't use public shooting ranges with overzealous range Nazis. Being an RSO at a private club, I will gladly let any veteran use my firearm, and will do just about anything to make it a safe, enjoyable occasion.
This whole ATF existence is just another example go government gone way too far.
 
I'm gonna be the killjoy here. When the ATF allowed the brace, everybody and their uncle raved about an end-run around around the tax stamp. If we (as in collectively) had kept our traps shut, there would be no "clarification" letter. That is only needed because the gun internet erupted with a whole crowd of people stating they intended to break the existing NFA law.

The old saying is "Better to ask forgiveness than permission" does not apply when you openly state your intentions to the very people you are going to beg forgiveness from later. Permission, therefore, has been denied.
 
I'm of two minds on that. Not sure I like the idea of a quasi legal status vs knowing what they WILL do.


And to be really fair to the "bubbas as and neckbeards" as some have called them, in this new information society (and especially our gunny end of it), if something is said to be legal there are going to be floods of videos of folks doing that. And if the ATF publishes a letter saying something rather unbelievable, there's gonna be a lot of folks writing them letters to say, "no kidding, really!?!?"

It might look like we've ruined this "good thing" we had going, but it was just about inevitable.
 
Dang I just did a 10.5" bravo company build using a sb15 brace. Looks like I'll be dismantling that one to start this year's precision build.
 
To me the brace has always seemed to mainly be a way to get around the SBR tax. It should never have been legal to begin with, but then to me an AR pistol with the buffer tube probably shouldn't be either because i have seen people shoulder fire them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support that law, just think that these are attempts to get around it.
 
A question about the original stated purpose of the Sig brace: if you can't use your left hand to hold an AR pistol, how the heck are you going to operate an AR pistol in other respects? Charging handle, reloading, etc? Strapping it to the forearm of your good arm solves the limited issue of stability, but doesn't seem to solve the fact that it's a fundamentally bad weapon choice, either recreationally or defensively, for someone without two working arms.
 
To think it could turn us into a felon by simply shouldering something that is protected in our constitution. "A militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed... Unless they shoulder a Sigg pistol brace." ???!?! Disgusting.
 
My non lawyer thoughts on this
If shouldering a Sigbrace "redesigns" an AR or AK or whatever pistol into an SBR:

Would that not also mean that shooting a long gun of any type while not shouldered "redesign" it into a pistol?

Would that not also mean that shooting a traditional pistol using both hands "redesign" it into an SBR?

I seem to recall some controversy years ago (80s, I was pretty young) when gunmakers started squaring the trigger guards on pistols for people to place the index finger of their support hand and whether this constituted a forward grip.
 
My non lawyer thoughts on this

Well, the definition of a rifle as written in the law does not subject rifles to be redesigned as handguns. There is not "designed or re-designed to be fired NOT from the shoulder" clause in the rifle definition, so how you hold a rifle can't really change anything about its classification.

Could it for a pistol? Weeeelll...

Taking the statements the ATF has made and extrapolating everything that they might mean when taken out to the furthest extremes is probably not helpful. The NFA is not a well-written law and there are some grey areas and internal conflicts between sections, that pop up as firearms technology has advanced. As we've seen with the MagPul "AFG" case, they can be presented with grey area cases and make a determination that isn't necessarily the most restrictive possible interpretation of the law. They aren't going to try and redefine a standard handgun as an SBR for any common/normal situation.

The problem here is that the law does clearly state, if you put something on the gun to use as a stock, you're making an SBR. Every one of us saw the SIG brace and instantly said, "oh, I could put that on an AR and shoulder it." If it is a stock (because you're using it as one) then the ATF says you've added a STOCK to your pistol.

The fact that it is primarily intended as an arm brace (and used by at least 5% of buyers that way, I'm sure) means the ATF has a reason to say it is still legal to buy and install. They're just saying don't do that in order to skirt the law on stocks.

And if that's what they'd said two years ago before the world was full of folks making pseudo-SBRs, none of us would have ever even questioned it. Unfortunately it took them years to figure out what to say and now we've all had our hopes of sneaking around the law dashed so we're mad and looking for jail-house lawyer ways to talk ourselves past the law.
 
As many point out, there are some inconsistencies in what the ATF recently released. And many take things into their own interpretation where the ATF fears to tread.

It's military and LEO doctrine to shoot a handgun with two hands - so, speculating the ATF is outlawing that is ridiculous. The ATF trains to do that, too. And saying we can't use a forward grip on the AR pistol is another issue, as the magazine well is often used, and an accessory mag well wrap with finger grooves on it isn't even mentions when discussing VFG's on pistols. You can hold an AR pistol with two hands to shoot it. Wild speculation about not being able to is just that, and does nothing to focus the issue at hand.

We are talking about having a vertical flat surface on the rear of a firearm for the purpose of holding it motionless against the shoulder. Why do we want to do that? Because it then leaves only the muzzle to wander around aimlessly directed downrange.

Look thru the sights, minimize the wandering by controlling our human errors, and we shoot well enough the barrel itself is the cause of dispersion. Take the stock off the shoulder, tho, and you introduce two more variables. Before it was just pivoting off the shoulder in a cone shaped dispersion that resembles what the barrel does. Off the shoulder it now adds the stock wandering around 360 degrees and amplifies the dispersion even more. It also causes some for and aft variation that affects the "cheek weld" view thru the sights.

That's why we see rifles shooting MOA out to 400m as an easy accomplishment, but shooting a 9mm handgun out that far and hitting a steel plate? Not so much, Jerry Miculek level effort.

It's the difference that pistols and rifles - even using the same cartridge - have in EFFECTIVE accuracy at longer ranges. We simply aren't that good with pistols, so we adopt a stock to be more accurate.

What is an AR pistol for to begin with? Is it not a PDW for short range use? Basically an SBR with no stock, right? The Mk18, XM177, and others were never meant for 400m use, 200m maximum and certainly more often less than 50 feet.

What, you can't shoot a pistol to minute of man accuracy at 50 feet? Sure. Then why do we even need a stock or brace on it? Goes to many who were thumbing their nose at the ATF and saying they were skirting the SBR application process. Were they? Stamp application wait times were reduced from 8-9 months to less than 8-9 weeks in the time period the Brace has been on the market. The ATF didn't suddenly get administratively efficient, even tho they did hire more help. They just weren't getting SBR applications.

The expressed motivation for most of those buyers was to build and possess the functional equivalent of an stocked short barrel rifle. They certainly intended to hold it against their shoulder to minimize error in aiming.

Note closely that the ATF, despite it's ambiguous wording, is leaving aside the existence of the buffer tube on the AR. Pistol owners aren't specifically addressed as being the problem, it's the brace abusers who are. If someone still wants to build an AR pistol - I've got my lower done - then this change has no effect whatsoever. Right now I'm more concerned about which kind of upper to put on it - traditional A3 or sidecharger - than whether or not I can shoulder it. With some diligent practice I should be able to hit a target stocked or not.

As for the SBR being a better solution than the pistol, not so much. SBR's are a registered firearm to one individual, or trust, with long term legal entanglements. You have to request permission in advance to transport it across state lines. State laws in your area may require it to be unloaded and cased out of reach for anti poaching enforcement. A pistol falls under CCW provisions, it can be loaded, up front, and in MO, with a CCW permit, open carried throughout the State.

Therefore, for the arguable loss of effective accuracy in a short range weapon, why would I then want to registered it with the US Government, be restricted in it's use, and not be able to transport it ready for it's intended use?

Because a lot of SBR applicants see the process as becoming members of an elite club who have a privilege they can exercise that the average citizen can't.

No, not so much. If anything, they are giving up their liberties to be taxed further and, again, the effective accuracy is arguable. Jerry Miculek can hit steel at 400m with a 9mm, therefore, what is the real issue?

Whiny posers who want to look bad and get away with it. And this is why we have Moms Against Gun groups saying "we can't tell who is a good guy, so we want them all to be banned."

Good job at selling responsible gun ownership, dudes. You bought a prosthetic adapter for one armed veterans and use it as a rifle because you won't try harder to be more accurate, and all the while basking in the admiration of your buddies who elevated you in their esteem?

You got problems and you made things worse for yourself. Too bad.
 
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