Scenario: Gangbanger crossfire

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Nathaniel Firethorn

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Based on an actual incident described here.

You are on a surveyor working on sidewalk next to a housing project, which is separated from the sidewalk by a chain-link fence. Traffic on the street next to the sidewalk is heavy.

As you go to retrieve a tool, two gangbangers on the opposite side of the fence start shooting at each other. They are pointing rather than aiming, and the shots are going in all directions.

You have what you usually carry.

What next?

- NF
 
First choice seek any cover at all - second if an avenue get the heck outa Dodge. Then cell call to call it in.

Unless all options gone and it was only me under threat of a hit and not my wife, kids etc, I would not be engaging these shooters.
 
Denny Hansen says it best : Stay Low and watch your back

In this instance, distance was his friend. Been nice to of had cover, still moving targets are "less" likely to get hit.

I know this is a firearm forum, still the firearm is not the "end all - do all" answer to every friggin' situation, it is one of the tools in the toolbox.

Me? Crossfire with gangbangers? Add Rioters slinging lead every which-a-way. Yep, BTDT and...

I have dived into ditch and crawled, , have beat feet and dove under a house, and kept crawling thru to the next house...
I have been pulled into a slowed down moving pickup truck and hoisted up and into into it. I was a kid.

Get bigger, and State Regs, signage and metal detector said no guns...halfway to my vehicle, just outside the door, sidewalk width, have shots ring out with crossfire. I hugged my vehicle front tire, LEO officer and my wife still in the bulding doorway " get back now" - he tossed me his BUG ( I ain't packing, I open my door and interior light is coming on, I ain't ready to give anyone else something to sling shots at). He gets the wife inside and down hugging the floor, calls the Calvary, and when the Calvary comes - he covers to let me back into the building. I could not go anywhere because of where all the folk were slinging lead.

I ran a red light in Ohio getting of the freeway at the wrong time ....left turn on red seemed like a good idea.

Went around the barrier in Mississppi, blew thru a lot in Memphis near St, Jude's, Skittered across the parking lot in Dallas after the damn front wheel drive rental car would not "hop" a itty bitty parking stop ( I detest front wheel drive for evasive measures) and used a cement ditch to run like hell after exiting the rental car.

When you are in a house, and the drive by happens, hit the deck and crawl to bathroom to put a kid inside it.

One always has their brain - train the brain . Distance , cover, don't just bring hands to face and stand their wide eyed , mouth open and "oh, oh, oh".

Stay low and watch your back - Denny
 
Your gun is irrelevant in this situation. Hit the ground, crawl to the street and use the curb for cover (hope there's a car to use for concealment) and then start heading for better cover.

P.S. Let's hope you don't see the "Calvary" due to this.

P.P.S. Preacherman, If he see's Calvary would the incoming be considered to have had the "last right" of way?
 
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I would "run and not grow faint" until I was behind "my Rock and my Deliverer". :D

Good witness/call 911/prepare to repel boarders, all the usual non-involved stuff for that scenario.

Relevent situation though.

We're having more and more "pseudo-gang"* shootouts in public places up here, to include exciting moving-car to moving-car gunbattles.

Surprisingly, as far as I can tell, no one is blaming the newly loosened carry laws.

The fact that most "victims" and perps have warrants and priors probably helps.

*- I say "pseudo" because there doesn't seem to be any real criminal enterprise involved. The hard stuff is imported and distributed by a known group of older, more settled folks and pot grows in every other trailer. Car thefts are 99% joyrides. A few after-hour places, "massage parlors" and a few bookmakers but no "rackets" per se. What "organized" crime still exists I think is run by the bikers (has been since the pipeline days IIRC), but I'd be hard-pressed to know what that crime might be.

Basically, it's local thug wannabes salted with kids whose parents moved them up here from Cali and such to try to get the kids away from real gangs.
They fight for turf, and "respect" and girls but not for any real good economic reasons I can see. Just a bunch of punks who'd wet their pants if they ever met real bad guys.

They've still managed to rack up a few innocent victims along the way. :cuss:
 
dilemma

A similar scenario occured here in Pgh. just a year ago, or so.
A father and his young daughter decided to have something to eat at "Mr. Tomm's Sandwich Shop."

They became trapped between two mindless murderers who were from opposing gangs or had it in for each other. I forget exactly.

As the two began to fire away at each other, the father and the daughter went to the floor, however, the helpless child was struck and killed, while the father could do nothing to defend her or himself. He was unarmed!

I wondered what I might do under the same circumstances; though I go armed. A terrible situation to be trapped into.

Perhaps I would identify the shooter who was firing the most wildly and engage him, since his rounds would be causing the most risk.

Or, perhaps, if I had a clear shot at one shooter, and not at the other, then I would take my shot, putting him out of action, and thus ending the gunfire exchange by eliminating the other man's target.

Difficult.
 
I would follow the advice of the others unless all of the following conditions are clearly obvious:

1. Bystanders other than myself are in imminent danger and I cannot find hard cover;

2. I know who started it;

3. My own backstop is clear;

4. The guy who didn't start it isn't in a position to fire on me.

In that case, I would fire on the instigator. Just because they might be "gangbangers" or carrying illegally doesn't mean the first guy isn't trying to commit first degree murder.
 
Remember it only take one bullet to start this and one bullet to end it. It dosen't matter where that bullet comes from there is already plenty flying to begin with. If I feel like I can ride out the situation undercover than I will. If the cross fire is landing too close to me.Then take out the shooter that I have the best shot at.
 
It happened to me....I had NO cover and was unarmed. I figured the best chance was to "keep" my eye on the young fella closest to me, while runnin' like he!!. Roadway curb cover was not an option due to lack of shoulders (NJ drivers will run right over you!). As an aside, I found out one of the shooters was arrested tuesday night. It was a revenge shooting for another shooting in which a 14 y.o. kid (gang member) was killed. I will have police protection to finish the job out there. He said the krips and bloods are supposed to explode in that area this weekend. I hope they get it out of their system by Monday morning work time!!!
 
My first thought when I read that was run for cover wherever I could find it and pull my gun. If there was no cover, just run down the sidewalk until I got out of sight.

But then, I thought of the dense traffic next to me and bullets going all over the place. I would be under no legal obligation to do anything nor would anyone hold it against me if I didn't....I might not even hold it against myself if I didn't as I would have little time to think and be more likely to react.

That being said, jump for cover or kneel down, pull my revolver, take aim and fire at them. (assuming nothing beyond them in the line of fire is mortal or penatrable) If I hit them, the fight is over and the bullets are no longer flying and endangering anyone else (or myself). If I miss them and they at least cease shooting and run for cover or run off completely. Either way, the people in traffic are safe.

Use of my gun I think would be justified for these reasons (and they would all be under investigation by the police at the very least):

1) I was in mortal danger by them, even though their actions were not directed at me

2) If I remember correctly the law (Texas) also allows use of deadly force to stop a perpetraitor if they are a deadly threat to others around immediately or potentially. In this case, they were. They police are not immediately around to stop them.

This is not saying I want to be "Commando boy" or "GI Joe" as some people over on TFL have ridiculed in the past upon reading some of my senarios. It is not that I myself want to be some kind of hero, but rather I think we would ALL be better served if everyone (that is most people who want to ) were armed. My way of thinking goes back to a number of years ago when I saw a Prime Time or 20/20 or Dateline report of how modern people react to things in our day and age. In the story, one of several, traffic was stopped along a road or bridge somewhere. A woman was running through the cars as a man chased her with intent to kill her. She screamed for help that the man was trying to kill her. People in their cars simply stood by and watched as the man ended her life. I thought to myself then, "I don't want to be as numb as those spectators." The whole story was about how even if someone was in danger, people would do nothing. That would be a very heavy weight on my concious if I stood by and let somebody be killed when I could have done something to prevent it. It's not about personal glory, it's just about being a part of life and serving others. Contrary to what the slogan says, police cannot serve and protect, they can only catch the criminal after the fact (except on very rare occasions when they happen to be in the immediate area). Serving and protecting is up to us as a people

EDIT: All of the above is assuming that I reasonably knew both of them were in fact gangbangers in a gang war putting me and everyone else at risk and not one armed innocent person attacked by a not so innocent armed person.

Even the police, wouldn't just open fire on unknowns. I remember the FBI shootout in Miami, the police arrived on the scene of the shootout and had no idea who the good and bad guys were or even if there were any good guys. (because the FBI didn't let the local police know what they were doing....way ta go Feds)
 
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Get the hell out of Dodge.
Two losers shooting at each other is not my problem. With any luck they will remove each other from the genepool, and welfare rolls.
If I could not get away, find cover and wait till it is over.
 
Whatever it takes to protect me and mine. I have no interest in stopping the shootout.

Flee, hide - sounds good. I've done it when a bar brawl spilled into the street and on the car in front of mine.

Or I retrieve my body from the car and suit up. Then I take my Springfield TRP with 230 gr Hydrashoks and plug both guys on the move. Then I send a letter to Combat Handguns. Oh, wait, I used my last stamp for my true story letter to Penthouse.

You may remember an Ayoob column where an off duty officer left his child to engage BGs in a gun fight and one creeped around and killed the little girl, IIRC.
 
If I'm in the middle of the street, and they're on the sides inwards, I would assume they were both at me and would drop one, turn to the other to see if he's still , and if so, drop him as well.

This sounds so level and matter of fact in my head, doesn't it...
 
Say a small prayer...

Find cover, if avaialable, and ask the Lord that these two gangbangers aim be true and they be visiting him or his counterpart shortly.

jeepmor
 
Been there, done that.

Happened on Christmas Day, 2005. I was at my GF's grandparents house in an older neighbohood in Peoria, IL. At 2pm we left for my parents house, and the 2nd Christmas dinner of the day. I get into the car, start the engine and wait for my girlfriend to load some crap in the back seat. As she is opening the passenger door, Two cars stop in the street directly next to my car. one heading south and one heading north. Words were exchanged between the cars, I became nervous as the passengers of both vehicles looked dodgy and the discussion sounded argumentative. I was thinking, "Car Jacking", so I told my girlfriend to hurry up. As the cars parted ways, the north bound car hung a hard left into the driveway behind me and stopped (10 ft). The southbound vehicle made a wide right turn at the corner in front of me and stopped in the intersection (60 ft). The passenger of the car in front of me stepped out of the car pointing a gun in my direction, and opened fire. I yelled for the girlfriend to get down. With my head below the dash I dropped the shifter into "D", and hit the go button. Girlfriends door was not even closed when we departed from the scene. I was at 40mph before I looked up, and by then I was just through the intersection. I continued at a high rate of speed until I was in (what I felt) safe location. The whole thing lasted probable 30-40 seconds from the begining of the argument to my A6 screaming through the intersection. 911 was called, but there was not much that could be done. Both vehicles involved are owned by known bad guys.

Bad guys:
South Bound- Late model Crown Vic(late 90s), light Brown, custom wheels
North Bound- Late model Crown Vic(late 90s), Almost Purple. custom paint, as it appeard to change color, custom wheels

1. Get down!
2. Find Saftey.
3. Report it.

I was more concerned with getting hit by a stray than an aimed shot. I also knew that if I became an intended target, my Audi A6 would be a much deadlier weapon than the shooters .22 or 9mm. (9mm casings found at the scene.)
 
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Happened to me twice...

Once I was on foot, hid behind the wheel of a bus allowed them to shoot it out.

Second time. I was in a car driving between them when the fire errupted. I ducked under the dash and floored the car why trying to hold the wheel straight.I popped my head back up around 60mph avoided an accident, made a few legal moves the cops wouldn't like, and continued running hard and fast for a few miles from adreline until I got pulled over and explained what happened to the cop.

This is somebody elses problem not yours. Get off the X and don't dilly dally around in no mans land.
 
Can't carry in NJ, but it wouldn't matter here.

NJ is pretty terribly about guns, so you are essentially unprotected. If you have to work in gangland, can you get body armor? A second chance vest will stop fowtees all day, although it won't feel very good. I know it doesn't help much.
Police escort, huh? Cool. Maybe they will be useful, and maybe not. I hope you are well when your job is done, and my hat's off to you for being brave enough to stay on the job. I hope it pays well.
 
Well, I made it through another day! Our police protection showed up this morning, right on time. A really nice fella, he felt bad about what happened to us last week. Its funny how the local natives make themselves scarce when the cruiser is on the job...I love it. Today school let out in the area and the cops told me that the "kids" just hang out all summer, mostly farting around and causing disturbances. I guess a lot of the folks in the area have no idea what a survey instrument is cause a lot of them cover their faces as passing by like I'm taking their picture or something....its funny. I'm praying for an uneventful week.
 
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