Scenario

[NevadaDep]

Let’s say you are driving down a 2 lane highway 75mph at 2230 hours in the right lane no shoulder and your children our asleep in the back seat. Another vehicle approaches from behind going easily 105mph with his high beams on. He screams around you, barely missing your truck. Now he is up front playing break check games and trying to run your family off the road. You have no phone service for at least 30 more miles and the only thing you can think of is your Springfield XD9 in the center console. What would you do?


This happened to me coming back from a conference. I had no idea what to do. There was no place to pull over and cell phone service was non existent. After what felt like 10 minutes (most likely 10 seconds) the thugs pulled up to my driver side window and started flashing gang signals. I promptly drew down on them with my XD 9 and it was all over as quickly as it started.


After it was all over I started replaying the scenario in my head, wondering if I had acted correctly. Even if (and I believe I was) justified in pulling my firearm, had I fired a shot and killed one of them, I would almost undoubtedly end up sharing a cell with the thugs I once supervised.

There were no witnesses so how would you prove in court that you were justified? It’s just your word against a dead guy. I have a nasty feeling they would have written it off as murder/road rage and sent me to prison for a long time. Your thoughts

Sorry for the long post.

 

[griz]

I would slow down a bunch with the intention of letting them drive away. Other than that, probably the same thing you did. Shooting would be the next to the last option (stopping to talk it over would be the last). Another advantage to slowing down would be that if it came to shooting, the fact that you put several rounds accurately on target would be evidence that they were engaging you. Unless they were suicidal and just drove beside you while you pumped rounds into the car.

 

[imprezagm4]

Probably slow way way down and maybe even stop (i assume no other cars were around)... if after that they matched my speed or got to close for comfort and were endangering me and mine, I would have drawn.

 

[Odd Job]

Difficult to say what I would do. The limiting factor here is the kids on the back seat. I don't have kids, so I don't have that angle to 'chew over.' I am assuming that I would be much less likely to escalate a situation if I had kids in the car.
It's a tough one. I've been followed before and thought I was about to be carjacked. In that situation I slowed right down, let the car roll and took off my seat belt, unlocked the door and got my pistol to hand. Then I stopped the car.
It turned out to be cops in an unmarked car, but luckily they turned the blues on before they got out. I was really annoyed though. They shouldn't have pulled that stunt (it was on a dark road in Johannesburg, after all).

As for this overtaking and braking stunt, sometimes I wish I had one of those giant boxing gloves on an extending arm, that you see in the cartoons. Something pneumatically-powered under the hood would be great: I would take great pleasure in punching those arse-fezzes in their goblinmobile right off the road!

 

[thexrayboy]

When confronted by goblins far far away from help rule number one is to be well armed. Lots of people think I'm paranoid but that doesn't stop me from carrying a long gun with plenty of ammo when my travels take me to the hinterlands. Here in Nevada you don't have to drive to far from the bigger cities to find you have no cell phone service. When that happens you are truly "on your own". Another vehicle full of bangers flashing sign will probably have at least one person armed with a handgun. You need to be better armed. No amount of training, tactics or experience can be substituted for having adequate weaponry. When you can't count on even contacting LEO let alone getting a timely response you must plan for problems. A lonely road in the middle of nowhere is a great place for goblins to hunt for prey. Do not be unarmed or poorly armed prey.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

Tough situation. I know there is advise to use your vehicle if necessary as a weapon. Tricky with the family along. Definitely trying to create distance is a big plus. As griz noted, it could help prove that you had tried to escape the conflict. A "personal protection specialist" course I once took noted that a bodyguard is a "professional coward": standing your ground and fighting, unless absolutely necessary, is foolish -- it just gets you or your boss killed, which ends the paychecks. Standing to fight is a last resort, but good to be prepared for it, especially in out of the way places (EVERYWHERE out here is out of the way, too).

 

[Michael Courtney]

Most tactical situations boil down to time, distance, and cover. In this case, the most powerful weapons in play are the vehicles themselves, and the vehicles are also the best cover. So the outcome of force-on-force depends largely on the relative size and maneuverability of the vehicles which was not described in the question.

In any case, it is always advantageous to gain time and distance. It seems that stopping and just letting them drive off is a good way to establish time and distance. If the agressor reverses direction and comes back, this is probably provable and establishes agression should use of force eventually result.

One also has the option of turning around and going the other way. However, I would only attempt this if it can be accomplished in a smooth U-Turn. If a three point turn is needed, I would consider this too slow and prefer not to leave the side of my vehicle exposed for very long.

Should deadly force eventually result, any and all maneuvers demonstrating attempted avoidance will strengthen a case of self defense. It's isn't just sound tactically, it's good legally as well.

In an incident that can be portrayed as road rage, the first one to shoot is probably going to look bad in court unless there is considerable evidence that the agressor used the vehicle itself as a weapon.


Michael Courtney

 

[TallPine]

This sort of thing happened to me once many years ago, only I was the "kid" in the scenario. Two guys in a car passed us and then slowed down to a crawl and started weaving across the lanes to prevent us from passing. This was on an interstate, so turning around and going back the other way was not an option.

I crawled part way through the "boot" between our pickup cab and camper, and retrieved our pistol (nothing but a cheap .22 semi-auto ) from the bed. Only thing I can figure is that they could see me doing that (the dash lights were on brightly in our cab) and guessed what I was getting and decided that we were not such good prey, because shortly after that they pulled way over on the shoulder and let us go by.

After which we broke all speed limits getting to the next town.

It's a good idea to keep your dash lights turned as low as possible so that others can't see you inside your car.

 

[skidmark]

Obviously avoidance was not possible for you. I do have questions about your use of disengagement.

Once they passed you and started playing games, there were several opportunities to disengage. When they started playing brakecheck, you could have slowed/stopped to increase distance, and maintained a larger interval, or (depending on the physical layout of the road) reversed direction.

If you cannot maitain your disengagement because they come back at you, you know for sure that their intent is not good. At that point you NEED to go into survival mode. IMHO survival in this case still means disengagement. However, the means to accomplish that can now become more creative.

Even with your wife & children as passengers, you may want/need to use the vehicle itself as one of your available weapons. Ramming their vehicle headon is a BAD decision, but if they circle behind you it may be possible to hit their front end with your rear end. Demolition derbies show over and over again that destroying the radiator is a very fast and effective way of disabling a vehicle. Everyone snugs seatbelts up tight and hopes for the best.

If they are still ahead of you and playing brakeckeck, you might consider a PIT against them. You need to know that PITting at over 45mph can cause rollover of the target vehicle, and may cause the actor vehicle to spin. (Just for the record, a PIT is not ramming - merely a gentle nudge of the rearmost corner to allow physics to take its course is causing a spin-out.)

A final thought. If all else has failed and you are down to exchanging gunfire, have you considered what to do about your family? Do you keep them in the vehicle with you? Do you drop them off on the roadside to hide/escape? Do you drop off and have the rest of the family evade/escape while you do a rear-guard action?

You have presented a very troublesome scenario. It gives the opportunity to do a lot of thinking about options other than a running gun battle on a dark stretch of highway.

Bottom line is - you survived unharmed to share the experience. Thus, you done good.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[Eyesac]

I just want to add for the record that using you car to defend yourself might end in the disabling of both you cars (most fuel injected cars have a fuel/inertia shut off switch, which will disable the fuel pump with even a small bump), which would mean you're most likely going to be fighting after everyone gets out of their disabled cars (stranded in the middle of nowhere together). I've been in a small fender bender (maybe 15mph in a 1990 mustang) and the inertia switch was tripped and I was unable to start my car until I reset the switch (in the trunk inside a panel).
I think the best thing to do is make distance a priority, let the BG make first physical contact if any, my .02...

 

[B.D. Turner]

Never ever ever ever travel unarmed at night. This story is a prime example of something that went good but could have ended very bad.
The weapon of choice should be one that could be operated with one hand and be loaded with a single hand. Never ever pull over to settle things. You can drive a long way on a flat tire if need be. Pulling into a store for help would be good but late night waffle houses could be full of even more drunks and friends of the nuts that are after you. If the suspect car is infront of you he could ram you or cause you to hit him and blow your air bags. Be ready to get out of the way if you need to. Keep your vehicle in good repair and with plenty of fuel when traveling.

 

[TooTaxed]

You did well. Showing your gun only when forced to was the proper thing to do, shooting would be the last resort...which I'd do if the others also produced a gun and did not leave.

Twice (Fresno and Santa Rosa, California) I was able to head off unprovoked physical assaults by simply showing a gun...both times the bad guy(s) promptly left, possibly to find someone who did not have a gun. A third time (New York City) just acting as if I had a gun worked.

As a side note, the police are not a protective factor...the bad guys pick a time to do their thing when the police are absent. Cell phones are nice...but (from recent experience of a break-in) the police are not likely to show up until everything is over.

 

[Geegolly]

This is a great post, thank you for posting since I have been meaning to post my experience from last Friday night. Only difference is I didn’t have anyone with me.
I was in a Mazda 6 headed to work, while my attacker was in a truck with a snow plow attached on front. Also I had no service for me to use the cell.

It all started with him getting right on my rear really quick, I thought he was going to hit me. So I floored it and got out of there real quick. My get up and go blew him away, and he didn’t catch back up until I got stuck behind a semi. I could not pass due to the double lines, but this didn’t seem to stop him. He proceeded to pass and then swerve in between us running me off the road, mind you there was only enough room between the semi and me to fit a small car. After I regain control he stopped in the middle of the road so that I could not pass, after a few choice words I had my BHP sitting in the passenger seat waiting for him to do something stupid. The problem quickly defused and he left, with me keeping my distance.

Once off the two lane highway we turn onto a four lane highway and I floor it to get around him since he was going dead slow and would not let me pass. This only upset him more and ran me off the road and into oncoming traffic at this time my gun was drawn once more. After I quickly get out of oncoming traffic I try and pass him on the other side and he then side swiped me and ran me off the road again. This really upset me since it’s a new nice car, not to mention this is starting to get deadly, and he just hit me. As I pass him on the left again, I roll down the passenger side window and take aim. This defused the situation really quick, as he slammed on his brakes. I floored it to an illegal speed. That is the last I saw of him.

I'm not sure if this was the right thing to do, but it worked. Also what worked for me, may not work for everyone.

 

[Ryder]

There were no witnesses so how would you prove in court that you were justified?

You have that backwards I believe. There is no requirement to prove yourself innocent. You must be proven guilty. Your word against a dead guy? If that were so you would win by default but it's going to be your word plus the other witnesses in your car against a prosecutor. There's a good chance that the cops will even testify for you. If it goes to trial I would not fear a jury for protecting my family.

In your scenario protecting family would be my only priority. Going to jail won't enter my mind. Failure won't enter my mind. I know this from previous experience. That's not a conscious decision, it's survival mode and those things do not improve my odds of living past the next few minutes.

What would I do? Who knows? I play these things by instinct. Doubt I would get involved in a high speed chase when my family is along though. probably slam on the brakes and see if they kept going or came back for a trajic ending.

Seems to have turned out good for you and that's what matters the most but I do not like letting them know I am armed in advance. I think you're lucky your car wasn't filled with incoming fire after showing your pistol. If they'd been armed they could have killed you all and said you threatened them. They could have turned you in for threatening them after the incident also. Cops may be looking for you now. Did you report this? If you are permitted it would have been a good idea.

 

[Whitewolf 508]

Surprise

About 20 years ago, I just got off an overnight shift and was on my way home. I had gotten lazy and had not bothered to change out of my uniform. I just grabbed my civies and put my should rig on over my light blue uniform shirt.

Another car passed me on a double yellow after tailgating for about three miles. After he got past me, he pulled the old jam on the brakes routine several times. He got tired of this game and tramped on the gas. About two miles up the road, he had pulled his car right across the road in front of a tunnel, totally blocking the road.

I stopped my Jeep at an angle and got out with my hand on my pistol ready to draw. He got this Oh crap look when he realized that his victim was armed and in uniform. I directed him to move the car off the road and to turn off the ignition. I went over to him and demanded the keys to his car. He handed me the keys and I promptly threw them in some high weeds. I told him that by the time he found the keys, I would be home safe.

I wrote down his plate number and contacted the agency that handled that jurisdiction. They assured me that they would handle the situation. As I was leaving the pay phone, I saw one of their cars pull in the raod where he was down on his hands and knees searching for his keys.

 

[hceptj]

I think you did okay and there wasn't much of anything else you could do.

My brother had a similar experience about 20 years ago, way before cell phones were the norm. He was going on a trip about 8 hours away by himself and asked if he could borrow a pistol in case of car trouble and he had to walk. I loaned him a Beretta .32 that he was familiar with to take on the trip.

While driving on the interstate in a deserted stretch with his cruise control set at 5 over the speed limit, he had a car with 4 guys come up and tailgate him for a few miles, finally sped up and got beside him. They paced him for a few miles, just kept looking over and finally pulled in front, then promptly hit the brakes a few times.

He tried slowing down and they kept going slower, so he tried going faster and they kept right on his bumper. At this point he figured they were up to no good so he slowed down a bit and let them pull up beside his car...he just held the Beretta up, not pointing it at them, just at the roof of his car so they got a nice side view...he said they slammed on the brakes and instantly disappeared.

Just having the pistol along defused the situation. No telling what might have happened had he stopped the car and not had the pistol.

 

[TooTaxed]

Just being able to show a pistol...without even pointing it at the bad guys...has saved me from three unprovoked physical assaults. In each case the bad guy(s) immediately backed away and went, I suppose, to find someone who did not have a gun.

 

[jcord]

I beleive you did a good job avoiding trouble. I never show my gun. If I show it, what they see is muzzle flash.

 

[luzyfuerza]

My mom (in her 60s with bad arthritis) used to have a water bottle that looked like a big cell phone. A carload of goops tried one of these moves with her one afternoon, and she started "dialing". They split.

Moral of the story: How do the goops know that YOUR cell phone doesn't have coverage?

 

[thexrayboy]

Moral of the story: How do the goops know that YOUR cell phone doesn't have coverage?

If you are halfway between Tonopah and Ely on Hwy 6 they know, believe me they know. And they also know that you are literally an hour or more away from any significant assistance even if by sheer good luck you could actually call for help. Barring an accidental encounter with LEO on these rural roads you are definitely on your own. I have driven from Carson City to Ely, more than once. A distance of several hundred miles. I have gone literally 250 miles and more without once seeing a deputy or trooper. Back east this may seem unthinkable but out here in the west that is normal. Tactics that can work in urban/semi urban areas can be totally nullified by the sheer magnitude of distance in some locales.

 

[entropy]

I had the same sort of thing happen to me, though it was a bunch of very inebriated teenagers out joyriding on a lonely Northern Minnesota highway in a muscle car. I was driving a Plymouth Scamp, (totally gutless 225 Slant 6) They buzzed up behind me, then pulled up next to me (On a 2 lane ) and started to weave side to side as if to start to push me off the road. I had a 16 ga. SxS on the back seat unloaded (hey, there's grouse along the highways up there)
and after several attempts to slow down, speed up, etc., with them matching speed, I needed to break contact fast. I snapped the 16 ga. shut and pointed it out the window resting on my left arm, which was on the steering wheel. It took a couple seconds for the meesage to swim through all the alcohol in their brains, but they sped off as fast as their car could go.

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Excellent thread. Very good advise from all, including the bit about faking the cell phone call (when they came back next to you) but, if it had been me, I think once the braking games started, I would have written down their licence plate number, type and color car, description, if only how many in car was all you think you could verify, time and road.. You talk, wife writes. If as mentioned, you had tried to slow way down and they would not leave you alone, no matter, and it became clear, you were their nights mark (victim of choice)

Then when they pulled along side of you, you warned them (show of gun) and I agree that it worked in your case, but as others said, they may have had the same and this could have opened the door (shooting match). I would have taken the opportunity, if I had made the choice to draw out on that open stretch of road, as they started to drift back along side of me, I would have taken shots at the exposed tires on my side, and hopefully gave them one or two running flats (at slow speed, as you said) and that would have ended their joy ride, but they would get/hear and see/ the message, this BS ends now.

No easy answers here, as mentioned, they could (if they got your plates) make a false report, etc., and who knows how it would have gone down in a court of law.

Bottom line for me, would be, it was dark, I could not tell if they had guns or not, but by their actions, they posed a serious threat to your/my family IMHO, and had it been me, as I said, I think once I made the decision to pull gun, I would have unleashed a mag with the hopes of making them walk it off.

*This is why I got the Sig 229R CT (laser grips) 9mm.. no doubts where I want the hits to go.

IMHO,


LS

 

[Libertylover]

Wow. People REALLY REALLY suck.

I had a cop do this to me once. Luckily, this dickwad was only after a ticket. I didn't even realize it was a cop until the blues started flashing. And they wonder why some of us out here in society don't like them...

VERY enlightening thread, makes me glad I went down and submitted the paperwork for my carry permit.

 

[ezypikns]

I really respect your honest admission:

I had no idea what to do.

I suspect that many of us would have been just like you. I'm glad it worked out and you're O.K.

 

[piste]

I too am glad things worked out ok for you and I think this is a case where the ends justify the means...HOWEVER....since you asked... In hindsight you took a risk that I don't know I would take. I too have 2 small children so I understand you scenario. Your actions had the potential to cook your goose in court. These clowns could have said they were waving hello and you pulled a gun on them when they were next to you and you had the clear option of just putting pedal to the metal in the clear open road ahead of you. Had you opened fire you really would have been cooked trying to explain to the prosecutor why you shot the possibly unarmed guy in the car alongside of you who was passing you cuz you were going too slow. Also you raised the stakes, not them, to an armed conflict (acknowledging the notion that they used their vehicle as a weapon) and risked them peppering the side of your vehicle with fire risking your family. Personally I think you had a few more options before waving the gun and I agree with those who posted in that if I bring out a handgun my next actions are "front sight, squeeze". Please do not take my Monday morning quarterbacking the wrong way...but you asked for input and these are my two cents. Easy for me to say when not in the heat of battle.