Self Defense Scenario- What would you do?

[DetroitStudent]

So I was checking previous threads, and the following scenario was described earlier. Here is a twist. This situation I felt hasnt been discussed and I find it entirely plausible:

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol. Let's assume you brandish it at this point. You tell them in a loud voice to "back off" or "get out of here" etc. They run away, You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Obviously, this would be different if you are with an acquaintance who can back you up. Have you ever heard of this happening? It seems entirely plausible. Have you ever heard of good ccw owners getting into trouble this way? How do you protect yourself as a law abiding ccw holder if this happens?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If you sense trouble the best thing to do is to try to avoid it altogether. Instead of simply walking into a suspicious situation, turn around or change direction and let him (or them) come after you. You can just throw your hands up, roll your eyes and mutter "damn, I forgot something," and turn around and walk briskly away. You're unlikely to "offend" him/them by seeming like you're preoccupied with your own thoughts.

If you feel a need to draw your gun then you must be prepared to identify, specifically, what ability he/they had to inflict serious bodily injury against you and what hostile actions or words gave you reason to believe that he/they meant to do you harm.

I'd say this situation is entirely plausible. Things are never black and white. There are more ambiguous gray area situations you'll encounter than situations that are flat out black and white.

 

[Onward Allusion]

It becomes your word against a group of guys...but...

Let me ask this - why would a group of guys approach a single guy in the first place? How many times has that actually happen in real life where a group of guys walk up to some guy alone in a parking lot or garage and gave compliments on his car? Not in my world. Calling the cops after the incident gives your scenario support. (oh wait, there's gonna be someone who's going to come back and say - "well hell, that happens to me all the time, and pulling your gun in that type of situation is irresponsible.")

Just for grins - what if they came up to you and complimented you on the woman on your arms and circled you two? Would a reasonable person think that they meant no harm? Believe it or not, despite all the hoopla over miscarriages of justice, our society's law is still based on what a reasonable person would think.

DetroitStudent

Self Defense Scenario- What would you do?

 

[LiveLife]

They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you don't want any trouble

Disclaimer: I can only speak for myself and what my actions might be.

I would move away from the BG/group (you do not know if/whether the BG/group is armed or his/their intention).

1. If he/they don't pursue, while observing BG/group and increasing the distance I would call 911 with my hand on the gun ready to draw. Put situational awareness to max and look for best defensible position or continue to increase distance. Return to car only when safe to do so (no car is worth your safety/life and can be retrieved later).

2. If he/they pursue, then now the situation changes - you are now a potential victim seeking escape/refuge. The "fear for life" would definitely kick in (you do not know if/whether the BG/group is armed or his/their intention - it doesn't matter if you are fearful of your life). I would rely on my training and start to "defend my life." At any time BG/group disengages pursuit, while observing BG/group and increasing the distance I would call 911. If I already drew my gun, I would continue to cover the BG/group until safe. Put situational awareness to max and look for best defensible position or continue to increase distance. Return to car only when safe to do so (no car is worth your safety/life and can be retrieved later).

 

[Gouranga]

In NC, you are already guilty of illegal use of deadly force . You pulled your gun without the imminent threat of serious injury, death, or sexual assault. You may/may not win the trial. They did not pull a gun, knife, etc. All they need to do was say, they were walking through the lot, their car was next to yours.

Personally, i would avoid the situation, IF they move towards you, or pursue, you have at least attempted to retreat, you have not instigated anything, you have cause to head them off at range with a warning and your gun out (but not pointing at them). If you are lucky, you will be in full view of a security camera showing their pursuit, your attempt to retreat, and you will be better off.

 

[Webbj0219]

Had something similiar happen to a coworker. The jist of it was this. His kid was in a fight out front with some other kids. So dad goes and gets the unloaded gun out of his truck. and starts yelling for them to break up the fight while waving the gun around. While he is doing this the cops show up, because one of the other neighbors had called them. The cops break up the fight and dad goes to jail for brandishing. He was able to make it to work the next day because his wife bailed him out. Not 100% sure of the final outcome of this if he got fined or what not. He didnt do any jail time except for a few hours that first night. This was in Nevada, so results may vary.

The point is even if you only draw your sidearm and point it at somebody, you may have to defend you actions in court. It would be up to them if it was justified, regardless if any shots were ever fired. Chances are if you were justified the crook may never report it. But to not leave yourself open to that, I wouldnt draw on someone unless I thought SD shooting would be justified.

In your situation if its a group of BG's you could argue disparity of force, but im not a lawyer. not sure situations will vary.

Another story that comes to mind, from a guy at a gunshop. A road rage incident were this guy cut him off and slams on the brakes, I think. Or does something that makes it set up where they are both stopped. The rager gets out of his car with a tire iron and comes up to the driver window of the guy behind him. Just as he was about to take a swing, the gun shop guy pulls out his 1911 and waves it in the window. The rager drops tire iron and runs, not walks back to his car and tears off out of there. Just so happened that an undercover statey was following this guy for a bit, saw him try and clip a few other drivers already. The cop left his card with the gun shop guy just in case he tries to press charges for you brandishing. Before he speeds off to pull the guy over. kinda shows how some bad guys will try and stick it to ya after you defend yourself.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Not enough information, really. What state/city are you in? What does the law say about self defense and how does the local jurisdiction enforce the law? Are you close enough to the car to get in it and shut the door before the admirers come on the scene? Where's your cell phone? Are there other people around besides you and the local car club, as in potential witnesses with cell phones? Do you have a key fob, and does it have an alarm button on it? And so on.

There's no substitute for knowing the law regarding self defense in your jurisdiction. Usually the first consult with a criminal defense attorney is free, and it might be good to pick up a card while you're there.

Brandishing is a crime in most areas, and generally a bad idea in all areas.

Good training trumps internet scenarios any day...

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Bongo Boy]

While these scenarios are endless in their variety and there's always a need for more information, there is some food for serious thought just the same. Not so much in terms of 'what would you do', but in terms of appreciating how crap goes down. It's so much easier to set this up with a clear threat, not so easy when you know in your heart there's a threat--just not the degree.

The real problem posed here is the problem of no clear threat until you've run out of options. So, I have to agree with two posters above: you need to maximize your options by retreating from the situation, and it would be great if we could train for this sort of thing. Once said thugs are within a few yards, it could be Game Over regardless of how well armed you are.

The instructors at Sig Academy were frequently pointing out the value of a tactical flashlight in most parking lot scenarios. Imagine how the game changes, or could very well change, if at 30 or more feet while the group is still in formation, they get hit with a bright white light. This meets the threat with what must be perceived as someone who's prepared, plus you have 15s where they can't see you.

The instructors were mostly cops, and in the scenarios where the bg sees a weapon (brandished or not), they're recommendation was to be the first to call the cops.

The street scuffle scenario where Dad pulls out unloaded weapon is inexcusable--I have no problem whatsoever with the guy getting a sufficient penalty to ensure he never carries. Exceptionally poor ability to assess threat & maintain composure--these are the people that Brady Campaign holds up as examples of why gun laws aren't brutal enough. I wasn't there, of course, but I'm imagining a 'normal' scuffle where the liklihood of serious injury is very unlikely. If Dad saw a real potential serious injury, of course maybe I'd see things differently--but I'd still challenge why he couldn't intervene by physically protecting his son. Could be a reason.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Can't really suggest the correct response without a lot more details, but there are two general principles to keep in mind.

[1] If you feel you must deploy lethal force or the threat of lethal force, you must be able to articulate: (A) why a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what you know, would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent; and (B) why a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that your alleged assailant had (1) the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm; (2) the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and (3) put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple.

[2] If you display lethal force and the threat withdraws, your very next act should be to get on your cell phone and report the encounter to the police. The first to report tends to be perceived as the victim and will have the most credibility.

If you can safely avoid a confrontation, that will be the best result.

 

[BullfrogKen]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol.

Stop.



Before I play your what-if game. Tell me why would I do that?

 

[Mightee1]

As with the 21 foot rule for the safe distance to be from someone with a knife, it wouldn't take long for a group of guys to rush you and cause great bodily harm. Having a hand on that gun might not be a bad idea, even if it stays in the holster.

It really depends on EXACT details of the situation at hand, but I would rather brandish a handgun (pointing at the ground, not at the GBs) in a situation than end up dead.

Good thread... it really gets you thinking.

 

[wishin]

Not enough information, really. What state/city are you in? What does the law say about self defense and how does the local jurisdiction enforce the law? .....................Brandishing is a crime in most areas, and generally a bad idea in all areas.

Good training trumps internet scenarios any day...

fwiw,

lpl

That's very true. The fact of the matter is if they see you're armed, a group in such a scenario can accuse you of brandishing, whether you do or not. From a practical point of view, if I was up to no good I wouldn't alienate the police with a concocted story. Who said criminals are smart..........?

 

[bikerdoc]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc.

With just those fact of your hypothetical.
How about .
Go back to where you were.
go into some place else
Get in the car and lock the door

and as Ken asked,

Tell us why you went for your pistol?

 

[fireside44]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol. Let's assume you brandish it at this point.

"Let's assume you brandish it at this point"

Now we can assume you have broken the law and the label "thug" could just as easily be applied to you.

 

[Sheldon J]

OK when the Kid in Orlando came running out of the bushes at me at a gas station (he was planing a snatch n go) and I went for the HK all I had to do was show my weapon n he ran off in a different direction like his rear was on fire, call it anything you want but it was self defense period, and so is this scenario he who calls 911 first has the upper hand in the eyes of the law just remember that.

 

[smhbbag1]

Very simple. Any question that begins with "What would you say if......?"

The answer is always NOTHING.

Officer: "They say you were threatening them with your weapon. What do you have to say?"
You: *chirps*
Officer: "I'm just trying to help you. Explain the situation so I can understand what happened."
You: *chirps*
Officer: "If we cannot sort this out here, we're going to have to sort it out downtown. I just want what's best for everybody here."
You: *chirps*

 

[figment]

at the point you have drawn/presented you must have already made the decision that deadly force is warranted. The ONLY thing that will change your mind from that point forward is the assailants compliant behavior.

 

[figment]

the first part of post 6 is a classic example of:

you may beat the wrap but you'll still get the ride!

 

[kgpcr]

Bad call. What have they done to threaten you?? Man guys who would pull a gun in this situation scare me more than the bad guys do. OK you pull your gun and they are just standing by your car. they are not leaving but they are not doing what you tell them to. what are you going to do shoot them?? If so you should go to jail for a long time. They have done nothign to threaten you. Never pull your gun unless you are going to use it. You have no cause to use it in this situation.

 

[Ryder]

You protect yourself from brandishing charges by not "going for your gun" unless you fire it. When you take the state certified CPL course in Michigan they will tell you that. I don't recall any discussion about waving your gun around like a magic wand.

 

[aleeb]

Can't really suggest the correct response without a lot more details, but there are two general principles to keep in mind.

[1] If you feel you must deploy lethal force or the threat of lethal force, you must be able to articulate: (A) why a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what you know, would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent; and (B) why a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that your alleged assailant had (1) the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm; (2) the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and (3) put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple.

[2] If you display lethal force and the threat withdraws, your very next act should be to get on your cell phone and report the encounter to the police. The first to report tends to be perceived as the victim and will have the most credibility.

If you can safely avoid a confrontation, that will be the best result.

+1

I should also add that I think the definition of a reasonable person also includes that you know all the applicable laws. Ignorance isn't a defense, as far as I know.

M.O.I.

Means: Did they have the means to hurt you? I suppose they have 'disparity of force.' Check.
Opportunity: Did they have the opportunity to hurt you? Depending on how close you are, yes. Check.
Intent: Did they intend to hurt you? Given the information you've provided, no.

I'm pretty sure "they looked mean and liked my car" isn't going to persuade a jury that they had intent. In fact, if you drew your weapon, they'd probably be justified in shooting you.

Now, if one of the following happens, you might be able to argue for intent:
1) They say "hey, nice car" and then proceed to surround you with mean looks in their eyes.
2) They approach you and start making threatening aggressive gestures at you.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. Don't take this as legal advice.

 

[ilikepancakes]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc. You tell them you dont want any trouble, then go for your pistol.

No, I don't. I say "thanks", get in, and drive away. If it really looks bad I head back from whence I came and call the police.

I hope you're not so quick to draw in reality... you're not going to be carrying for long.

 

[rondog]

Let's add in a factor....of the group, one guy is doing the talking, while the rest of them are swiveling their heads in all directions, as if checking to make sure "the coast is clear". Anybody feel as if that would change your attitude/awareness? I sure do. That "head swiveling" is a bright red flag with flashing lights on it to me. I'd be sorely tempted to at least be prepared to draw, if not draw and hold it at my side.

I certainly wouldn't point it at anybody or wave it around, but I'd want it ready. I wouldn't want to wait until they charged to make my move.

 

[easyg]

So you are by yourself, walking to your car, and either a lone BG or a group of thugs comes your way. You sense something is going to happen. They get closer, start talking "Nice car" etc.

I say "thanks", get in my car, and drive away.

You tell them you dont want any trouble,

Well, if they start acting in a threatening or aggressive manner I take out my cell phone with my left hand, place my right hand on my holstered pistol, and tell them that I'm calling the cops.
I keep my eyes on them.

...then go for your pistol.

Only if they try to physically attack me.

Let's assume you brandish it at this point. You tell them in a loud voice to "back off" or "get out of here" etc. They run away, You call the police,

If I drew my pistol and they ran away then there's certainly no reason to get the police involved.

I would just thank my lucky stars that I didn't get killed or harmed and that I didn't have to shoot anyone, and then I would go home.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If I drew my pistol and they ran away then there's certainly no reason to get the police involved....

Sure there is. What if as soon as they get clear of you, the first thing they do is call the police and report that some nut job just threatened them with a gun?

By hypothesis, you have been threatened (assaulted) under circumstance which would have caused a reasonable person to believe that the use of lethal force in response was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. Such an assault is a serious, violent crime, and you were the victim. It needs to be reported ASAP.

Now the other guys could report that they had just been threatened (assaulted) with lethal force, but were able to escape. Such an assault is a serious, violent crime, committed by you, unless you were legally justified. They could claim to be the victims.

Their story could be that they just complimented you on your very neat car, and for no reason, you pulled a gun on them. Your story will have something to do with how some things about their manner caused you to believe that they were just about to attack you and kill or seriously injure you.

The first to report, is generally seen as the victim and tends to have the greatest credibility. You want to be the first to report the incident and tell your story.