Self Defense Scenario- What would you do?

[easyg]

Sure there is. What if as soon as they get clear of you, the first thing they do is call the police and report that some nut job just threatened them with a gun?

The odds are that a bunch of thugs, or even wannabe thugs, are not going to call the cops...for anything.
I'm willing to take my chances.
Besides, even if I did call the cops, they could still claim that I'm just some nut job that pulled a gun on them for no reason.

Such an assault is a serious, violent crime, and you were the victim. It needs to be reported ASAP.

Having a bunch of guys make threatening remarks or threatening gestures does NOT make me a victim.
Yes, i understand what you're saying....it does from a legal standpoint, but IMO that's just a big load of manure.
Everybody is a "victim" these days....a society of victims.
It makes me sick.
No way I would call the cops for such nonsense.

The first to report, is generally seen as the victim and tends to have the greatest credibility. You want to be the first to report the incident and tell your story.

If it doesn't go to court then it will not matter.
And if it does go to court I seriously doubt that the fact that I called the cops first would sway any judge or jury.
It wouldn't sway me if I were on the jury.
All that would really matter is this: can the "gun guy" prove that he was being threatened?
I know, I know....it sucks, but a jury must consider the provable facts.

 

[Dravur]

What if a group of guys were to come up to you and say..."You got a purty mouth"

What would you do then? hehe

 

[BullfrogKen]

Smile.

 

[Kleanbore]

The odds are that a bunch of thugs, or even wannabe thugs, are not going to call the cops...for anything.
I'm willing to take my chances.

How about a third party making the report?

Besides, even if I did call the cops, they could still claim that I'm just some nut job that pulled a gun on them for no reason.

Sure, but they could file a complaint on you anyway, but had you filed a report, your credibility would be enhanced and you would not be on the defensive.

Having a bunch of guys make threatening remarks or threatening gestures does NOT make me a victim.

You might be right. Of course, if you were not a victim, your presenting a weapon would constitute a criminal act.

No way I would call the cops for such nonsense.

Have it your way.

If it doesn't go to court then it [that the first to report, is generally seen as the victim and tends to have the greatest credibility] will not matter.

However, it might determine whether it does go to court, and whether it is you or the other folks who are the defendants.

And if it does go to court I seriously doubt that the fact that I called the cops first would sway any judge or jury.

Legal opinion?

It wouldn't sway me if I were on the jury.

OK, then.

All that would really matter is this: can the "gun guy" prove that he was being threatened?

Well, not quite. Where does the burden of proof lie?

Fiddletown responded before I could. In my lay opinion, he is on point.

I understand the sentiment that if the problem just goes away things might be fine. However, once one has presented a weapon, he is at risk, and his failure to take appropriate action immediately afterwards could result in irreparable harm.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The odds are that a bunch of thugs, or even wannabe thugs, are not going to call the cops...

You may be willing to bet on that, but I see no reason to do so. Some "thugs" are remarkably devious and clever. And as Kleanbore wrote, a third party might have phones it in.

...even if I did call the cops, they could still claim that I'm just some nut job that pulled a gun on them for no reason....

The way the police, and DA, are likely to see things is that it's the innocent party who calls it in. Not reporting a crime is generally seen in official circles as an indication of guilt.

...All that would really matter is this: can the "gun guy" prove that he was being threatened?
I know, I know....it sucks, but a jury must consider the provable facts....

Your testimony is evidence. The jury may or may not believe your testimony. If the jury believes you, that proves what you have testified about. But if they believe someone else, and not you, you lose.

So yes, a gun guy can prove with his testimony he was being threatened, but only if the jury believes him. Under such circumstances, it's good to lay a foundation that will incline the jury to believe you -- like having called in a report right away.

But easyg, do as you wish. It's not my problem.

 

[ishi]

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, the defendant would have you believe that he was put in mortal fear of his life by these four men. I ask you then - why did he not bother to even report this vicious assault? Because he was not the victim at all, but the aggressor - an unbalanced man obsessed with firearms, looking for the first opportunity to put a gun in somebody's face. The prosecution rests, your Honor."

Say hello to your cell-mate for me

 

[thorazine]

They run away, You call the police, they pick the guys up, and they say "some crazy guy pulled a gun on us and we just complimented him on his car."

Chances are you have a clean criminal record.

Chances are they have a very dirty and long criminal record.



Who do you really think will get the benefit of the doubt?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Chances are you have a clean criminal record.

Chances are they have a very dirty and long criminal record.



Who do you really think will get the benefit of the doubt?

And you're making a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be true.

Instead of guessing and maybe making things tougher on myself, I'll call and make a report. You do as you wish.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Chances are they have a very dirty and long criminal record.

Evidence of past history not known prior to the encounter is not admissible to the jury. Unless the attorney of those fine, upstanding young men in suits who claimed you pulled a gun on them starts to talk about how they are good citizens of the community who were just minding their own business when you pulled a gun on them, the jury won't learn of their criminal past until after the proceedings are over.

If they do make that claim, then your counsel can introduce evidence to the contrary.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Actually something similar happen near me, locked down a school after someone reported a group of "youth" threatened my a "middle age white man driving X type of car"

Cops pulled him over, and the next day the news paper ran the story much lower on the from page, seems the guy was approached by a group of individuals who had records and had been reported to the mall security and cops earlier, and the cops ruled it justified, you just had to watch the entire news hour to catch the 10 second blurb.

More is going to be required, and if it goes to court, you need a good lawyer, but most cops are more understanding of you pulling a gun on a criminal.

 

[bobby68]

My wife and I (I'm disabled, unable to run well) both think of this scenario, especially now that we have a 3 year old daughter. Apart from the fear of normal attacks, there has also been a recent crimes involving robbers targeting mothers with children, using the fear for the children as leverage to gain compliance.

One person reported a similar incident that the OP presented where group of men following man and wife through a park in evening. Wife says loudly to husband "pull down your shirt to make sure your gun isn't showing". I don't think that is brandishing is it?

Other possibilities i've considered:

1. When bg speaks to you, ask bg to stand by as you are busy on the telephone talking to the police. Even if the police are not on the line, you can speak as though you are. I try to keep the earpiece in my ear when walking in public for just this reason (to call police if necessary).

2. When you feel someone may be following you, actually call the police, give location and explain your concerns that you might now being stalked. Or at least call another friend to explain what's happening, even voicemail if that's the best you can do in case of kidnapping or murder.

3. If too far from your vehicle before being intercepted, you might change directions to verify that they are following you (or split up if with another person both to make a close up target harder and to help set up a crossfire if both armed).

4. Preparing for the time someone violates your (our) "personal space" i've considered asking strangers to stand back away from my daughter for quarantine/health reasons.

I'm open to any constructive additions.

 

[Fred Fuller]

bobby68,

Your statements in the post above involve a lot of talking to the bad guy. If you anticipate doing that, I'd suggest some study as to what makes those folks tick and what various scripts (if any) they might be following. See http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2005/03_StudyDay.htm , http://www.verbaljudo.com/ etc. for material that might help with this. Hint: Don't bluff if you can't back it up. Street criminals are practiced at reading body language, it's part of the skillset that helps them survive on the street ( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92000147 , http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200812/marked-mayhem ).

Look into the training offered by Southnarc ( http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp )- it's pretty specific for what you're asking about. While situational awareness is critical, it's understood that sometimes our awareness fails. That's especially the case when children are present, and I wouldn't be surprised if the distractions of children didn't have as much to do with their parents passing the victim selection process as anything else. The added leverage that an implied threat to the child gives the thug is just one more advantage.

As far as awareness itself is concerned, see http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html for a good outline of what to be looking for. There is a wealth of good material at the site.

Concerning the individual defender's mindset in dealing with a violent unprovoked attack, there is no better primer IMHO than Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense ( http://www.paladin-press.com/product/772/Other_Combat_Shooting ).

If you carry a firearm, know when and how to use it. Many shooters insist they don't need professional training in order to be fully effective with their choice of defensive firearms. Some don't, but I see enough reports in the press of 'good guy' failures on the street and in the home ( http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/ , http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/ ) to make me wish that more people would take advantage of the excellent instructors available to them.

If you can't carry a firearm where you live, think about other effective options that are available to you, procure whatever items you need and learn how to use them effectively. Whether it be pistol, knife, pepper spray, a walking cane or whatever else, the tool itself is tertiary to the will and skill to use it in defense of yourself and your family if necessary.

hth,

lpl

 

[Webbj0219]

The thought that a bad guy would attack a father right in front of his kid is just shocking to me. That just doesnt seem human. I could see the reasons why someone would mug someone else, to survive or get drugs. Whatever it is. But you gotta be some kinda robot or just have absolutly no heart to do it in front of their kids. Ive heard there are sick ppl out there like that. But Id just like to think that most crooks out there would pass up a potential mark if kids were present.

 

[Darkninja]

The thought that a bad guy would attack a father right in front of his kid is just shocking to me. That just doesnt seem human. I could see the reasons why someone would mug someone else, to survive or get drugs. Whatever it is. But you gotta be some kinda robot or just have absolutly no heart to do it in front of their kids. Ive heard there are sick ppl out there like that. But Id just like to think that most crooks out there would pass up a potential mark if kids were present.

You'd be surprised what lows human beings can reach.

I remember a home invasion not too long ago (3-4 months?) where a well organized group of 4(?) men or so entered a couples house and killed them with children present. To ignore this fact is to ignore reality.

 

[uspJ]

The thought that a bad guy would attack a father right in front of his kid is just shocking to me. That just doesnt seem human. I could see the reasons why someone would mug someone else, to survive or get drugs. Whatever it is. But you gotta be some kinda robot or just have absolutly no heart to do it in front of their kids. Ive heard there are sick ppl out there like that. But Id just like to think that most crooks out there would pass up a potential mark if kids were present.

it makes perfect sense to a criminal. if your being distracted by a child (which is easily done) you are not aware of your surroundings and are much easier to be caught off guard, also most would be less likely to resist the demands of a criminal due to the fear that their child may be harmed in an altercation. most people will completly submit to a criminal if they feel it will keep their child safe from harm even if it is at a cost to the parents well being.

 

[HOWARD J]

Your handle " DetroitStudent"
If you are talking about this happening in Detriot---you are wasting your time calling the cops---they ain't gonna come.
In Detriot they only come for the bodies...................
BIN THERE...........................

 

[KingEdward]

if you can get in the car (they are on the opposite side and closing in)
and leave, then leave.

if I could not get in the car and leave safely then I would stand still,
make direct eye contact with the closest potential threat, put my hand
where he knows the next thing that might happen is the magnum may
come out.

He/they will either carry out their plan of attack, or, he will stop, look around,
signal and they will move on.

This has happened to me a couple of times and both times he or they
moved on.

 

[sonick808]

so glad i live in AZ. you can defensively display. Castle doctrine rides in a bubble all around you wherever you are. BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON GRAND JURY / STATE to prove wrongdoing. "who called 911 first" and all that B/S is moot.

In this hypothetical, I would run. Run for the hills. I don't care how weak i look. I have a gun on me, I don't want to take a life or get entangled in a mess that involves prison or jail. RUN! If they pursue, attempt to ID a defensive post to turn and shoot. If they overcome, be drawn and ready to shoot into their mass.

 

[kayak-man]

I think context has a lot to do with your response. If you drive a Ferrari, then I would not be surprised if some one were to compliment your car. I think that the key is to determine if they really are a BG. My response would be something along the lines "Thanks, but filling it ups a pain." If I even THINK they are a BG, my weapon is in my hand. I can get away with that because I don't carry a gun. My weapon is a flashlight or my folder. Theres nothing strange about a guy carrying a light, and I don't open or display my folder; its my hand in my otherwise empty pocket. The BG doesn't see it, but I can deploy it if I have to.
I like where your head is at, thinking about after the encounter. The only problem that I could see in your scenario was that you didn't decide that they were a BG. They were a threat (as I consider most people who walk in a straight line towards me) and in the post you labeled them as the BG/BGs, but you left out actually going from condition yellow to condition orange or red. That may have been implied when you labeled him a BG, but I think that that is an important step in the "DO I Draw" checklist. As others have pointed out, they didn't actually display a threat to your safety.
Is there any way you could get to your weapon without them seeing you do it? Keep it in a pocket holster, or have the "pouch" part of your jacket pocket cut out so its really just a hole you can reach through to get to your sidearm?

 

[mikana]

Here's a thought...

Flashlight's a great idea, weak hand, but you have to have it with you.

BG-"Nice car."

You- Light in the eyes- "Oh thanks, man!" friendly

BG- "get that f--in light outta my eyes!"

You- "Oh, sorry about that, have a good night!" friendly lower light beam on them to about stomach level.

BG- "can I borrow a dollar" whatever... you've called their hand by being friendly, but aware. Consider using cover and/or barriers between you and them.

You- "Sorry man, I'm in a really hurry."

They persist.

911 speed dial on speaker phone so they can hear it.

"911 what is your emergency"

"I am being followed, threatened by a group of four <description> males. I am <location>. I am a <your description> I am a ccw permit holder and have a black handgun which I haven't drawn yet, but there's four of them and one of me, so I may have to if they continue to threaten me. The first suspect is <flashlight in the guys face describe>, second, etc."

This is something you will have to rehearse mentally, but would be very effective. The 911 operator becomes a witness at that point. You play to her as you talk. 911 will record you and whatever they might be saying to you while your talking.

 

[kayak-man]

Mikana,
I like it.

 

[thorazine]

And you're making a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be true.

Instead of guessing and maybe making things tougher on myself, I'll call and make a report. You do as you wish.

Which are probably quite accurate.



According your location information you reside in California.

So you're screwed no matter what you do heh.

 

[DetroitStudent]

Im glad I got quite a bit of discussion going. Just as an FYI, the last thing I would ever want to do in life is brandish a pistol. I consider firearms as (naturally) a last resort. I think I have gotten some good responses so far, but where I live (Detroit), I think that sometimes it comes down to a judgement call.

I think some of the responses given here were not helpful, such as the one that I will "not be carrying for long." I think this comment was uncharitable and bordering rude. I have no desire to go to prison or be financially ruined for the rest of my life. As a concerned citizen who has had friends robbed, mugged, and sexually assaulted in one of the most dangerous parts of the country this is why I bring this situation up. In addition, when does a BG or group of BG's make *threatening gestures*? Im trying to think about what that would look like?!?

One of the other posters mentioned an interesting thought- if they started acting strangely, looking around etc. That was the point of my post. Not just a bunch of guys saying "nice car" after having a few drinks but acting suspiciously & setting off that primitive reflex of "I think there is going to be big trouble here..." I can count on one hand the times in my life I have had that feeling, and I hope to avoid a future confrontation at all costs.

 

[navyretired 1]

A percieved threat is not the LEO decision to make the person involved either feels threatened or not. If he feels like there is a threat of of deadly force his decision is the one that counts. Justifiable use of deadly force is when you feel you or someone else is threatened by possibly deadly force. Although the OP might have jumped the gun a bit he said he felt threatened.
This is a fine line and I probably would not have went guns as fast but I feel more self suficiant than most and have 2 other threat level defense options.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Justifiable use of deadly force is when you feel you or someone else is threatened by possibly deadly force...

But your subjective feeling may not be enough. The legal test is whether a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. So someone who is especially nervous or fearful and who overreacts may find himself in serous trouble even if he truly, subjectively felt in fear for his life.