School district sued for censoring founding documents

[larryw]

I NEVER said I was a lawyer.

I misinterpreted your inquiry as something of substance, not semantics. Fine, you win, I hang my head in shame.

Please go back over what I wrote. It is not binary (remember, I'm not a lawyer) and requires some thought to connect the dots. Hint: the relation isn't direct, but is used to understand how language, in this case, ten simple words may be interpreted in context (Congress = teacher, law = rule in class).

I did catch H&C last night for the first time in quite a while: too much CBS-ing on that show for my taste.

I'm starting to really dislike Hannity for many reasons, a jaw-dropping lack or intellectual honesty being primary. Him turning into a right-wing version of Chris Matthews with a heaping helping of Lawrence O'Donnel being another.

I think Williams' comments more than verified my take on the issue, paraphrasing "this whole thing about the Declaration of Independence and Constitution has been blown way out of proportion, They are reprinted in full in my text books and are taught." Earth to Hannity: you were just made a fool of on your own show and you let that slide...

What was the Reuters headline, "Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School"? Hmm, I don't see a retraction/correction on the wire yet...

I also found it interesting Williams' lawyer was on the show and hijacked a couple responses. But even the lawyer said that Williams doesn't have the right to espouse one religion over all others while at school. The quote that Colmes raised (twice before he got Williams to admit that he used it in class) closed the door on that issue.

Clearly, Colmes was the only of the pair who did any real homework. Sad as I am to say it, that seems to be the norm for those two.

I saved the program on my Tivo so I can provide a transcription when I have time, hopefully tonight. I want to make sure I get the quote and attribution Colmes raised correct before I provide it here.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

larryw I caught the show as well simply because I was interested in the case and I agree with the points you made. Additionally it seems that the crowd was very biased as well. No matter what the point, one could expect cheers for Hannity and boos for Colmes.

I lost my final shred of respect for Hannity when he began pestering Newdow about his daughter instead of discussing the issue at hand.

 

[larryw]

By the way, I was just told about an editorial in our local tiny paper: A little misinformation can stir a lynch mob. Contrast that with the Letters to the Editor.

Ooooh, look there's also an article, Local school deluged with messages of anger, hate.

 

[larryw]

CC: do doubt H&C packed the audience; didn't the first question from the audience come from a lady who lives in OK? Heck, I live almost across the street from the college and drive by the Flint Center's playbill every day and I didn't know about this (but I don't listen to his show any more).

But one point I want to make is this CA is a blue state issue. The audience I saw was a lot closer to what I see every day than how CA is portrayed in the media (and here). CA is not SF, LA, Hollywood or Berkley. Try driving around with a Bush/Cheney '04 bumper sticker to understand. Easily 10-1 I get people honking and waving over flipping me off. Most are closet conservatives and live a conservative lifestyle, but they're told they're in the minority and feel intimidated. I'm a vocal and proud conservative, and at 6'5", 240#, don't intimidate easily.

CA is a perfect example why we as a nation live in a republic.

If one looks at the county by county map of CA, you see the majority of it is Red (I think the red designation should be assigned to the left and blue to the right, but what the heck). If you look at voter initiatives, CA overwhelmingly votes conservative. But if you look at the gerrymandered districts, the left has managed to hijack how reps are elected and we wind up with this misrepresentation of legislative power. http://www.fairdistrictsnow.com

 

[Pharon]

I NEVER said I was a lawyer.

This is my stupidity in not recognizing the quote marks around what you cited:

As legal complaints only portray one side of an argument, reasonable people reserved judgment until they got the full story. Notable was one commentator's well considered take, "As a lawyer, however, I should note that most allegations asserted in pleadings are untrue. So news reports based on what someone has stated in a legal complaint should always be taken with a huge grain of salt."

My bad.

I misinterpreted your inquiry as something of substance, not semantics. Fine, you win, I hang my head in shame.

Huh? I wasn't looking to be "right" here, or to prove you "wrong" -- I was only trying to get clarification on what I was missing in the case you cited. But if there is none to be found (from a legal standpoint, anyway), we can leave it at that.

I'm starting to really dislike Hannity for many reasons, a jaw-dropping lack or intellectual honesty being primary. Him turning into a right-wing version of Chris Matthews with a heaping helping of Lawrence O'Donnel being another.

Couldn't agree more. Every time I hear this guy, I find myself liking him (and respecting him) less and less.

 

[larryw]

Pharon, looking back at my responses to you, I didn't give you the respect and courtesy you deserved. Please accept my apology with the poor excuse that this episode hits too close to home for me to be thinking and acting entirely rationally.

I did manage to get my grubby little paws on the lesson that started this whole episode (a friend's child was in Williams' class last year). I have retyped it in its entirety in what I believe is an exact transcription and present it to THR for comment. I'll try to post a transcription of the H&C interview tonight (unless my better half has other plans):

Activities on Exploring Easter and Why it's Relevant in our Culture and Nation

Christianity has a huge influence on our nation and so during the Easter season it's important to know why Christians celebrate this 'Holy'-day and what impact Jesus Christ has had on our society and Nation. Pick 2 of the following activities and present them next week.

• Read the Easter story in the bible. Start reading Luke, chapter 22 and continue to the end of the book of Luke. Write a response to some of the themes in the Easter story for the bible: betrayal, sacrifice, resurrection, love, home, new life. Write a response to any of the themes in the story using references from the bible and show how they apply to our culture today. Make a diorama of a scene from he story and attach your written response.

• Interview a Christian family that celebrates Easter and write about what they do and why they do it, Write a summary of your interview and give an oral presentation to the class on what you found using props and anything appropriate to enhancing your presentation.

• John Adams wrote, "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." He also wrote a paper called, "American Independence was Achieved Upon the Principles of Christianity." Write a one page report on why he felt so strongly that this nation should be founded on Christian principles and quote some primary sources.

• Review some of the famous teachings of Jesus Christ such as: the Golden Rule, the Sermon on the Mount, and parable of Good Samaritan. Write a response to this teaching and how it is applied today in our culture and examples of how it has shaped our nation. Present a short oral presentation or skit to the class which demonstrates what you learned.

• You will pretend to be a newspaper reporter and you will need to interview someone who works for a church near you. Ask them, what will their church be doing to remember Jesus' death and resurrection? Why is Easter important to them? Write a one page article based on your interview.

Pick 2 of the activities to complete by next Wed. 4/14

 

[RevDisk]

Uhm, that assignment does read more like an assignment for a CCD class than for a public school. Why was this guy surprised that someone might object?

Larry, I feel for you. It's never fun to be collected to a school that is this week's scandal. Best of luck, I hope things stay calm and peaceful.

 

[larryw]

Did anyone happen to tape the live broadcast of H&C last night? I watched the 7:00PM PST showing and taped the 11:00PM showing.

What I remember watching at 7 is not what I have taped and I'd like to reconcile this discrepency.

Please PM me!

thanks,
Larry

 

[Pharon]

Pharon, looking back at my responses to you, I didn't give you the respect and courtesy you deserved. Please accept my apology with the poor excuse that this episode hits too close to home for me to be thinking and acting entirely rationally.

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for, but I accept. And if I wasn't clear before, I'm pretty sure I agree with you on this issue completely anyway.

The lesson plan you posted is downright scary. I hope that the defense uses it as evidence in court. Now I am even more pissed off at Hanity than I was before. They are obviously capitalizing on the hype of this, which has absolutely no basis in reality.

 

[M1911Owner]

I don't see that lesson plan as all that scary. It's not much different than one you might see these days about how the Palestinians feel about their Israeli "occupiers", or about women's role in society before feminism, or learning about Islam.

That said, objections to that lesson plan would be a long way from "censoring founding documents."

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If that's the lesson plan, it hass nothing to do with the founding documents, virtually nothing to do with American History, and belongs in Sunday school class, not a history class.

 

[larryw]

Quick update: I got a copy of H&C's 6:00 broadcast. My recollection was wrong and everything has been reconciled.

M1911Owner, I had to read that a couple times before I really "got it"

I have a couple problems with the lesson plan.

First, (I was once told by one I trust, but have no first-hand knowledge. Can anyone confirm?) in some religions, reading the bible, entering a Christian church or even acknowledging tenants of Christianity like the Resurrection are mortal sins. If true, this may cause problems for some students.

Second, when you look at the two non-associated writings by John Adams, one could easily imply that only Christians may participate in our Constitution and all other religions are inadequate and subservient.

But what is missing from the (current) public record is Williams' grading and comments on this coursework. I'm certain that will be corrected as the case moves forward.

Some students in SF are forced to follow a similar curriculum, the only difference being the religion (Islam). The outrage is justifiable, and the fundamental issue is the same here.

Religion is a personal and family issue. Faith is not to be dictated, molded or berated by a randomly selected teacher at a public school.

 

[larryw]

My letter to the Editor (of many media outlets, and counting)

I find it stunning how many have taken a seemingly malicious view of Cupertino's Stevens Creek Elementary School, a view fostered by factually inaccurate portrayals of a recent legal case. As a result, the teachers, staff and principal of Stevens Creek Elementary are being threatened and operate under the protection of the Santa Clara County Sheriff's department. Try explaining to your child why police have suddenly surrounded the school, "No honey, you're safe."

Please allow me, as an active parent at the school, to correct some of these errors.

1. The founding documents are taught in the proper historical and religious context, published in full in textbooks and reproductions are displayed prominently at Stevens Creek Elementary School.

2. God is not banned at Stevens Creek Elementary School. Students sing patriotic songs such as "God Bless America" in class and school assemblies; and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the correct version that includes “God,†every day.

3. Williams (the claimant) has himself contradicted the assertion that he is prohibited from teaching the founding documents in the proper historical or religious context.

When all the hype is stripped away, the case actually revolves around a principal responding to many parental complaints that a public school teacher was attempting to shape the religious beliefs of his students, contrasted with that teacher’s well intentioned desire to change school, district and state policy through federal litigation.

Larry Woodard
Cupertino, CA

 

[Pharon]

Quick update: I got a copy of H&C's 6:00 broadcast.

Larry, where did you get this? I assume someplace online? Could you post the link?

Also, could you clarify what type of class Williams teaches? Is it U.S. History?

 

[JohnBT]

"in some religions, reading the bible, entering a Christian church or even acknowledging tenants of Christianity like the Resurrection are mortal sins."

I have no current knowledge, but when I was kid in Baltimore in the late '50s the Catholic boys on my block could not even join the scout troop I belonged to that met at the Methodist Church around the corner. Of course, back then the Mass was in Latin, so things have likely changed (except for the stories about some of the Priests.)

Then we moved to Montgomery County MD and the local troop in Rockville did not allow knives. Can you imagine camping and every time you need a knife you have to go ask a leader for one?

John

 

[larryw]

A neighbor taped the show. It wasn't online, and if it was, I'm sure they pulled it.

Williams to Hannity 12/8: "[T]he now famous, 'the Declaration was banned', well, my kids have read the Declaration, so that's a bit of a stretch."

I've been advised by a friend not to post the full transcript at this time, sorry.

 

[Pharon]

A neighbor taped the show. It wasn't online, and if it was, I'm sure they pulled it.

Why would you say that? By the way, I found a "partial" transcript of the exchange here, though I have no idea why they didn't just post the whole damn thing in the first place.

I've been advised by a friend not to post the full transcript at this time, sorry.

Why? If it was aired to the public, it should be fair game. It's not like you're making money from it.

 

[larryw]

There are some other issues there. But the transcript is posted and its a moot point now (THANKS! I missed that).

I submit the following exchange and ask you to consider how that reconciles with the lesson plan posted above. Considering the fact that the school has a Bible study and prayer group that meets on school grounds, which Williams participates in, I didn't think he surrendered his rights simply because he is a teacher.

Lorence is William's lawyer.

COLMES: Does that mean that your client has the right to share the Gospel?

LORENCE: He does not as a school employee, no, but he does as a regular person. He doesn't surrender his rights simply because he's a schoolteacher.

 

[Pharon]

My only response to that exchange is that when he's teaching in front of a class, he is not an individual, but rather a representative of the government. And in that respect, the free exercise clause does not apply, so there is nothing to surrender. Outside the classroom is a different story. But while he's teaching, he has no right to use the government to advance his religious beliefs. No more than any other government official does.