School Intruders
- Thread starter Hadaku
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FOF class this weekend (www.krtraining.com BTW) - anyway - we were discussing after incident events. A guy has an intruder - calls the cops and informs them of the armed BG- intruder flees - our guy runs out the door in his underwear with shotgun in his hands. Cops arrive at this time, as they go to the door, it flies open as Mr. Underpants charges out with gun in hand to go after the intruder. Cops shoot him.
Convenience store robbery - shots fired at a previous location - BG goes to convenience store - cop pulls up and takes cover - door flies open and three folks charge out - cop opens fire. Oops, they were the clerk and customer. Yes, the cop got in trouble.
Convenience store robbery - shots fired at a previous location - BG goes to convenience store - cop pulls up and takes cover - door flies open and three folks charge out - cop opens fire. Oops, they were the clerk and customer. Yes, the cop got in trouble.
DarkSoldier
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No disrespect to GEM (he may be absolutely right) but I won't be joining him in the corner to await the text message. I'll be with FourNineFoxtrot doing whatever we can with what we have at hand to terminate the threat.
I think we betray our own arrogance when we disrespect others who disagree with us by accusing them of smack talking or internet chest beating. The implication, intended or not, is that they talk the talk but wouldn't walk the walk while we, being wiser and more experienced, would make a better choice. I don't know any of you well enough to make that determination about you.
As for me, I don't believe in no win scenarios. There is always something one can do. That said, I will admit that, in some circumstances, that choice may well boil down to huddling in a corner and waiting for a text message.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
I think we betray our own arrogance when we disrespect others who disagree with us by accusing them of smack talking or internet chest beating. The implication, intended or not, is that they talk the talk but wouldn't walk the walk while we, being wiser and more experienced, would make a better choice. I don't know any of you well enough to make that determination about you.
As for me, I don't believe in no win scenarios. There is always something one can do. That said, I will admit that, in some circumstances, that choice may well boil down to huddling in a corner and waiting for a text message.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Dark Soldier - you misread what I am saying.
I want to clearly point out that the glibness of internet folks saying they will do XY and Z with available items is not realistic given the actual situation.
I've tried a simulation of folks in a standard classroom getting up and charging the shooter. Expecting a class of kids to do that without repeated training is not realistic. It is also a blood bath for the first rows. Yes, it's a blood bath if you stay put but let's not chest pound.
I discuss chest pounding as I have no respect to solutions that are posted to say I will not go down without a fight but have no reality. It's more for the ego of the poster.
I have also tried a simulation of the laptop throw in a standard classroom against a surprise shooter. Guess what, a good shooter gets off about ten shots before the lap top takes to the air when both start at the buzzer. That's not a surprise start where he just walks in and open on the first rows like Cho did. Guess what, the back rows are too far to throw the laptop.
There is a chance of an ambush at the door if you know the shooter is coming. Or barricading it if you have a door that opens in. However, in some of the shootings it didn't work, in some it did.
As far as huddling in the corner - folks need to understand sarcasm - I was commenting on the idiotic instructions I've been given. Duh.
The only realistic solution for school shootings is that folks be allowed to carry. I don't want to entertain the charge of the laptop brigade or SuperStaplerMan to the rescue as they are last ditch kamikaze efforts and proposing them reinforces the fools who won't allow carry by those with CCW or CHLs.
Get the point now. I want us to say that we should be able to carry.
If the guy who charged Cho at VT had a gun, maybe he would have carried the day.
It is for each person to decide if they want to charge, flee or play dead. Each has worked in some situations. It depends. However, I want thought behind the decisions.
I want to clearly point out that the glibness of internet folks saying they will do XY and Z with available items is not realistic given the actual situation.
I've tried a simulation of folks in a standard classroom getting up and charging the shooter. Expecting a class of kids to do that without repeated training is not realistic. It is also a blood bath for the first rows. Yes, it's a blood bath if you stay put but let's not chest pound.
I discuss chest pounding as I have no respect to solutions that are posted to say I will not go down without a fight but have no reality. It's more for the ego of the poster.
I have also tried a simulation of the laptop throw in a standard classroom against a surprise shooter. Guess what, a good shooter gets off about ten shots before the lap top takes to the air when both start at the buzzer. That's not a surprise start where he just walks in and open on the first rows like Cho did. Guess what, the back rows are too far to throw the laptop.
There is a chance of an ambush at the door if you know the shooter is coming. Or barricading it if you have a door that opens in. However, in some of the shootings it didn't work, in some it did.
As far as huddling in the corner - folks need to understand sarcasm - I was commenting on the idiotic instructions I've been given. Duh.
The only realistic solution for school shootings is that folks be allowed to carry. I don't want to entertain the charge of the laptop brigade or SuperStaplerMan to the rescue as they are last ditch kamikaze efforts and proposing them reinforces the fools who won't allow carry by those with CCW or CHLs.
Get the point now. I want us to say that we should be able to carry.
If the guy who charged Cho at VT had a gun, maybe he would have carried the day.
It is for each person to decide if they want to charge, flee or play dead. Each has worked in some situations. It depends. However, I want thought behind the decisions.
george29
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If the door open in then using a doorjamb would be the safest bet the minute the alarm went off. If the door opens out the solution is more difficult but not impossible if a metal hook were to be hooked from the inside holding the outside portion of the door, on the inside portion the hook should have an eyelet (whole thing looks like a big fishing hook but flat), tie the hok eith rope to something heavy.
Other than that, have a weapon of sorts, wrist rocket, can of oven spray, bow & arrow.
Other than that, have a weapon of sorts, wrist rocket, can of oven spray, bow & arrow.
Rifleman 173
Member
A gun free zone, like a school or posted mall as anti-gun, is nothing more than an illegal hunting ground for humans used by some anti-gun nut trying to prove that guns are bad things.
Fewer than 1% of ALL guns are EVER used to commit any kind of crime. I know because I compared the FBI annual crime stats with the number of firearms estimated to be owned by civilians in our country. Look up the stats and compare them. It ALWAYS comes down to LESS than 1% of all guns in the USA are ever used to commit ANY kind of crime.
In this day and age, with all the anti-gun nuts and other single-issue crazies out there, I would NEVER send any of my kids to a school of ANY kind that did not have an armed police officer or guard available. I want my kids to be as safe as I can make them. You want my kid to go to your school? I want my child protected by a highly trained and ARMED guard or police officer. I want to give my kid a fair chance to grow up which is why his safety in your school demands a highly trained ARMED guard or police officer.
Fewer than 1% of ALL guns are EVER used to commit any kind of crime. I know because I compared the FBI annual crime stats with the number of firearms estimated to be owned by civilians in our country. Look up the stats and compare them. It ALWAYS comes down to LESS than 1% of all guns in the USA are ever used to commit ANY kind of crime.
In this day and age, with all the anti-gun nuts and other single-issue crazies out there, I would NEVER send any of my kids to a school of ANY kind that did not have an armed police officer or guard available. I want my kids to be as safe as I can make them. You want my kid to go to your school? I want my child protected by a highly trained and ARMED guard or police officer. I want to give my kid a fair chance to grow up which is why his safety in your school demands a highly trained ARMED guard or police officer.
DarkSoldier
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GEM,
With the exception of the sarcasm, I pretty much understood both your posts. If we want to use sarcasm in a mediated communication form like this one, we will always run the risk of being misunderstood. The verbal nuances and other cues that we use in normal conversation to determine the meaning of the speaker aren't there to help make it clear that you were attempting sarcasm. Add to that the fact that several so called safety experts have recommended that those caught in school shootings do exactly that (huddle and wait for instructions) and it's easy to see why I misunderstood.
I don't advocate training to fight maniacs with staplers or laptops or any other objects commonly found in school classrooms but I admire and respect the mindset, since for the foreseeable future, that will be all our students and teachers can arm themselves with.
As to internet chest thumping, I stand by my earlier statement that I don't know any of you well enough to accuse you of that. I have no idea of another poster's capabilities, training and mindset other than what they tell me in their posts and until I do, I will go on the assumption that they mean what they say.
I agree with you that the solution is to abolish these places where only murderous criminals can have guns, but until that happens (and it will not happen soon) people who are willing to act in their own defense are going to have to do as much as they can with whatever they can.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
With the exception of the sarcasm, I pretty much understood both your posts. If we want to use sarcasm in a mediated communication form like this one, we will always run the risk of being misunderstood. The verbal nuances and other cues that we use in normal conversation to determine the meaning of the speaker aren't there to help make it clear that you were attempting sarcasm. Add to that the fact that several so called safety experts have recommended that those caught in school shootings do exactly that (huddle and wait for instructions) and it's easy to see why I misunderstood.
I don't advocate training to fight maniacs with staplers or laptops or any other objects commonly found in school classrooms but I admire and respect the mindset, since for the foreseeable future, that will be all our students and teachers can arm themselves with.
As to internet chest thumping, I stand by my earlier statement that I don't know any of you well enough to accuse you of that. I have no idea of another poster's capabilities, training and mindset other than what they tell me in their posts and until I do, I will go on the assumption that they mean what they say.
I agree with you that the solution is to abolish these places where only murderous criminals can have guns, but until that happens (and it will not happen soon) people who are willing to act in their own defense are going to have to do as much as they can with whatever they can.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
CPerdue
Member
getting away with it
Waaay back in post#22, someone mentioned that you can get away with being armed in school, rules be damned, if you are discrete about it. Well that doesn't always work. I managed it for three years until I had to take a CPR class and got patted down while playing dead.
Would I be an armed student/staff/faculty in the future? Absolutely, but only with a fanny pack.
Meanwhile, now that I'm just a member of the public, I OC. Just because I can.
C.
Waaay back in post#22, someone mentioned that you can get away with being armed in school, rules be damned, if you are discrete about it. Well that doesn't always work. I managed it for three years until I had to take a CPR class and got patted down while playing dead.
Would I be an armed student/staff/faculty in the future? Absolutely, but only with a fanny pack.
Meanwhile, now that I'm just a member of the public, I OC. Just because I can.
C.
Dark Soldier - I hope we have cleared up the misinterpretations. My touch of sarcasm comes from being frustrated at my work environment at what I consider the nonsensical solutions that come down the pike to us.
I totally understand the mindset not to give in. My view is that this mindset is an overarching one that must fit into a view of tactical reality. Strategies and tactics that work need to be discuss.
Thus, I'm critical of those that seem not to be realistic in light of actual situation.
Faced with the dimensions of a typical classroom and its layout - for example, playing dead might just work after the first rows were killed - horrific thought, isn't it and it did work for some at Mumbai and Virginia Tech.
I just want folks to be aware of the reality before suggesting they would do this or that action automatically.
Nice talking to you.
I totally understand the mindset not to give in. My view is that this mindset is an overarching one that must fit into a view of tactical reality. Strategies and tactics that work need to be discuss.
Thus, I'm critical of those that seem not to be realistic in light of actual situation.
Faced with the dimensions of a typical classroom and its layout - for example, playing dead might just work after the first rows were killed - horrific thought, isn't it and it did work for some at Mumbai and Virginia Tech.
I just want folks to be aware of the reality before suggesting they would do this or that action automatically.
Nice talking to you.
DarkSoldier
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GEM,
Understood, and I appreciate your point of view. Thanks for the opportunity to share our thoughts on this critical issue. I think this one deserves all the brainstorming we can throw at it because, as the events in Mumbai proved once again, this isn't an isolated problem and it isn't going to go away. Stay safe.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
.
Understood, and I appreciate your point of view. Thanks for the opportunity to share our thoughts on this critical issue. I think this one deserves all the brainstorming we can throw at it because, as the events in Mumbai proved once again, this isn't an isolated problem and it isn't going to go away. Stay safe.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
.
hankdatank1362
Member
I attend two different colleges on two different campuses. Three if you count a course I had to take at a technical college last semester.
One campus is very nice (Coastal Carolina). Lots of police, concrete walls with solid, locking doors that open out, not in. Very tactically sound building.
The other college on the campus is not as nice. It's much more expensive, but there are window around every classroom to see (or shoot) through, and the flimsy door opens in.
However, my classmates and instructors in that campus include investigators, an air marshall, SLED (state law enforcement)agents, a county sheriff, some deputies, city cops, an assistant chief, a county coroner, and DOJ people. Not to mention the plethora of military and ex-military, correctional officers, and private security personnel.
Most carry. Oddly, the ones that I figure should (women, Sheriff, asst. chief, other older guys) don't. It's the young guys that carry.
One campus is very nice (Coastal Carolina). Lots of police, concrete walls with solid, locking doors that open out, not in. Very tactically sound building.
The other college on the campus is not as nice. It's much more expensive, but there are window around every classroom to see (or shoot) through, and the flimsy door opens in.
However, my classmates and instructors in that campus include investigators, an air marshall, SLED (state law enforcement)agents, a county sheriff, some deputies, city cops, an assistant chief, a county coroner, and DOJ people. Not to mention the plethora of military and ex-military, correctional officers, and private security personnel.
Most carry. Oddly, the ones that I figure should (women, Sheriff, asst. chief, other older guys) don't. It's the young guys that carry.
Deltaboy1984
Member
I work in a school and I carry a lock back knife and pepper spray. My neighbor is a former college baseball player who keeps a slugger in behind his desk. In our building we have 2 former Marines and 3 hardcore hunters. We have our plan in conjunction with our SRO.
I don't mean to be picky but this is probably not the best idea. If autorities are looking for an armed man in a school you just gave them yourself. I know you want to help and if you know the threat is that dangerous then go for it but keep that in mind.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
The university where my wife teaches just had a HUGE uproar- over a BB gun on campus. See the story at http://www.uncp.edu/pineneedle/PrintEdition/PN_2008-12-04_pg1.pdf and http://www.uncp.edu/pineneedle/PrintEdition/PN_2008-12-04_pg2.pdf .
I'll refrain from further comment...
lpl
I'll refrain from further comment...
lpl
blueballet
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Rooms should always have good locks just in case of these intruder scenarios.
Deltaboy1984
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Lee you wifes job is lead by Morons. A bb gun Please:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
MostlyHarmless
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Know the law. Know the rules. There are many college campuses where it is legal to carry (in most cases, with a permit) but where it is a violation of rules of student or faculty conduct to carry. While I would not advocate any unlawful actions, I believe that whether to respect rules of conduct established by a school is a personal one, ideally based on an assessment of relative risks and consequences.
younggun85
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Theres always the old flamable aerosol product+ Lighter solution. Far from ideal but speaking from experience as a mechanic, General Motors CLEANS in the eyes is blinding (about 5 minutes of water before your eyes aren't welded shut anymore) when it's not on fire. In flames i think you could ruin someones day long enough to jump them.
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