School me on 22 LR ammunition

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Potato,

For some extreme in depth conversations head over to Rimfire Central. That's where I first cut my teeth on internet forums. They're wonderful people and can tell you just about everything you want to know about .22s like how to work the wood, pillar and bedding, proper recrowning, etc...
Careful though, you might end up owning a CZ in every shape and size.
 
Centerfire handguns are mostly recoil-operated. The slide comes back on the rails of the frame, and unlocks the barrel from the slide. If you allow the frame to recoil too much, it nullifies the action.

Rimfire handguns are mostly blow-back and will function even if not held firmly

Whoa now, my little brain is struggling with that a little. Im sure I'll figure it out but "if you allow the frame to recoil it nullifies the action" but "it will function if not held firmly" seem like they cancel each other out.
 
I just wanted to chime in about FTF's in rimfire. Unlike centerfire guns, rimfire uses a priming compound that goes around the inside of the rim of the brass. Think of it like a toothpaste, on some areas of the toothbrush it'll be thicker and some areas it'll be thinner. Sometimes your firing pin hits an area where there isn't enough to set off your round. If you put that round back in your mag, 9 times out of 10 it'll fire on the second go around. When we shoot a ton of bulk rimfire, I usually have a little pile of FTF's at the end that I put in one of my revolvers, that always makes them go bang!

PH, a while back you and I were talking about a rimfire golf game* my neighbor and I made up. Sometime over the weekend I'll PM you pictures of the setup. It's cheap to do and it is a really good time!

*= all rimfire golf games are subject to .22 availability :cuss:
 
Whoa now, my little brain is struggling with that a little. Im sure I'll figure it out but "if you allow the frame to recoil it nullifies the action" but "it will function if not held firmly" seem like they cancel each other out.
In a recoil-operated gun, the slide and barrel move backward in relation to the frame. In a blow-back-operated gun the barrel and it's associated mounting hardware remained fixed in relation to the frame. Only the breechblock moves.
 
Whoa now, my little brain is struggling with that a little. Im sure I'll figure it out but "if you allow the frame to recoil it nullifies the action" but "it will function if not held firmly" seem like they cancel each other out.


Re read his post as he is describing the difference between two different recoil mechanisms one is a centerfire example and his second paragraph is a blowback rimfire example. Ie a glock 19 vs a Marlin model 60 have different recoil mechanisms. A remington r51 is different from both.
 
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Ok, gettin it fellas thanks. Lookin forward to hearing from you Ranger! And its safe to say you won the neighbor lottery. I'm smack between a widow whose grass I have to mow and a single gal whose gigantic shrub I have to trim every year:) I'm just joshin about it though, what comes around goes around I believe.
 
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Do you guys think I got the barrel clean enough?

Actually with most .22 rifles you are better off not cleaning so often. The bore must be lubricated with the lube provided by the cartridge and bullets. You will almost certainly do better after firing a few "fouling shots" to get your bore lubed with the ammo you're using. I know my accuracy picks up tremendously after I shoot about 30 rounds though the bore. Most people will say that's too much but I have paid very close attention to this over time. I've also won 15 of the last 17 competitions I shot in.

Here's where it really gets tricky. If you shoot 20 rounds of one type of ammo then start shooting another type of ammo (brands, velocity, bullet design, etc. all play a part) the different lubes used by different gun makers or even by the same gun maker on different rounds you will lose accuracy for a good while. The different lubes can combine to be more like glue than lube especially when you throw in powder residue. You'll either need to clean the bore completely and foul it with the ammo you intend to use or you can shoot even more fouling rounds to allow the current ammo to lube the barrel and drive out all the lube from the previous ammo. It generally takes about 50 rounds of fouling ammo to achieve this.

I've seen ammo go from shooting .75" groups at 50 yards to shooting .25" groups at the same distance after getting the bore fouled correctly. The only time I actually clean a bore is when I start to have accuracy problems or with a semi-auto I sometimes get feeding problems. But the feeding problems are more connected to the action being gummed up than the bore being fouled. I do clean the action more often than the bore which most people will say is exactly backwards. But I know it works to do this.

Top level shooters don't do things like I do AFAIK (I'm not one of them so I really am not sure). From what I hear they clean like you are cleaning. But they are using bores that are cut to very tight tolerances and they get accuracy problems pretty quick with burned powder residue etc.. Keep in mind that they swap barrels after just a few hundred rounds sometimes and they will sometimes go through several barrels before deciding on one they like. I do know some top level shooters and they have told me these things.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here is lot numbers. Every batch of ammo is different. The same brand and type of ammo can vary a great deal from one production run to another. Sometimes it makes a huge difference. Top level shooters will go through testing of lots of ammo trying to find the good stuff. Then when they do they buy it by the pallet. Being a top level shoorter is NOT cheap as you no doubt see.

For the most part one brand and type of rimfire ammo will be pretty close to other lots of the same ammo at least for ammo us mere mortals use. But there's no guarantee that the top level brands of ammo will even be consistently good. I have some Eley Tenex that has never grouped that well in any rifle I own except for one but I actually sold that rifle. It wouldn't shoot anything else well at all.

So picking the right ammo is sometimes more art than science. First finding the ammo that works best with your rifle is the main thing. That gets most of us the accuracy we want. If you want to win contests finding the right lot number on the boxes of ammo your gun likes is the next step. It is not easy to do that BTW. It generally involved calling retailers and wholesalers all across the country to find the ammo in large quantities. BTW even centerfire ammo off the shelf does the same thing. You will need to buy the right lot number of ammo for that too unless you do what most good centerfire shooters do which is make their own ammo. They are essentially sidestepping the production issues of rimfire ammo by limiting the powder, the primer, and the bullet and the way it's all put together. It's not economically feasilbe to do this with rimfire though. It's more complicated to make than centerfire and it's much cheaper to buy off the shelf. And it's harder to make it consistent the way I hear things about reloading rimfire. Very, very few people do that.

What I do when I buy a new rifle is to buy up a couple of boxes of all the major types of ammo I see around all the time then I start testing remembering to foul the bore with every type of ammo I test. Once I settle on a good type I start looking for different lots of that ammo. I pick one of those and try to buy up as much of that lot as I can which is usually not easy to do. I keep my eye on what lots work well as I buy ammo for my rifles over the years and I always try to go back for more of any lot that works well. I have some success at this but it's not a given that it can even be done. But I can usually buy ammo that is the best type for my rifle.

One last thing. Ammo makers change how they build ammo after a while. When they do that with the ammo your rifle likes you will likely have to start all over from scratch looking for the right type of ammo again. It is a real pain to do that. I generally keep a lot of different types around from when I've done previous testing though so I don't have to buy new ammo every time. Sometimes I find a good type in the stuff I have put back but then find it's been changed too.

Again buying ammo is an art. Good luck. I will say that the best ammo I've found by far is Gold Medal Ultra Match. Be aware that there are imitations of that ammo made by the same company (Federal). They have ammo out like "Premium Gold Medal" which is NOT the same thing as Gold Medal Ultra Match. First off it cost about 10 times as much to get the good stuff. That's the first giveaway. Americans won in the Olympics with Gold Medal Ultra Match. But it has also gone out of production now. I still find it because it hasn't been gone that long and not many people are willing to pay the price ti brings. I pay about $18 a box for it (50 rounds). It often costs more than that but I don't buy it when it does. I have a good supply in my safe now anyway. Heck the ammo costs more than the rifle ever will. That's something else people should know when they take up shooting.
 
Cee Zee for the sake of the Op and myself can you explain your fouling and testing procedure? I typically have fouled bore by firing one shot per minute for 25 minutes and then shot for 5-shot groups for another 25 shots at 30 second intervals to keep bore temp consistent. However that is only 50 shots and it sounds like I might need that just to get the bore lubed right according to you.

This is near and dear to me because right now I just can't find an accurate ammo for one of my rifles and it is irritating me to no end and maybe it's my testing procedure. My Marlin 60 groups under a .75" and I want this other rifle to do the same (50 yards).
 
Thanks for the info fellas. Luckily, a fine gentleman here at THR that's taught me a lot about handloading is sending me some different types to try out.

Im almost totally new to 22 and Im soaking all this up. A few months ago my dad gave me a winchester 67a that he got in high school and Ive fired about 10 shots thru it. Thats about the extent of my experience before my, oops, our sr22.
 
Cee Zee for the sake of the Op and myself can you explain your fouling and testing procedure?

It's pretty simple really. I don't pay a lot of attention to the first 30 rounds I fire with a new brand of ammo or when I'm just switching from one brand of ammo to another. Keeping the bore temp even might be something I can learn to do. Mostly I just keep my rifles shooting and then learn their characteristics by volume of practice.

I will shoot about 30 rounds out of a box of ammo then pay attention to how it groups. I don't spend a lot of time between shots like the real shooters do. That's just me and my impatience I guess. That and I don't think I'll ever be a top shooter so I don't worry about it. :)

After I shoot the 30 fouling rounds I'll shoot a box or a box and a half of a particular ammo (what left from the box I shot the 30 fouling rounds from and another box generally). I'll pay close attention to that and I make sure I take notice when I make the rifle miss rather than then ammo just not flying straight. One of the biggest keys to shooting is recognizing when you make a mistake IMO. If you get an unexplained flyer there's a good chance the shooter is the problem. No one shoots perfectly or even close to it. But I do have a feel for when I pull a shot or just get a nervous twitch and miss. Getting my breathing wrong is something else I try to notice.

After I test one brand or type of ammo I'll generally let my rifle cool a bit and then start over with the same procedure. I don't clean anything until I see problems. With a semi-auto that means feeding problems almost all the time. With really dirty ammo even a bolt action rifle will have feeding issues too.

Once I go through a lot of different types of ammo when I'm doing initial testing for a rifle I'll start shooting more of the type that has done well. I'll shoot a few hundred rounds without switching to another type of ammo. You start to get a good feel for whether you rifle likes the ammo and sometimes you find that the ammo is just plain inconsistent. The biggest factor there is inconsistent loading. If you get up and down strings it's usually because the ammo is not loaded equally. But other things happen too. Some ammo is just never any good IMO. I won't mention any types here but they have been mentioned often. The funny thing is that some people swear by those types of ammo. I think they sell different ammo with the same packaging in different parts of the country to be honest. That's another reason why it's hard to say one type of ammo is better than another. You can get various quality from one areas to another in the same type of ammo.

That's really about it. Mainly it's just about shooting a lot of ammo through a gun before deciding what works and what doesn't. After a while it just becomes obvious what works and what doesn't in a particular rifle. I do like to order ammo by the case when I can especially if I can get a good brand with a good production run.

I don't doubt that keeping the barrel a consistent temperature helps though. I make sure I know what rifles I have that shoot well from a cold bore. Those are the rifles I hunt with. It's one of the things I've always like about Marlin 60's. They shoot well from a cold bore or at least all the ones I've paid attention to do.

I have tried cleaning the bore between different types of ammo but it doesn't seem to help any more than just shooting enough fouling rounds. That's my experience anyway. I have no doubt the top shooters would think I'm crazy for saying that.
 
Potatohead: Rimfire ammo is mass produced and the inconsistancy is often related to that production rate and any inspection/QA/QC that might be done at the factory. Generally as you move up in price, you'll see better consistancy between rounds and hence a gun will tend to group a bit better. With plinking it really doesn't matter much for most, but when you are trying to shoot groups on paper to see what you gun will do, the inconsistancy between rounds can be irritating.

Generally speaking, you will get better consistancy between rounds with standard velocity 22 LR ammo. These might be labeled target but they are not Hi Velocity (HV) and you can generally tell the difference in sound when you shoot them HV vs LV. Generally speaking the hyper velocity rounds will group the poorest on average.

They are primarily made for hunting and grouping 1" at 50 yds with a rifle is generally good enough for the woods.

Doc7: Cleaning and when to clean is sort of something you develop with 22's (aka experience). The bullet lube does form a coating on the inside of the barrel when you shoot it. You will read that people shooting targets may shoot perhaps 10 rounds of a particular ammunition through a clean barrel to "season" it.

A lot of people put down Remington 22 ammo. In the past, there seemed to be a relatively high rate of fail to fires or squibs and so forth. The newer manufactured ammunition is better in my opinion. But you will find so much old stuff around that it is difficult to determine what is new and what is old. So, the negative comments on Remington 22 ammo continue but perhaps to a lesser degree than before. I have found that Remington HV 22 ammo is relatively consistant, but you are not likely to shoot 0.5" groups consistantly with it at 50 yds. My experience (5 shot groups) is that you'll get about a 1/2 inch spread and you'll have a flyer that pushes the group size out to 3/4" or 1".

For reasons that I don't understand, a particular gun tends to favor a particular 22 ammo at the brand and type level in terms of accuracy. Target shooters (competitive) take this to the next level and find a lot that shoots well and buy cases of that lot # to maintain the accuracy they are hoping for. I am not at that level. Never really aspired to be at that level.

If you are looking for a recommendation for lower cost but pretty consistant 22 ammo, give CCI target or standard velocity a try. It is my go to "target ammo" where I am only trying to impress myself for the most part. But it is good to try a lot of different brands and there will be a difference in the POI between brands and especially between target or standard velocity vs high velocity 22 ammo.
 
Figure out what you want to do with the ammunition.

For serious target work (especially at long ranges out doors) and other matters requiring precision, go with Standard Velocity.

For general plinking and hunting, go with High Velocity.

And if you're curious about hypervelocity, try some in your gun. See how it works.

The NORMAL advice is to get a box of each of several makes and shoot them for accuracy and functioning. But right now, getting several boxes from different makers is difficult at best.
 
I attended the NRA National Small Bore Matches this summer.

I'd say without a doubt 90% of the competitors used either Lapua Center X or Eley 10X EPS.

That's what it takes for "serious" target work.
 
Good info fellas, summed up well by Vern as usual.. I'm mainly a plinker, though I hesitate to use that word because in my mind it has negative connotations, like Im not concerned with accuracy. Im interested in getting the tightest groups possible and if theyre not tight, Im kind of infatuated with figuring out why. I've gotten pretty dead on at getting my sr9 to hit where I want it to. Just slow fire of course.

My p238...Notsomuch:)
 
Once upon a time...(and not all that long ago) .22LR ammo was cheap and plentiful. Variety was great.

My personal favorite is (was) Federal 550 pack of 36 grain, at WM for $9.84...wish I had bought a million (or three million) of them.

Those days appear to be gone. These days, anything you can find will have to be good enough...especially if you find it at a reasonable price.

So...grab what is available and try it out. If it works in your .22 of choice, great. If not, grumble a bit and shoot it, clear the malfunctions when they occur, and buy something else when you can find it...and if it works, buy a ton of it.

Unfortunately, almost nothing is available three days later, after you have determined that it works in your firearm.

So, real world is...buy a bunch of whatever comes your way, and hope for the best.
--If it works, next time you see it, buy all you can.
--If it doesn't work, put it up for sale. It will be something that works for someone else, and they will buy it.

That is my take on the way that it is today.

Good luck, and opposing viewpoints are always welcomed.

Best, Rich
 
Sounds about right.

If I end up selling what doesnt work I'll be a flipper by default! I wont have to feel bad about it! And I'll be rich!!! (no pun intended, Rich:))
 
I will go out on a limb and say that a real good place to start with your ammo research is CCI ammo. I find CCI SV shoots well in pretty much every rimfire I own. No other ammo does that including MiniMags. Blazer actually works pretty well too. If I was hunting I'd want a more powerful round. But for general plinking I love CCI SV. I have ammo that is way more accurate in certain guns but it is a lot more expensive and it doesn't work well in all guns. If you can find any (not easy these days) try some CCI SV. I think you'll probably like it. It's a great compromise between performance and accuracy. It's not the best but it's good usually.
 
It's been my experience that .22 ammo isn't as good as it used to be. If you think about it, just before the current unpleasantness and scalpers (who seem to be intercepting supplies before they hit retail shelves) .22 ammo was, in constant dollars, cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

Hitting a low price point comes with a cost, and IMHO that cost was quality.

You really have to try various brands in your own gun, but I think you can probably get some insight into what's good and what isn't by reviewing what S&W recommends - and recommends against - using in their .22 rifles.

Here's a link, scroll down to page 10: http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/S&W_M&P_1522_Rifle_Manual.pdf
 
Thanks Hank. Maybe that means the 22 ammo has taken a bump up in quality..? Though probably not since most of the price increase isnt coming from the manufacturers, but middle men who are hijacking the supply.
 
The only .22lr ammunition I've had reliability problems with lately is the Remington Golden Bullet. Maybe a 5% failure rate on the first firing and only about half of the ones that didn't fire the first time work when turned and struck again.

A shame really, as it is some of the most accurate stuff in my rifles... :(
 
Rem golden bullet in the 50 round boxes, made the last few years are awful in my semi's. The ones I bought bulk years ago and decided to try recently are great. I keep a list of what works in which gun. If it won't cycle a semi it goes into revolvers, pump, levers ets. CCI works in everything I own, yellow jackets are jam-o-matics even in the manual actions. My Ruger 10/22 & MK II have functioned with everything, YJ excluded. Ely primed Aguila is just a name game. It misfires as much as the golden bullets. Juts my experiences.
 
Would that be "Stingers"?

If you're asking about something I mentioned in my post I was not talking about Stingers at any point. You might want to consider quoting what you're asking about. Use the icon at the top of the posting box that looks like a comic bubble (where they have what the comic characters say). I talked about SV and MiniMags and Blazer. All of those are made by CCI. So are Stingers. But Stingers are different than any of the ammo I mentioned.

FWIW I don't find the Stingers to be as accurate as the SV either. But they are plenty accurate for hunting and so are the MiniMags. They have different characteristics and a good hunter will know the differences and know which one will work best for the hunting they will be doing and in the rifle they will be using.
 
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