Onewolf
Member
Clearly the much larger technical issue is that your gun has a FDE stock and a black grip. That has to really hurt the accuracy.
School Me - What is the point of a big 'ol rail?
- Thread starter The_Next_Generation
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Skylerbone
Member
I think the point of having a rail has been covered. We've established that more real estate means more flexibility. Some members have gone so far as to concede the point that not every rifle is equipped for the same purpose.
Let's please keep the OP in mind with posts that aid him in realizing a better option for his purpose rather than allowing the thread to devolve as so many do. Some excellent ideas on modular designs have been presented, perhaps the OP might enlighten us as to his intended accessories. Sling? Bipod? Other?
Let's please keep the OP in mind with posts that aid him in realizing a better option for his purpose rather than allowing the thread to devolve as so many do. Some excellent ideas on modular designs have been presented, perhaps the OP might enlighten us as to his intended accessories. Sling? Bipod? Other?
Arizona_Mike
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It does. I've also had accuracy problems from using white lithium grease on my M1A after Labor Day.Clearly the much larger technical issue is that your gun has a FDE stock and a black grip. That has to really hurt the accuracy.
MtnCreek
Member
I'll second (or 3rd, ...) the Midwest Gen II. It has a solid rail up top; that's the one spot that's less likely to give me problems with cheesegraters. It comes with a few shorter pieces that can be attached if needed for bipod or light.
Great picture! That looks like a beautiful area.
Great picture! That looks like a beautiful area.
I like a lot of these new systems that aren't quad rails but it's a pain needing adaptors and such to attach anything and compatibility isn't always 100%. The adaptors also cost money and a lot of them have multiple bolts in them, etc...just added pieces and more bolts that can loosen, etc. Also it puts accessories outwards a bit because you are adding a rail to a tube and then putting the item on the rail. I still like them though.
Although a quad rail with a handguard on it is similar but a lot bulkier, heavier, etc. I don't like to attach a lot of things to my guns but it's nice to have the option to put a grip or handstop where it feels comfortable....and if that means further away from you...that means you need a longer rail. The long rails are also nice if you want other things further out front like a bipod for shooting off the bench, etc.
My next build is going to be lighter weight and I'm not going with a quad rail. Some guns you want one thing.....for some another. For a KISS build, no need for any kind of quad rail.
Although a quad rail with a handguard on it is similar but a lot bulkier, heavier, etc. I don't like to attach a lot of things to my guns but it's nice to have the option to put a grip or handstop where it feels comfortable....and if that means further away from you...that means you need a longer rail. The long rails are also nice if you want other things further out front like a bipod for shooting off the bench, etc.
My next build is going to be lighter weight and I'm not going with a quad rail. Some guns you want one thing.....for some another. For a KISS build, no need for any kind of quad rail.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I agree. That photo makes me wish I was there.
Regarding the existing rail, I'd order one that offers what you want and sell the existing one once the new one is mounted. I agree a quad rail isn't needed on all ARs.
jason41987
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i didnt notice the post at 29, i must have skimmed over it, so i apologize for my post
Inebriated
Member
Get a modular free-float rail. The ones like Troy or Midwest Industries. Lightweight, can bolt what you need on it, and IMO, feels better.
I love the dd 14" lite rail on my 18" precision AR. I like being able to put a bipod very far forward and also need an IR laser since I shoot with NV regularly. Rail mounted sling attachment on the end of the rail is pretty handy too on a rifle that has a suppressor on the end. It just wouldn't hang right if the sling is too close to the receiver.
And it does look good!
I you decide you don't want it send me a pm
And it does look good!
I you decide you don't want it send me a pm
OP
OP
The_Next_Generation
Member
Thanks for all the support and ideas! I got to check out a Midwest Industries rail today on a buddy's AR and it seemed awesome. I think I'll be unloading the DD and getting the 15" length. Maybe I'll put some thought into fixing the "accuracy" problem by trading in the FDE stock for a black one
Also, this picture was taken at one of my favorite spots in the Cascades in WA...don't even try to get me to tell you where it is!
Taliv-I'll be PMing you shortly!
-TNG
Also, this picture was taken at one of my favorite spots in the Cascades in WA...don't even try to get me to tell you where it is!
Taliv-I'll be PMing you shortly!
-TNG
You're doing good. 9.5 lbs for a precision AR isn't bad. Mine weighs 10.75 lbs with an empty PMag and no sling
View attachment 685456
I would sell the DD. I have no use for that much rail estate and prefer smooth handguards. I'm mechanically inclined enough that if I did need to add some kind of accessory, I'd be able to figure out something that would suit my needs. If you have the funds, get a carbon fiber handguard. It doesn't freeze you when the weather is cold or burn when it's hot or has been laying out in the sun like aluminum will. Take a look at the Lancer. Shooters that have used them hard tell me they are pretty rugged. I want one for my M&P-10
http://store.lancer-systems.com/lightweight-carbon-fiber-handguards/
Beautiful photo. I lived near Everett for awhile and enjoyed my time there
View attachment 685457
jason41987
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i would have to agree with any solution that allows you to add rails in the areas and in whichever size you need as you need them, like some of the options above of the free float tubes that allow rails to be added.. though i dont use rails myself i could mount them to the forearm on my AK too
reason its a good idea is being realistic.. if you have a rifle you tend to use at range, you may want a bipod, but a laser sight, flashlight, and a forward grip would then be pointless... maybe you have a rifle with a shorter barrel for closer range shooting.. well in this case the bipod becomes useless and you may want a forward grip instead and maybe a flash light for home defense (blind the person and identify them before you potentially shoot someone you know in the dark).. so 99% of the time you may need only one small piece of rail here and there.. so one that you can add or remove rails would be better
reason its a good idea is being realistic.. if you have a rifle you tend to use at range, you may want a bipod, but a laser sight, flashlight, and a forward grip would then be pointless... maybe you have a rifle with a shorter barrel for closer range shooting.. well in this case the bipod becomes useless and you may want a forward grip instead and maybe a flash light for home defense (blind the person and identify them before you potentially shoot someone you know in the dark).. so 99% of the time you may need only one small piece of rail here and there.. so one that you can add or remove rails would be better
justice06rr
Member
Rails are nice, but not always necessary. You as the owner are the only one who can decide if you have a need for it or not. "Cheese Graters" as I call them too fill a certain need for those who are in Military/LEO because they have to mount certain accesories likes lights, lasers, optics, etc on them.
If you are not planning to add those things, then a basic free froat rail from MI, Troy, or Noveske should suffice. All you really need is the continuous top rail for your optic and backup sights.
But I'll say, those DD rails are very nice! Sell them if you feel that inclined to get non-railed FF rails. Otherwise, just keep it and don't put any other accesories on the rails like you have now.
As an option, if yo want to keep the DD rails, you can always put rail covers on them so they don't beat up your hands. Good luck with your decision
Edit: I missed the OP's post in #38 about getting rid of the DD and install the MI rails instead. I would back you up on this as I've had the MI Gen SS13 rail. It is very slim and lightweight, without having the rails if you don't need those for your rifle. When I first held my 300BLK AR with it, I coudln't believe how slim and lightweight the MI FF handguard was!
If you are not planning to add those things, then a basic free froat rail from MI, Troy, or Noveske should suffice. All you really need is the continuous top rail for your optic and backup sights.
But I'll say, those DD rails are very nice! Sell them if you feel that inclined to get non-railed FF rails. Otherwise, just keep it and don't put any other accesories on the rails like you have now.
As an option, if yo want to keep the DD rails, you can always put rail covers on them so they don't beat up your hands. Good luck with your decision
Edit: I missed the OP's post in #38 about getting rid of the DD and install the MI rails instead. I would back you up on this as I've had the MI Gen SS13 rail. It is very slim and lightweight, without having the rails if you don't need those for your rifle. When I first held my 300BLK AR with it, I coudln't believe how slim and lightweight the MI FF handguard was!
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OP
OP
The_Next_Generation
Member
Mistwolf- 10.75lbs?! What are the build-specs? I'm running a pretty stout White Oak match bbl with an SWFA 16x42 (21oz for the scope alone) clamped-down with steel rings. Although I suppose if I had the fixed stock like you do that it would be heavier.
Another question for you all: Do the non-adjustable buffer tubes with an A2 stock weigh significantly less than a collapsible model? Not to sound like a weight-weenie, but ounces add up to pounds which makes for a less-than-sleek rifle, and who wants that?
To the person who suggested a carbon tube - Initially it seemed like a good idea as some of those competition-tubes are pretty dang light! But those Lancers you linked weighed 10.2oz with the bbl nut, which is pretty much the same as the aluminum MI handguard but the MI is $110 cheaper. I do like the look of that carbon though...
I'd also like to add that I probably wont be mounting a bipod (yet) as I've found the AFG by magpul to actually function very nicely as a "hook" to help brace/rest the gun on my shooting-rest/backpack/tree-stump. Not to mention it's nice to not have a bipod hanging off the front end when I'm hiking with it. Also, I do like that the MI industries (and any other "modular" rail) has that top rail so I can mount a mini-dot (thats what I call optics like the T1) or irons if I want (oh wait, I need to run offset mounts for all that right?? Haha ).
**EDIT**
I stopped being lazy and looked up some results for the difference in weight between fixed and collapsible..here's what I found from ar15.com:
Originally Posted By LedZeppelin:
Is there a significant weight difference between a standard A1 or A2 stock and a std. 6-pos collapsible stock?
ETA: Buffers, springs, and tubes included.
Yes.
As a 'system' the weights are:
Fixed full lenght stocks
A1 25 oz
A2 24.5 oz
Cav Arms C1 (A1 length) 20 oz
Telestocks
CAR 14.6 oz (Mils sec tube, standard buffer)
M4 Type: 17.0 (Mil spec tube, standard buffer).
M4 Type: 14.3 (Commercial tube, standard buffer)
Fixed short stocks (telestock buffer & spring):
Stubby: 14.6 (with standard buffer)
Sully: 17.75 (with standard buffer)
-------------------------
Just figured I'd share that in case someone scrolling through this thread has the same question in mind..it might save us a resurrection a few years from now!
-TNG
Another question for you all: Do the non-adjustable buffer tubes with an A2 stock weigh significantly less than a collapsible model? Not to sound like a weight-weenie, but ounces add up to pounds which makes for a less-than-sleek rifle, and who wants that?
To the person who suggested a carbon tube - Initially it seemed like a good idea as some of those competition-tubes are pretty dang light! But those Lancers you linked weighed 10.2oz with the bbl nut, which is pretty much the same as the aluminum MI handguard but the MI is $110 cheaper. I do like the look of that carbon though...
I'd also like to add that I probably wont be mounting a bipod (yet) as I've found the AFG by magpul to actually function very nicely as a "hook" to help brace/rest the gun on my shooting-rest/backpack/tree-stump. Not to mention it's nice to not have a bipod hanging off the front end when I'm hiking with it. Also, I do like that the MI industries (and any other "modular" rail) has that top rail so I can mount a mini-dot (thats what I call optics like the T1) or irons if I want (oh wait, I need to run offset mounts for all that right?? Haha
).**EDIT**
I stopped being lazy and looked up some results for the difference in weight between fixed and collapsible..here's what I found from ar15.com:
Originally Posted By LedZeppelin:
Is there a significant weight difference between a standard A1 or A2 stock and a std. 6-pos collapsible stock?
ETA: Buffers, springs, and tubes included.
Yes.
As a 'system' the weights are:
Fixed full lenght stocks
A1 25 oz
A2 24.5 oz
Cav Arms C1 (A1 length) 20 oz
Telestocks
CAR 14.6 oz (Mils sec tube, standard buffer)
M4 Type: 17.0 (Mil spec tube, standard buffer).
M4 Type: 14.3 (Commercial tube, standard buffer)
Fixed short stocks (telestock buffer & spring):
Stubby: 14.6 (with standard buffer)
Sully: 17.75 (with standard buffer)
-------------------------
Just figured I'd share that in case someone scrolling through this thread has the same question in mind..it might save us a resurrection a few years from now!
-TNG
That UBR stock and the PRI forearm are pretty heavy (the forearm is almost a pound with the barrel nut). Looks like a fairly heavy profile barrel too. That will do it.
The one I just finished is around 8.5lbs without the scope or scope mount. If I ran a UBR on it, had a larger scope like his I would break 10lbs I'd bet.
Yes, the UBR stock is heavy but it gives me the best cheekweld of all the adjustable stocks I've tried and it's the most rugged (Not a fixed stock, Next_Gen). The barrel is a 20" Lothar-Walther HBar profile- heavier than a government profile but much lighter than a bull barrel. The PRI is advertised as 15 oz with barrel nut but that weight includes the rail sections it came with. It's lighter without the rail sections & brackets but I don't know by how much. The scope is a Leupold Mk IV 10x I borrowed off another rifle and it looks long because I'm using a 3" sunshade. When I can afford it, I'll replace it with a variable, either another Leupold or a Nightforce.
I use a carbon fiber tube because metal handguards will freeze your skin when it's cold and burn when it's hot. I chose the PRI Delta because the shape is more comfortable in my hands and the flat bottom is good when placed on a rest. I suggested the Lancer because it's octagonal shape is more comfortable in my hands than a round handguard, is fairly light and a shooter that uses them tells me the Lancer will stand up to hard use
I use a carbon fiber tube because metal handguards will freeze your skin when it's cold and burn when it's hot. I chose the PRI Delta because the shape is more comfortable in my hands and the flat bottom is good when placed on a rest. I suggested the Lancer because it's octagonal shape is more comfortable in my hands than a round handguard, is fairly light and a shooter that uses them tells me the Lancer will stand up to hard use
The quad rail the military standardized was to offer a large pool of shooters versatility in attaching all the various SOPMOD accessories that the particular user might need for that mission.
48" of rail and the additional weight was a compromise to cut down on issuing a large number of different handguards. Obviously, very few use much of it. Dead weight is the soldiers #1 enemy, they already carry more than they want.
What happened next - about 8 years ago - was that the public wanted it all, because it was issue, and the AR15 had become a new focus in guns.
Fast forward to today, they aren't selling nearly as much. I'm planning to convert to a Gator Grip no rail handguard, from an issue A2. The advantage is that you get a free float, but that's it. The sights have to remain mounted on the barrel for the concept to work - it isolates the barrel from sling tension, hand pressure, or how it sits on a rest.
Putting sights on the rail of a free float means you don't get your money's worth - it moves with the pressures on it. Likely, less than the thinner barrel, but nonetheless, a float sight isn't isolated.
The issue I have with most of these is cost - you can get uppers or lowers for less than $75 each, but a free float is $200? It's a simple tube, not all are CNC machined, many designs are extruded, like storm door framing. The machine pumps out sticks of tubing ten feet long at a time, cut to length and ship. Add barrel nut as needed.
It's like telling me a single lens reflex red dot sight costs the same as a smaller pair of Steiner, Leupold, or Nikon binoculars. Half the optics with no magnification is the same money?
While a free float - railed or not - can help improve a shooter's accuracy, it won't improve the final baseline ability that the barrel can do, held in a machine rest. At best, it gets things along another MOA. The barrel doesn't get any better - it's the overall assembly and the improved lack of variation that the barrel is no longer subject to.
Other than that - a lot of it is Brand wars by fan boys. All too many now associate their persona by what products they buy, not by what character traits and values they hold.
48" of rail and the additional weight was a compromise to cut down on issuing a large number of different handguards. Obviously, very few use much of it. Dead weight is the soldiers #1 enemy, they already carry more than they want.
What happened next - about 8 years ago - was that the public wanted it all, because it was issue, and the AR15 had become a new focus in guns.
Fast forward to today, they aren't selling nearly as much. I'm planning to convert to a Gator Grip no rail handguard, from an issue A2. The advantage is that you get a free float, but that's it. The sights have to remain mounted on the barrel for the concept to work - it isolates the barrel from sling tension, hand pressure, or how it sits on a rest.
Putting sights on the rail of a free float means you don't get your money's worth - it moves with the pressures on it. Likely, less than the thinner barrel, but nonetheless, a float sight isn't isolated.
The issue I have with most of these is cost - you can get uppers or lowers for less than $75 each, but a free float is $200? It's a simple tube, not all are CNC machined, many designs are extruded, like storm door framing. The machine pumps out sticks of tubing ten feet long at a time, cut to length and ship. Add barrel nut as needed.
It's like telling me a single lens reflex red dot sight costs the same as a smaller pair of Steiner, Leupold, or Nikon binoculars. Half the optics with no magnification is the same money?
While a free float - railed or not - can help improve a shooter's accuracy, it won't improve the final baseline ability that the barrel can do, held in a machine rest. At best, it gets things along another MOA. The barrel doesn't get any better - it's the overall assembly and the improved lack of variation that the barrel is no longer subject to.
Other than that - a lot of it is Brand wars by fan boys. All too many now associate their persona by what products they buy, not by what character traits and values they hold.
Averageman
Member
I like free float modular rails.
These guys make one, http://www.gggaz.com/ar-15-free-float-tactical-forearm.html
It lets you put the rail sections where you need them and skip the rest.
This is what I have on my DD M4-V7 and I'm happy with it.
These guys make one, http://www.gggaz.com/ar-15-free-float-tactical-forearm.html
It lets you put the rail sections where you need them and skip the rest.
This is what I have on my DD M4-V7 and I'm happy with it.
I picked up a Ruger SR762 back in November, and the rifle came with a few sections of rail that one can add if/when they wish, as well as where they want on the rifle itself.
Your not stuck with rails that you have no use for, but if your tastes change at a later date, you can simply add a section wherever you want on the HG.
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr762/index.html
I'm not a huge AR/rail person myself, but I would bet that other companies sell such a beast for virtually any AR15/10...... if you want to add this to your existing rifle.
Your not stuck with rails that you have no use for, but if your tastes change at a later date, you can simply add a section wherever you want on the HG.
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr762/index.html
I'm not a huge AR/rail person myself, but I would bet that other companies sell such a beast for virtually any AR15/10...... if you want to add this to your existing rifle.
conrad427
Member
I always wanted one of the carbon fiber fore ends for my custom ar. But my gunsmith put an aluminum tube on it instead, its okay but I don't like the metal clang when it touches something. I have found that I like a smooth fore end and a gas block with a rail on the top and bottom.
BTW, it looks like you have a wonderful place to shoot.
BTW, it looks like you have a wonderful place to shoot.
wally
Member
What is the ID of the MI or Troy slim tubes? I'm building up a 9mm SBR and want the handguard to extend to almost the end of the suppressor Need at least 1.35" ID, but a bit more would probably be better.
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