Scope My Bushy...

[Edward429451]

Whooppee Business is good, I get about 300 bucks in disposable income and I figure to buy a scope for my 20" A3 Bushy. It'll let me better test my loads for it mostly but I intend on still continuing to use the iron sights alot also.

I know some of you guys have been into AR's for a long time and have probably used both style mounts, on the flattop and on the handle. Which is the better way to go? I'm leaning towards something like a Burris Fullfield II so I guess my real question is about the mount. Which way is better?

 

[Onslaught]

I got slapped for saying something similar once...

For a scoped AR, it's NO CONTEST... Flat-top. Unless you're using one of the scopes specifically designed for the handle, or you don't mind sticking your neck up that high to use your scope, get a flat-top, an Armalite 1 piece scope mount from www.quantico-arms.com for $75, and the Burris Fullfield II with Ballistic Plex (or illuminated BP if you like) and I'd say you have a GREAT rig out to 500 yards at least.

I'm saving up for that exact setup myself

 

[labgrade]

I've a Colt HBAR flattop with the B-Square mount using a Simmons 1.5-6X42 scope.

Couldn't be more tickled. VERY fast target acquisition at the 1.5 setting & 6X is plenty enough for anything I really use this rifle for.

May want to slap on a higher mag scope for load development - I did, & then switch nack to something more practical.

BTW, Ed, besides come shooting it sometime, I still have a hundred .308 cal 178 gr gas-checked casts bullets still stashed away for your personal perusal. Been at least a year. You ever gonna come & get 'em?

 

[Gewehr98]

Interesting Subject Line!

Dunno how I'd respond if I was asked that in person by somebody of the female persuasion.


This is an ARMS #5 mount, Millett steel rings, and Leupold 3.5-10x VariX-III Law Enforcement model on my preban Colt Competition HBAR:

 

[Kodiak AK]

Does any one actualy use those Delta cheek peices?

 

[Edward429451]

LMAO I din even think how that sounded. You poor sick puppies.

I couldn't make that quantico link work or turn it up in a search. I see the tide immediately started leaning towards the one piece flat top mounts though. Does any particular make stand above the rest? I only want to have to buy it once. That ARMS mount looks solid. Does it repeat zero good?

Labgrade...A year's past procrastination. What can I say? My dog ate my homework? My wife's been up there twice in the last 6 months but it seems like I always have to work when she goes. One of the joys of being a one man shop. Another lesser used joy is being able to pull the plug on it for one day though so maybe I'll just do that in the next couple three weeks and come see you. Presumably on a weekend, I'll get with you via PM and sort it out, OK? preciate ya hangin on to them 178's for me!

That B Square is one piece, right? How much was it?
How much was the ARMS too?

 

[Zak Smith]

Think about eye relief.

Eye relief for a scope is the best distance between the scope's ocular (rear) lens and your eyeball. Go closer or further away and you get that "black field" blocking out your view.

If you shoot nose-to-charging handle, your eye is approximately 1.5" behind the rear of the upper receiver. So if you had a scope with 1.5" eye relief (like a TA01 or TA31 ACOG), it would be mounted properly with its rear lens even with the rear of the upper.

However, most conventional rifle scopes have 3.5 - 4.5 of eye relief. This means if you mount it like Gewehr98, your head will be awkwardly far to the rear on the stock. The alternative is to mount the scope so the ocular lens is about 2" - 3" forward of the rear end of the upper receiver -- about even with the shell deflector.

The scope pictured here isn't quite forward enough, but I'm limited by the position of the scope rings with a monolithic rail (RAS or LMT MRP) or an extended ARMS rail.

My favorite AR optic is the TA11 ACOG...


-z

 

[E=MC^2]

Does any one actualy use those Delta cheek peices?

I did for a while. It kinda reminded me of the '80's style, Miami Vice type setups that were cammon years ago. I eventually went to a flattop rig and purchased my rings from Les Bear.

It seem the price has doubled since I purchased mine a couple years ago($165 now), but there are alot of heavy duty sets available with the same design concept.

 

[dbshabo]

I'll second the Armalite one piece mount. I got mine from Quantico as well. It comes in either 1" or 30mm. I have a Bushy 20" A3 also. I bought a Weaver Grand Slam 3x10 40mm to put on it. I'm very pleased with the combination. The Armalite mount is very stout and well made. The lock down knobs are large and knurled for easy use. I take the mount and scope off my rifle to transport to and from the range and the return to zero is dead nuts on every time. If your rifle has the chrome lined NATO chamber on it you aren't gonna get match grade accuracy with it no matter what ammo, scope, or mount/rings you use with it. No need for the expensive mounts/rings or scope in my opinion. Although I know 'wants' are much different than 'needs' to most folks.

Shabo

 

[Onslaught]

Oops, bad link... No dash... Here they are:
Quantico Arms

Notice how the front ring extends out over the handguards, giving you that extra eye relief Zak mentioned. Another great thing about them, they put your scope at the same height as AR irons, so your cheek weld doesn't change. I don't think you'll regret the purchase, but if you do, you could get 90% of your money back selling it on the EE. Heck, buy it, give it a try, and if you don't like it, I'll buy it from you for full price! (as long as it's the 1" ring model )

Over on AR15.com, you really only see 3 types of mounts/rings used by the "serious" guys... ARMS #22 QD rings, Badger Ord. "heavy duty" style rings, or Armalite One piece. It has been said (although I don't have any direct experience) that the only rings that TRUELY repeat zero are the ARMS throw lever rings.

It's just my personal thing, but I prefer as few moving/tightening parts as possible where scopes are concerned. Of course, with the ARMS #5, the ARMS "STANAG" rings that go with it would alleviate some of that. If you do decide to go that route, try to buy used, or go with the $30 Rock River Arms version. RRA also has a version of the 1 piece scope mount, which is an exact copy of the "Old" Armalite 1 piece, for around $45. It doesn't extend as far out with the front ring, and is only available in 1".

 

[DMK]

I just bought one of those Armalite one piece mounts for my flattop AR. It's nice! I'm very impressed with the quality and ease of use. It's just the right height too. I've mount mine all the way up front on the rail, so the eye relief is right on with the same cheek weld as the detach carry handle sights.

 

[labgrade]

The B-Square is a one-piece. Only thing I don't like about it is it's gloss black & doesn't fit in well with the rest of the matte finishes. Cost was about $60, IIRC. Straight Weaver-type mount onto the HBAR's flattop. Largish knurled screws that'll also take a quarter to tighten 'em up - slots.

& Zak's right on about eye relief, etc.

You should be able to shoulder the rifle & have an immediate perfect view through the scope, which means eye relief and cheek weld both.

I used a Colt bolt-on scope quite a while back on a standard carry handle A1 M16& it was a real pain to get on target quickly - scope way too high for usual use.

 

[Northwest Cajun]

I have the armalite 1 piece with a fixed 10x mil dot bushnell. It was on my M1A but when it went in for a bed job I put it on my bushmaster. I liked it so much I'll most likely buy another for the M1A

 

[Northwest Cajun]

Here is another pic

 

[Edward429451]

Gloss black...Yeah I want the matte finish if possible. I looked at the Fullfield II's yesterday and they had the glossy ones for 249. Going to hold out for the matte.

I read about the tip o the nose to charging handle thing and actually tried this last week at the range. Seemed ok but I don't know if it helped me or not as I was using the 55g'ers which don't group so well. I'll be able to tell more when I get it it scoped. I picked up some 62g'ers yesterday also so will be able to try them too. DeputyVaughn was sayin they work good out of his Bushy and they are cheaper than the 69g SMK's so I'm going to give them a whirl.

Both those scopes pictured seem to be pretty far rearward. Looks like they'd prohibit a tip o nose mount. Your setup works good for you guys?

Has anyone managed to mount a scope forward enough to allow this tip o nose technique to work?

 

[El Rojo]

I wish I had spent a few extra bucks and got one of those one piece mounts. I am using Millet Extra-High AR-15 rings. Again, the scope could afford to go a little further forward.

 

[Edward429451]

Nice setup there El Rojo. Those rings look pretty uh, tippable I guess you could say. Had any problems with it?

What's hanging below the forward assist?

 

[El Rojo]

If you look closely, you will notice that is a genuine PRK legal FAB-10 Nuetered AR-15. That ring is attached to the rear take down pin and in reality is really my "mag release". You pull the pin and the upper rotates so you can access the internal 10 round magazine.

I have had no problems with it. The sad thing is the Millet rings just couldn't find the exact right fit. I tried the high rings and they were too low, I had to paste my face to the stock to be able to see through the scope. Those rings are just a tad bid too high, but they work. Like I said, I would go with one of the one piece bases with the extended front ring so you can get proper cheek weld and eye relief.

 

[Mr. Chitlin]

I use a Rock River one piece mount on my Bushy Varminter. It is a CNC machined aluminum mount and rock solid. Seems like it ran about $40. The scope is a Simmons AETEC 3.8x12x44AO. It runs ~$135 locally. That puts you under your budget with some left over for more toys.

Here is the mount on the rifle...


Here is the mount...

I also have the B Square mount on one of my Colt's. It is also a nice mount, but is made of blued steel. The pic isn't the best in the world, the color difference isn't as bad as it looks in the pic...

 

[Kodiak AK]

So what is a good Scope mount for on the carry handle?

 

[El Rojo]

I am interested in that as well Kodiak. I am going to go start another thread with just that question right now.

And here it is, What kind of AR carry handle optics mount do you use and why?

 

[Gewehr98]

Ok, some clarification may be in order here.

The ARMS #5 w/Leupold as seen on my Colt has been just fine returning to zero, when it's swapped with the carry handle sights for iron sight use and back.

Now, somebody's going to have to explain to me that my setup is "awkward", due to the 3.5" of eye-relief. I shoot nose-to-charging handle with my issued M16A2's when Uncle Sam grades me on my shooting performance, and on my own time when this Colt is configured with it's carry handle sights. When it carries glass, I move my head back along that straight stock comb, the gun isn't shooting over barricade or from behind cover in that configuration. My cheek weld with that eye relief location feels just fine. You don't suppose my neck's too short, do ya? I don't wind up with nerve damage, nor do I feel fatigued, nauseated, achy, moody, crampy, bloated, agoraphobic, anxious, manic, depressed, unloved, homicidal, crapped-upon, squirrely, bulemic, schizophrenic, suicidal, envious, apprehensive, claustrophobic, or suffer penis envy. So what am I doing wrong by mounting the scope where I like it, hmmm? Missing some sort of tactical advantage? Not serious enough per the rules at www.AR15.com and their professionals? Darned blue helmets marching up my street and all. I suppose I could put more black bits on, or add battery-powered devices that emit and suck in other portions of the electromagnetic spectrum as penance. Of course, the prairie dogs would probably hold in my sights a little bit longer as they laughed and pointed, could be a good thing.

This is funny:

If your rifle has the chrome lined NATO chamber on it you aren't gonna get match grade accuracy with it no matter what ammo, scope, or mount/rings you use with it. No need for the expensive mounts/rings or scope in my opinion. Although I know 'wants' are much different than 'needs' to most folks.

Well, let's see. I get to dig out my sub-MOA 100 and 200 yard targets, as fired with my Sierra MatchKing handloads and that old Colt Competition HBAR, icky-pooey chrome-lined barrel innards and all, then get rid of the targets, scope, rings, and mount. Why? Because that particular combination, per somebody's gospel, just ain't supposed to happen. It ain't right, it ain't natural, an abomination in the eyes of the Almighty. Cheese & rice, people, maybe we should give up actually shooting guns and trying different things, it's a hell of a lot easier to just propogate myths and disinformation. Based on that argument, I'll wager HK's and Desert Eagles don't shoot worth sour spotted owl ****, either.

 

[Zak Smith]

Now, somebody's going to have to explain to me that my setup is "awkward", due to the 3.5" of eye-relief. I shoot nose-to-charging handle with my issued M16A2's when Uncle Sam grades me on my shooting performance, and on my own time when this Colt is configured with it's carry handle sights. When it carries glass, I move my head back along that straight stock comb, the gun isn't shooting over barricade or from behind cover in that configuration. My cheek weld with that eye relief location feels just fine. You don't suppose my neck's too short, do ya? I don't wind up with nerve damage, nor do I feel fatigued, nauseated, achy, moody, crampy, bloated, agoraphobic, anxious, manic, depressed, unloved, homicidal, crapped-upon, squirrely, bulemic, schizophrenic, suicidal, envious, apprehensive, claustrophobic, or suffer penis envy. So what am I doing wrong by mounting the scope where I like it, hmmm? Missing some sort of tactical advantage? Not serious enough per the rules at www.AR15.com and their professionals? Darned blue helmets marching up my street and all. I suppose I could put more black bits on, or add battery-powered devices that emit and suck in other portions of the electromagnetic spectrum as penance.

Dude. Chill.

If you want to shoot nose-to-charging handle with a scope with 3.5"-4.5" of eye relief, then you'll have to move the scope's ocular lens about a third of the way down the rail. That is all.

Moving one's head 3-4" rear on the stock is sure possible, and it's least annoying when shooting from the bench or prone. However, in just about any other position, it's going to feel wrong since your head will be basically leaning straight to the right (for a right-handed person) instead of forward and down like you get in the normal NtCH position. Keeping a consistent cheekweld between different sighting devices is going to help accuracy in that you'll seek to the same stance each time.

-z

 

[AK103K]

Keeping a consistent cheekweld between different sighting devices is going to help accuracy in that you'll seek to the same stance each time.

I agree. Its much easier and more natural if your head is always in the same position, or very close to it each time you shoulder the weapon. For an AR with a scope, I really like the flat top with a Leupold 1.5x5 mounted on it as close to where the irons would be. At 1.5x you can still snap shoot and use the rifle like you would with irons. Its almost like a scout type scope in speed. At 5x, you can easily see at farther distances for more diliberate shooting.

 

[Zak Smith]

AK103K,

I love that paint-job on the Leupold. How'd you do it?

-z