Scopes vs. Elec. Sights vs. Irons on MBRs

[Kind of Blued]

I'm hoping to save enough pennies by the end of the year to have a FAL, an M1A, and a Garand but I'm interested to see how you guys feel about sighting options on MBRs.

The Garand is staying stock, obviously, so that leaves me with the M1A and the FAL.

I'm imagining a scope on the M1A and a dot sight on the FAL, as that seems to exemplify their respective strengths. Anyway, I'd enjoy some discussion on the topic in regard to the utility of the rifle and the corresponding optic. Do you add an optic if you don't like the irons? Do you just slap something on because you have it lying around?

As always, PHOTOS if ya got 'em!

 

[General Geoff]

the irons, at least on the M1A, are fantastic. They're excellent for acquiring targets relatively quickly out to two or three hundred yards. If you're looking for effective fire past that range, then you'll want to look into a good set of glass.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Yeah, I really love the irons on the M1A, but hopefully having a Garand as well, they're about the same.

Maybe I'll just leave the glass to the bolt guns...

 

[nalioth]

You can't just throw anything on the FAL.

Find a SUIT scope for it (sorry, the SUIT has no electronics).

 

[gunnie]

with the dust cover replacement rails offered by DSA, Tapco, ARMS, [etc], you can put most any optic on an FAL.

gunnie

 

[briansmithwins]

What are you going to be doing with the rifle?

Sunny, well lit range with high contrast targets? 3-gun? Invading brain-hungry zombies?

Irons are good for learning the basics and as a bomb-proof back up. On a cost basis they are the best.

Red dot sights are great from contact to ~300 yards. The problem with red dots is they don't help you acquire targets and if you can't see it you can't hit it. For close range targets they are the best.

Low power (4-6x) scopes like the Trilux or Acog help you ID the target. For point targets at range they are the best.

The only scope that I'm aware of that covers the effective range of a modern rifle is a ELCAN SpectreDR, which is switchable from 1x to 4x. http://optics.org/cws/product/P000002513

BSW

 

[steveracer]

I spent more money on putting good irons on my AK than I did on glass for same. Then removed the glass, and sold it.
I have hit man-targets in the USMC qual with M-16A2 out to 500, so it really isn't that hard, as I suck with a rifle.
Sooooo, get you some good irons, and PRACTICE a lot, and you will be golden.

 

[gunnie]

BSW,

sweet optic...but @ 1,800+ american inflationary notes, WAY outta my price range.

steveracer,

wonder how old MDeViney is??
print a copy of posting #7. save it untill you are 50+ years old. unless you are the exception, short of being painted surveyor's orange, you will not see a man sized target AND the sights simultaneously @500yds.

gunnie

 

[Mannlicher]

I have tried optics on my M1A, both scopes and dots. I keep going back to the iron sights.
I do use an EOTech on my SOCOM though. With the short barrel, it is an exellent choice for CQB, and with the EOTech, it makes a great hog hunting rifle.

 

[Avenger29]

Well, as far as reddots go...the Aimpoint series rules in battery life. You are talking about 40,000 hours on some models to 80,000 hours on some others, so you can turn it on and leave it on. The Aimpoint series is very durable. Around $400-$500.

Trijicon makes the ACOG series...lower powered scopes that are very tough, with tritium and fiberoptic elements to illuminate the reticle. They are very expensive, though. Trijicon also makes the Tripower, which is a reflex type sight (IIRC) that has battery, tritium, and fiberoptic illumination, with a chevron reticle.

Eotech makes a holosight...it's fast, but battery life is quite short. They are very fast, though. And cool. The Eotechs are about the same or a bit less than an aimpoint.

Can't spend that kind of money? Look into Russian optics. like the Kobra red dot. It will get the job done, for less $$$$.

I assume that if you had your way, you'd probably put an something like an ACOG on one of the .308s and an Aimpoint on the other. Optics are the way to roll on a modern rifle, with backup irons just in case. Optics will help with speed and precision, so use them, but spend money to get good quality.

 

[Eric F]

the m1a is great but optic options are tough. Nomater what I have seen you have to hold your head high to sue the optics. My conclusion is iron sights all the way unless you can rig a scout rail then a red dot is the deal.
Fal wow have I been down this road. Get the para trooper iron sight foa a backup to a good old red dot. I have owned 2 fal's 1 was the famed dsa and guess what battle rifles as a hold are only good for 2-5 moa so a super great peice of glass is way over kill. A cheap 2-5 power is all you will be able to effectivly use IMO.
and for the garand again its iron sights all the way.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Thanks for the responses guys.

In response to gunnie, I'm 22, so my peepers aren't junk yet. I do wear glasses, but I'm looking forward to figuring out what I can do with iron sights at length this summer. I've signed up for a couple classes, one on shooting 300 yds. off-hand and one on shooting 600 yards prone.

briansmithwins: You brought up a point which I hadn't thought about, that at long ranges, a red dot may indeed cover your entire target, and "shoot once you know its still there but can't see it anymore because the dot is covering it" sounds like horrible advice.

Anyway, thanks again. This optic issue will be a long way down the road, but I had it on my mind. I've guns to buy first!

 

[nathan]

Garands and M1 As should be iron sighted. Remove the scope, its cumbersome and waste of money.

Scopes are for bolt actions.

 

[DMK]

at long ranges, a red dot may indeed cover your entire target, and "shoot once you know its still there but can't see it anymore because the dot is covering it" sounds like horrible advice.

Sight in your red dot using the top edge of the dot (like you would use the top edge of your front sight).

Garands and M1 As should be iron sighted. Remove the scope, its cumbersome and waste of money.

Scopes are for bolt actions.

The choice of optics and sighting systems has little to do with the caliber or the type of weapon. Your choice of sighting system depends on how you plan to use the weapon.

For longer ranges magnified optics are preferable. For closer range, fast "pop up" shots red dots or magnified "Scout Mounted" scopes are preferable. Both beat iron sights in every way, except that irons don't require batteries and that most military style rifle iron sights are extremely rugged.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I'm hoping to save enough pennies by the end of the year to have a FAL, an M1A, and a Garand but I'm interested to see how you guys feel about sighting options on MBRs.

It depends on what you're looking for the rifle in question to really do.

For a range gun, irons or whatever else are fine.

If you're talking about a real fighting rifle, then I'd simply point out that something like an ACOG or AimPoint/EOTech will dramatically improve your rifle's performance, including its speed on target. If you can afford a means to help you get the first round downrange at a bad guy, and get more (accurate) rounds headed towards him than he's got headed back at you . . . well, it's your life, but I'd value mine enough to spend the $$$ to get the edge.

Iron sights simply cannot match the performance of more modern sights. They're a good back up, obviously, but if you're wanting to set your rifle up as an actual combat long gun you'd be well served by getting something more capable as your primary sights.

 

[trbon8r]

I've tried a couple different setups on one of my M14s. I tried the forward mounted Aimpoint on a Knight's forward rail system. I couldn't wait to ditch that combination. The red dot sight really limits the M14's long range effectiveness. Even with the 2 MOA dot I found that the dot covered too much of the target and was too sloppy in terms of accuracy even for relatively close 200 yard work. I could shoot better with the iron sights.

I switched to a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5X MRT scope on an older style split rail ARMS mount. So far this seems to be the best compromise. It is relatively fast at close range, but offers a lot more potential at longer ranges. You are giving up a little bit of speed at close range with the scope set on 1.5X versus a red dot sight or irons, but not that much. The ARMS mount also mounts about as low as anything you will find. The Schmidt and Bender Short Dot would probably be an even better scope than the Leupold since the dot on the Schmidt and Bender will work even during bright day light conditions, but like most folks I can't see blowing over 2 grand for a scope when there are quality alternatives for close to 1/3 the price.

An ACOG would be my preferred optic for most other types of rifles, but unfortunately in my opinion ACOGs and M14s don't mix that well. The ACOG mounts either make the optic sit ridiculously high, require eliminating the rear sights, or both. Eye relief can be a problem because it can be difficult to get the ACOG far enough to the rear on your mount for proper eye relief (thus the reason some mounts require you to ditch the rear sights.) I keep wishing Trijicon would come out with an ACOG specifically made for the M14, with a bit more eye relief in a package that would allow for lower mounting. If the optic were variable power, that would be even better.

 

[Bwana John]

Garands and M1 As should be iron sighted. Remove the scope, its cumbersome and waste of money.
Scopes are for bolt actions.

I agree, save your money for ammo.

 

[cluttonfred]

It seems clear that people who do a lot more actual shooting at actual bad guys than most of us have been moving to optics for a couple of decades now, but good iron sights (and not all are good) are still the cheapest and most reliable way to go. I'd get a lot of practice with the iron sights to find out their and your strengths and weakness in the kind of shooting you want to do and then, if necessary, get the optic to suit.

 

[H2O MAN]

I run EOTechs on my MK14 SEI rifles. The Mod 0 has a .308 BDC reticle and the Mod 1 has the standard 1 MOA dot inside the 65 MOA circle of death.
I am interested in an Aimpoint Micro T-1 for my M14s when they make it available with a 2 MOA dot.
I tried the ACOG, but did not like the tiny reticle, short eye relief and it was like looking through a straw.
I'm sure the ACOG is great for ARs, but it's not well suited to MBRs.

BTW, UltiMAK makes a real nice Scout rail for the Garand and I've seen them set up with Aimpoints.

 

[USSR]

DSA Stg-58
DSA Extreme Duty Scope Mount
Sightron S1 3-9X40 Mildot Scope

Don

 

[GunTech]

the m1a is great but optic options are tough. Nomater what I have seen you have to hold your head high to use the optics. My conclusion is iron sights all the way unless you can rig a scout rail then a red dot is the deal.

Bingo. With an Ultimak scout rail on my M1A not only is the sight low, it's low enough that I can still use the irons with the scope mounted. The same is true with either Aimpoint of FastFire.

I'm middle-aged with poor vision, so optical sights that put everything on the same focal plane are almost a requirement.