Scoping an AR with a carry handle

[brewer12345]

I like iron sights even though my accuracy is inherently limited with them. In the case of my AR I would like to have my cake and eat it too, so if I can scope the thing as well as keep the carry handle irons I would love to do that. The carry handle is a removable one with thumbscrews, so if I really had to or my vision degraded enough to make irons worthless, I could always remove it and just go with a scope only.

So a few questions:

- Is it practical to put a scope on the handle? I assume there are trade-offs. What are they?

- Am I better off buying one of the scopes that bolts directly to the handle or should I buy a regular scope and a base that fits the handle? I would think the latter would be the better choice.

- Can anyone recommend a 3X9 scope in the $100 range that would be acceptable? I understand that I would not be getting Leupold performance at that price, which is why I use the term "acceptable."

 

[1911 guy]

Mounting to a carry handle puts the scope so high over bore line that sighting in can be a real pain and then the MPBR (max. point blank range) goes all stupid. You're far better off mounting directly to the receiver.

MPBR is important for utility because sighting in a given distance with an extreme height over bore makes your point of impact vary wildly, not just an inch or two, as distance changes.

My lates experience with lower end scopes was a Bushnell Banner. I got it from Midway for a bit over a hundred and am content with it. It's no Leupold or Zeiss, but I didn't spend a small fortune on it, either.

 

[Theohazard]

Never mount a scope to the carry handle, it will be way too high. You'd need a huge cheek pad to get you anywhere near a decent cheek weld, and at that point you wouldn't be able to see the sights anyway.

In my opinion, removable carry handles are absolutely useless; the first thing you should do when buying a rifle with one is get rid of it. If you're looking for a good rear sight, companies like LMT and Daniel Defense make rear sights that are like the ones on the carry handle but without the useless bulk of the handle. But since you're supposed to mount your iron sights and your scope on the same level, these types of fixed sights would block your scope. So I'd recommend Troy flip-up sights; they'll give you the same sight picture as the carry handle sights, but you can flip them down out of the way for use with the scope. Just keep in mind that you'll have to remove your scope to use them.

 

[1911 guy]

To expand on what TheoHazard said, the ideal setup might look something like this: fold down sights out of the way with a scope mounted on a QD mount. If the scope were to fail, it can be easily and quickly removed and the sights flipped up for use.

Even if you opted to keep the carry handle, a QD mounted scope will solve a couple of your issue. Good ones aren't cheap, though.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Please post a pic of your gun brewer and so we can better evaluate

 

[brewer12345]

You mean the one that was lost in that tragic canoeing accident?

Sounds like the carry handle is out if I want to scope it.

 

[Acera]

brewer12345,

Most of the younger crowd does not realize that mounting a scope to the carry handle used to be the only practical way to mount a scope on an AR rifle. Those of us in the game during those early years had to make do with what was out there and we survived and even managed to hit a few targets on occasion.

The picture below shows a Colt branded scope specifically made to be mounted on the carry handle. This scope even has a BDC, so you dial in the distance and it adjusts for the drop. They have made various sorts of cheek rests and pads to assist the shooter in getting the correct height to use the optic properly. The one I have just happens to be a Colt factory product. I also have a cheap plastic one that attaches to the top butt-plate screw on another rifle that raises the position of your cheek. Velcro and lace on cheek pads are fairly inexpensive also and will serve the same purpose. That is if you feel you need it, many shooters don't use them, and they still are able to hit their targets. I have seen knockoffs of this type of scope in your price range, can't attest to quality or performance.

Second, they have made a mount that screws into the channel at the top of the handle and has a Picatinny mounting rail machined into the top. That way you can mount just about any optic out there. I have one of those, they are very inexpensive and it has a slot running the length of it so in an emergency you can still see the iron sights on the rifle. That mounting system was probably the most popular at the time. Colt even sold a heavy barreled Delta with that set up.

A third type was an extended mount that screwed into the top of the carry handle and extended out in front of the handle and dropped down a bit. This was a popular mount back in the day for those using the new C-More reflex sights. This got the optic into normal eye level. Some of the action guys liked them.

Don't let the detractors get you down, mount whatever scope you can afford up there and shoot the heck out it, you will be fine.




eddied to add: The following link should give you plenty of ideas and resources.
https://www.google.com/search?q=car...wv3MAhWLJCYKHSSzBo8Q_AUICCgC&biw=1920&bih=969

 

[Space Ghost]

^^^ The above is true, but we had to do it that way back then, or not do it at all. Look at the cheek raiser on the stock of that rifle. Without it, it is very difficult to shoot a handle mounted scope. And now, should the scope fail, you can't get your face down low enough to use the irons... I still love an old school build, but if optics are anywhere in the plans, go with a low mounted scope and folding BUIS.

 

[Theohazard]

Most of the younger crowd does not realize that mounting a scope to the carry handle used to be the only practical way to mount a scope on an AR rifle. Those of us in the game during those early years had to make do with what was out there and we survived and even managed to hit a few targets on occasion.
[...]
Don't let the detractors get you down, mount whatever scope you can afford up there and shoot the heck out it, you will be fine.

Yes, but that was before carry handles were removable. Back then, you had no choice because the carry handle was fixed; you just had to deal with the hight-over-bore issues messing with your max point blank range and you had to add a cheek riser to get good cheek weld.

But with a removable carry handle it makes absolutely no sense to mount a scope on top of it. It's worse in every way than mounting directly to the flat-top receiver: It has a bunch of disadvantages and not one single advantage.

 

[Acera]

I have issue with what both of you above have to say.

1st, Yes, I can get down and see the irons with that cheek riser in place. Also a lot people don't use a riser and can get a good cheek weld and shoot their guns accurately. I've done it and seen it done a lot. That exact scope was actually once mounted on a M-16 that did not have a cheek riser and I qualified expert at Ft. Benning with it. (former instructor at the infantry school, so I had a bit of leeway on the ranges.)

Second, I disagree with you guys saying he can't or should not do it and he has to spend a lot of money on the project. He can get a workable set up within his budget. If money is no object, then do all you guys talk about and spend, spend, spend. I know I have, my go-to-rifle is a set up pretty much like you insist he has to set his up, but I paid close to $1K for the flip up front sight, flip up rear sight, QD mount and EOTech, etc. You can go that way if you want, you just don't have to and thousands of shooters are perfectly fine with a more budget set up. Using the sights on the carry handle is saving the cost of an extra flip up sight and maybe a QD mount. He can get those later as funds are available.

Think outside your box and try to help the OP achieve his goals, not yours.

It is good to see a shooter wanting iron sights available, so many these days don't make the effort to learn how to properly use them.

 

[Theohazard]

Yes, I can get down and see the irons with that cheek riser in place.

If that's the case, your cheek riser isn't high enough. And if it is high enough, I doubt the irons are very useful with your setup. I've tried setups like that, and the irons are a pain to use.

Also a lot people don't use a riser and can get a good cheek weld and shoot their guns accurately.

Not as accurately as they would with proper cheek weld. Without a proper cheek weld, your eye is much less likely to be in the exact same position each time. And if you're using a non-parallax-adjustable scope (like most scopes designed for ARs), this means your point-of-aim will be slightly different each time you sight in.

Acera, it costs nothing to remove the carry handle. Sure, you don't have iron sights at that point, but with a scope mounted on a carry handle you can't use your irons very well anyway because of the cheek riser, at least with a cheek riser that's high enough. What makes more sense money-wise: Spending money on a carry handle scope mount that gives you a poorly-mounted scope, or spending the same amount of money on a receiver mount that mounts the scope in a much better position?

Here are the advantages to removing the carry handle and mounting the scope directly on the receiver:

-lighter weight
-more compact
-proper cheek weld without needing a riser (and it's pretty hard to find a riser for most collapsible stocks)
-longer max point blank range (BZO)
-fewer parts to come loose

And here are the advantages to mounting a scope on top of a carry handle:

-maybe you can skrunch your head down to see your iron sights, but it sure won't be very easy or very useful

Think outside your box and try to help the OP achieve his goals, not yours.

We're trying help him avoid a bad scope setup. If he wants to mount his scope on top of his removable carry handle, that's his business. But there's a reason that removable carry handles were invented.

 

[Ks5shooter]

You mean the one that was lost in that tragic canoeing accident?

I mean lets see EXACTLY what you have before I(we) can give you advice. Picture is worth a 1000 words and can lead to good ideas etc.

 

[brewer12345]

Wow, looks like my question ignited some controversy.

On irons: I mostly prefer blued steel and old walnut, so some of my rifles are open sights. I practice with them and try hard, but lets be honest: I simply cannot approach the accuracy potential of my rifles without a scope. I had bifocals when I was 12 and my eyesight is worse than that a few decades later. I really enjoy shooting unscoped, but for me it is a 35 yard proposition (50 at a big stretch unless the target is a deer or similar size) rather than 100 yards. That doesn't matter with a .22, but with a 556 it feels like I am leaving a lot of potential accuracy on the table.

I'd like to keep the option of open sights on this rifle, but if that isn't practical without a lot of hassle and/or expense then so be it. I have other stuff I enjoy shooting irons or peeps with. I also have to decide what I really want this thing for (if anything). I bought it because I could buy the upper and lower cheaply and figured it was now or never with an election year perhaps driving panicky behavior in a few months. I have managed to get it to the range once so far and it was fun to shoot, but irons definitely limit me. I think this will mostly be a target rifle since it isn't legal for deer where I hunt, I don't hunt coyotes, small game would be a smear on the landscape, and for home defense I would reach for a revolver or (more likely) a shotgun. So if it is going to chiefly be a target piece, a scope may be in order.

I will have to think about what I want to do with this thing and maybe make a few more range trips with irons before I make a decision.

 

[brewer12345]

I mean lets see EXACTLY what you have before I(we) can give you advice. Picture is worth a 1000 words and can lead to good ideas etc.

Understood. Its in the safe and I am not handy to go get it. It is a stock Aero complete lower mated to an Aero complete upper. 16" barrel, collapsible stock and removable carry handle. My involvement in the building of this thing was putting the upper and the lower next to each other and pushing in two pins.

 

[matrem]

Have shot several A2 uppers with scopes mounted, and yea it does work, but why?

The profile seems about as thick as an edgeways concrete block, the cheek weld is awful, and it's probably more expensive to properly mount a scope to one.

If you have a fixed carry handle, shoot irons and enjoy it.

Want a scope sighted AR: Don't buy an upper with a fixed carry handle.

 

[243winxb]

Worked ok for me. "] [/URL]

[/URL][/IMG] All Colt.

 

[Acera]

Nice M-16 243winxb, wish I could find one like that for $631.26 now

 

[slickone]

I have a mount similar to this on my AR
http://www.opticsplanet.com/kwik-site-see-thru-mount-for-ar15-weaver-27021.html

 

[1911 guy]

The carry handle mounts do work. But they work within the limitations of an extreme height over bore. Brewer has a removable carry handle which will allow him to mount an optic at a reasonable height and return to irons if he chooses. Under those conditions, suggesting a carry handle mount is detrimental.

 

[Theohazard]

The carry handle mounts do work. But they work within the limitations of an extreme height over bore. Brewer has a removable carry handle which will allow him to mount an optic at a reasonable height and return to irons if he chooses. Under those conditions, suggesting a carry handle mount is detrimental.

This. Notice that everyone in this thread who is talking about how they have a scope mounted to their carry handle has a fixed carry handle. They have no choice; if they want a scope they need to mount it to their carry handle.

But the OP has a choice. His flat-top AR came into existence for this exact reason: To make it much better for mounting a scope.

To me this thread is sort of like if a bunch of people had fixed-blade knives that they carried with belt sheathes, and then a person who owned a folding knife with a pocket clip came along and asked how to carry his knife, and some people told him to carry it with the blade open and in a sheath. Sure, he can do that, but his knife was designed to be carried conveniently folded and clipped inside his pocket. The people with the fixed blade knives don't have this option, so they have to use sheathes, but the guy with the folding knife isn't forced to use a sheath and can just carry his knife clipped inside his pocket.

 

[Ifishsum]

I do it temporarily for load development on my A2 service rifles; it's not as bad as it would seem to be but it's also just a fixed 4 power Leupold which probably helps somewhat. I would think it would be more difficult the higher power you went. With a removable carry handle there isn't much reason to do so anyway; a good set of QD mounts would let you swap on a scope and hold zero reasonably well.

 

[ACP]

This:

https://www.armsmounts.com/default.asp?mode=products&sub=mounts&id=[hsh]02

Attach any optic you want. The thumb screw makes on and off easy, and it absolutely holds its zero. When not in use, put the scope and mount in your coat pocket or in a waist bag, ruck sack, etc.

I've used this for years.

And cheek weld is not really an issue with a light recoiling cartridge like a 5.56. It's more like a "jaw weld," but you will hit your target.

 

[444]

I have a Colt SP1 with one of those Colt scopes mounted on the carry handle. This was the first AR I ever owned. I bought it in the early 1980s. So I have been shooting ARs for awhile. It is an old school rifle with an old school look and I like it that way. It has no cheek riser and I can't use the iron sights when the scope is mounted.

As was previously posted: is this the best possible set-up in 2016 ?
No. There are issues with this and these issues have been dealt with as the rifle evolved. Mine is like that for nostalgia. If you were starting from scratch, and want the best configuration, a flat top with good fold down iron sights, a good scope, and a good detachable scope mount is the way to go. But, you certainly can mount a scope on the carry handle and get decent results if you want to, or have to go that route. Two summers ago, I took my SP1 to an Appleseed shoot and shot three Rifleman scores with it. I know that is nothing to a SWAT certified, special forces sniper that uses his rifle to compete at Camp Perry, but it is OK in my world.

In addition, if you are planning to use a $100 scope, .......... well.......give it a try. But since you have a flat top receiver, I would stay away from the carry handle mount.

 

[ACP]

And for a scope I have a Nikon P223. It will handle most everything a 5.56 was intended to do, unless you are handloading heavy bullets and shooting small groups or varmints. But for SD and plinking it is great.

 

[Theohazard]

And cheek weld is not really an issue with a light recoiling cartridge like a 5.56. It's more like a "jaw weld," but you will hit your target.

Without a proper cheek weld, your eye is much less likely to be in the exact same position each time you sight in. And if you're using a non-parallax-adjustable scope (like most scopes designed for ARs), this means your point-of-aim will be slightly different each time you sight in.

So yeah, "jaw-weld" will work, but your consistency is going to suffer, and therefore your accuracy.