SCOTUS allows Ghost Gun ban to stay in effect as court cases move forward.

1. The ruling is procedural, and doesn't foreclose the final outcome of the case.

2. That said, this shows that the conservative majority of the Court is not as strong for gun rights as appeared immediately after Bruen. In fact, that lack of consensus may be the very reason they've delayed taking on any more gun cases.
 
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Ill be absolutely shocked if this ban is overturned. Theres only one reason why they would ever let it happen and its not good. This doesnt have anything to do with fake conservatives vs liberals on the supreme court. "Ghost guns" were the biggest concern for the ATF last time I talked to our local field agent. Overturning this ban would go against the entire agenda concerning firearms. Not gonna happen unless they try to use it to gaslight violence across the country.
 
It's a relatively minor "win" for AFTE in that a "ban" becomes status quo ante, if that winds up being debated.

In some fairness, SCOTUS is loathe to set into the middle of things already in a federal court.

There are plenty of legal scholars seeing the whole case overturned on APA violations, and without considering any 2A considerations.

"Because we say so" is no longer an automatic trump card for any given Agency. The Executive Branch is not meant to be able to just whistle up 'laws' and skip over the Legislative Branch.
 
CapnMac said:
It's a relatively minor "win" for AFTE in that a "ban" becomes status quo ante, if that winds up being debated.

In some fairness, SCOTUS is loathe to set into the middle of things already in a federal court.

There are plenty of legal scholars seeing the whole case overturned on APA violations, and without considering any 2A considerations.

"Because we say so" is no longer an automatic trump card for any given Agency. The Executive Branch is not meant to be able to just whistle up 'laws' and skip over the Legislative Branch.
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SCOTUS has agreed to take up Lopez Bright Enterprises v Raimondo in the upcoming session, a non-gun case which specifically asks whether Chevron deference, the doctrine that judges must defer to the relevant regulating agency on questions where the underlying statute is ambiguous, should be overturned. If they rule in favor of the plaintiffs, ATF's ability to invent new infringements on the Second Amendment will be eliminated. For this reason FPC, NSSF and GOA have all filed amicus briefs. You can see GOA's press release on this at https://www.gunowners.org/goa-and-gof-file-amicus-brief-with-scotus-in-chevron-case/.

The exact question the court agreed to review is:
Whether the Court should overrule Chevron or at least clarify that statutory silence concerning controversial powers expressly but narrowly granted elsewhere in the statute does not constitute an ambiguity requiring deference to the agency.​

link to FPC amicus brief:

link to NSSF amicus brief:

link to GOA amicus brief:

to see the full timeline including a listing of links to all the relevant documents including the many amicus briefs:

Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo - SCOTUSblog

Independent News and Analysis on the U.S. Supreme Court
www.scotusblog.com www.scotusblog.com
 
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AlexanderA said:
1. The ruling is procedural, and doesn't foreclose the final outcome of the case.

2. That said, this shows that the conservative majority of the Court is not as strong for gun rights as appeared immediately after Bruen. In fact, that lack of consensus may be the very reason they've delayed taking on any more gun cases.
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I think you are correct. The failure to support the needed TROs in several states, speaks to the same. Folks always say that it is because of procedural legal weeds but the outcome is not positive. The 4 remands to make the Circuits behave accomplished nothing. Telling the 2nd Circuit that we have our eye on you - crickets and the continuation of denied rights.

If the goal of ghost guns is to avoid NICS or similar laws, that is not going to be popular as a RKBA issue, IMHO. My LEO friends who are all for the RKBA, tell me it is a problem for them.
 
GEM said:
If the goal of ghost guns is to avoid NICS or similar laws, that is not going to be popular as a RKBA issue, IMHO. My LEO friends who are all for the RKBA, tell me it is a problem for them.
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I gather from discussions that the actual motivation of people who want to avoid NICS is that they don't want to be in any kind of registry. This applies not only to homemade guns (which as many point out have been common since the first settlers arrived here), but also we see posts here from people who say they only buy face to face. Personally I have only ever purchased from or through FFL's, but I understand where these folks are coming from, given that insituting a registry historically results in confiscation.

A much more direct method of preventing guns from being used to commit crimes would be to lock up criminals. Instead the same people that want to institute all these restrictions are the ones advocating for no bail and defunding the police.
 
I don't think you have discussions with folks who want the guns for criminal intent. That's who the LEOs have discussions with. There is a disconnect of the forum member who fears a registry or people using the kits to supply gang members. I don't think the latter are on your contacts.
 
PS - whether the current NICS system is a registry is another grand debate. It boils down to whether folks support buying guns without any background checks. OK, with Glock 19 vending machines on in urban center conveniences stores?

I know folks who bought the kits who are fine, professional, upstanding citizens. They wouldn't have evil intent. I talk the them. I don't talk to urban gang members.
 
I wouldnt say this is a minor win at all. I would say its the biggest win they have. Im not sure people are putting the pieces together to whats going on with this in conjunction with their new data mining system/ registry/ whatever they are calling it now. The two go hand in hand.

How people feel about this type of infringement is going to boil down to what they are willing to accept in terms of actual rights vs privligages. 80% frames are not a new thing. This polymer 80 stuff is but unfinished frames have been around forever. It has nothing to do with LE or what they think so I dont see why anything in that aspect is relevant. Criminals just removed serial numbers from stolen firearms if you are speaking in terms of traceability.

What you are witnessing is a goal thats been in the works for many, many years well before the polymer 80 frames or 3d printers ever hit the market. There will be no firearms outside the registry and they will have the ability to "take the guns, due process later" whenever they want. Thats always been the main goal since as long as I can remember. All the "tough on crime" talk is just a way to sell it to the law abiding public to get mass acceptance. The instances that have been occurring lately of harrasing home based FFLs is just another way to help further that goal. All this other stuff about pistol braces and trick triggers etc. is just distraction to keep the gun buying publics focus else wear. The reason things like Home FFLs, FTF sales, and Gun Shows will go away is because they are loopholes around their new system and more difficult to track.

For me personally I have always just gone through legitimate FFLs with storefronts that follow their system (All computerized now). If you are aware of the data mining systems, programs, and super computers there is not much of a "loophole" anyways if thats what people are looking for. Their grid is a lot more advanced than regular people at the ground level realize. What we are seeing now is more about streamlining that grid to make it more efficient. The polymer 80 stuff didnt interest me because you can basically buy a real and complete factory built pistol for the same price and I dont need a "ghost gun" (funny term IMO). I think it sticks for the hobbyist who wants to build a gun from a kit (similar to black powder kits of old) but these companies can always just serialize the frames if they want to keep selling the products.

3d printers are a bigger problem for this new system. I would love to own a 3D printer for other uses than frames but choose to stay away because they open a can of worms for the average law abiding firearms enthusiest that doesnt want to be hassled. Only way I can see them dealing with it is by tracking the downloads of printable files, procurement of parts kits, or managing to find a way to do a registry on 3d printers that can link up with existing systems. All thats likely being done already though. It would almost be better for me if the ATF started a registry on 3d printers because then I could buy one and it would be right in the open so they wouldnt get so suspicious.

This is the "New World" with their new system so people are going to have to figure out a way to live with it because its not going away. Major changes are coming. BATF wont be around forever (its already being taken down) but the system will still be in place. Once this new system is complete there wont be much use for the ATF and those duties will be absorbed into a bigger agency such as the NSA. The general public is not aware of this type of stuff though by design.
 
AlexanderA said:
1. The ruling is procedural, and doesn't foreclose the final outcome of the case.
Click to expand...
I disagree. The only reason to allow the ban to remain in place during litigation is that the Supreme Court believes the ATF will win on the merits of the case. This decision tells me that the Justices believe the ATF is within their powers. That tells me that, when this inevitably and eventually reaches the Supreme Court, their will either a.) deny certiorari and let the ban become permanent law, or b.) rule in favor of the ATF.

Additionally, this indicates to me that the Justices have no intention of enforcing the Bruen decision, because the laws requiring serial numbers on firearms is not in keeping with the "text and tradition" of the 2nd Amendment as written at the time of the founding. The wording of the Bruen decision should have been enough to have this law overturned, with or without the separation of powers argument. Indeed, either of those arguments should have been sufficient for an ATF defeat.
 
I agree. In all these, cases the argument that this or that failure to stand for guns rights is procedural and just you wait until .... is naive. One day, Thomas will carry the golden rules of gun rights on stone tablets as he strides down the stairs of the Court. Nope, IMHO.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
I disagree. The only reason to allow the ban to remain in place during litigation is that the Supreme Court believes the ATF will win on the merits of the case. This decision tells me that the Justices believe the ATF is within their powers. That tells me that, when this inevitably and eventually reaches the Supreme Court, their will either a.) deny certiorari and let the ban become permanent law, or b.) rule in favor of the ATF.

Additionally, this indicates to me that the Justices have no intention of enforcing the Bruen decision, because the laws requiring serial numbers on firearms is not in keeping with the "text and tradition" of the 2nd Amendment as written at the time of the founding. The wording of the Bruen decision should have been enough to have this law overturned, with or without the separation of powers argument. Indeed, either of those arguments should have been sufficient for an ATF defeat.
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Alternatively, maybe they are expecting to overturn Chevron deference (see my post #6 upthread, https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...court-cases-move-forward.921866/post-12689932), which would in turn kill this rule without them having to specifically make another pro-gun ruling.
 
GEM said:
PS - whether the current NICS system is a registry is another grand debate. It boils down to whether folks support buying guns without any background checks. OK, with Glock 19 vending machines on in urban center conveniences stores?

I know folks who bought the kits who are fine, professional, upstanding citizens. They wouldn't have evil intent. I talk the them. I don't talk to urban gang members.
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The 4473 form and bound book are a form of registration.

The background checks were a waste of time from the very start. There is no felon out there who wants a gun and can't get it. They may be scared of getting caught with it. But they aren't worried about background checks.

Imagine you were a felon in 1993 and there were universal background checks. You couldn't get someone to buy you a gun? If you really didn't have any friends or family, you'd need a center punch, screwdriver, and about 15 minutes in a mall parking lot.

The technology is past that anyway. My middle son can't replace the radiator in his car, but he can print a receiver.

If somebody is so dangerous we think he might kill somebody, he needs to be locked up. It's easier to get weapons and control then than ever before. We can't count on dangerous people to follow laws, and we can't make them safe with gun laws.
 
Some folks try to predict the ultimate holding of the court based on who appointed the judges, some on the basis of preliminary rulings, and some on the basis of the oral argument Q&A, but no one knows the final outcome. The more the talking heads on video and social media rail against the unfairness of it all, the more clicks and therefore money they get. Our opinions, proclamations and divinations won't even subsidize a cup of coffee, and most of our information comes pre-digested in this brave new world.

Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth that these justices we thought were bought and paid for aren't seeing it our way, at least as quickly as we would like, they take their oaths and their jobs seriously. Consider, if you will, the work that goes into building a record that will provide a solid footing for many years to come. There is more going on than we can know. Still, common taters are quick to throw a justice under the bus because she called as she saw it at this stage of the proceedings, thereby earning more clicks and alienating potential allies. If we don't know what we don't know, acting as if we did confirms that the Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
 
old lady new shooter said:
only the nationwide stay. Which is gonna make enforcement pretty complicated.
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And some are suggesting that actually constrains ATFE as they cannot enforce without knowing whether the target of their prosecution is a member of a presently protected class via the TRO.

Now, the history of AFTE suggests such niceties may not sway their own efforts in the slightest. That a flashy raid splashed across what remains of the legacy media will "cover for" any reports of overturned convictions buried on Page 27 of section F of the paper.
 
GEM said:
whether the current NICS system is a registry is another grand debate.
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Given that it's meant to only be a listing of Prohibited Persons, it's hard to argue it's a Registry of lawful owners or their firearms.

Now, the number of people rushing headlong to convert NICS into a UBC database, spoils the simplicity for a Prohibited Persons listing.

If NICS could be rebuilt as an auditable database that could be demonstrated to be both complete and accurate would allay much of the noise about the NICS.

Maybe.

Perhaps.
 
CapnMac said:
If NICS could be rebuilt as an auditable database that could be demonstrated to be both complete and accurate would allay much of the noise about the NICS.
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In response to rising street crime, the Weimar Republic implemented gun registration. The German Jews were law-abiding citizens and dutifully registered all their firearms. Right before Kristallnacht the Nazis used the complete and accurate database to round up all the Jews' guns.
 
CapnMac said:
And some are suggesting that actually constrains ATFE as they cannot enforce without knowing whether the target of their prosecution is a member of a presently protected class via the TRO.

Now, the history of AFTE suggests such niceties may not sway their own efforts in the slightest. That a flashy raid splashed across what remains of the legacy media will "cover for" any reports of overturned convictions buried on Page 27 of section F of the paper.
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Thankfully we now have aggressive 2A organizations, and the members of those organizations are the majority of the people in the protected class. ATF will not be happy about the response to their raid.
 
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