Scout Rifles don't seem popular

[Lovesbeer99]

This seams odd to me. Maybe its because many people have never actually handled one. You get the enhanced sight picture wth a long eye relief, back up signts just in case, handy light rifle in a caliber like 308 or 260 rem or surplus like 8mm or 6.5 swede. It just seams to be a great set up and if I were to chose a single all around rifle this would be it.

So, I'm building 1 from a Yugo M48 action. (Not a whole gun) I'll convert it 308 or 260 rem, boyds stock and a trigger yet to be determined. I already have a Leupold 2.5 scout scope on a mauser. I like the set up.

Wasn't this rifle pattern design by Jeff Cooper? How can you go wrong?

 

[Shawnee]

Maybe the "scout rifle" concept is just a mediocre, weird-looking solution to an over-hyped "problem".

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Seems like there's some coal in this seam.

 

[Just Jim]

I got a Savage Scout in 7mm08. I like it alot and hunt with it. The Savage has a few failings in that the magazines are weak and they are still too heavey for the concept.

Styer seems to be the best in the factory guns but cost way too much. Rugers gun is way too heavy. Ruger should have used the light polymer stock they used to have rather than a heavy laminated stock.

Problem with the Scout guns is they either are not done well or the cost far exceeds what was done to them.

jj

 

[H2O MAN]

I love scout style forward mounted optics, especially 1x red dots.
The 2.5x Leupold Scout scope is very nice as long as you keep it low.

Keep in mind that Cooper's Scout concept is flexible and open ended.
Set your rifle up in a way that works best for you and don't worry about
folks telling you it's not a true scout or some other crap like that.

Good luck.

 

[El Tejon]

So, I'm building 1 from a Yugo M48 action. (Not a whole gun) I'll convert it 308 or 260 rem, boyds stock and a trigger yet to be determined. I already have a Leupold 2.5 scout scope on a mauser. I like the set up.

Will it make weight? Can you post a pic once you get it done?

Wasn't this rifle pattern design by Jeff Cooper?

No, he popularized it by giving it a name perhaps after Les Bowman (gun writer from the '50s and '60s for our younger set here at THR) made a big deal about the Remington 660 carbines. Short handy ("utile" to use an API word) rifles have been around for a long time. The forward mounted telescopic sight is nothing new. You can find photos from WWII of German soldiers shooting 98s with a forward mounted telescopic sight. I have footage from the Dieppe Raid of a pair of German sharpshooters using 98s modified this way.

How can you go wrong?

Because shooters today have little idea what they are doing. Just go to the big box sporting good stores and watch all the Jaspers cycle a bolt action weapon from their food blister bloated waists while their tongues hang out. Pick up a glossy gun rag and see all the shooters not using slings or improper shooting positions.

Outside elements of the military and shooting schools that perhaps one in 20K shooters have attened, shooting is no longer taught. Outside the shooting schools and elements of the military, gun handling is no longer taught.

The market for Scout Rifles will always remain self-selected, educated shooters, a tiny segment of the shooting population.

Keep in mind that Cooper's Scout concept is flexible and open ended.

Did not Cooper give a definition from the confab at API?

 

[Rosstradamus]

A solution in search of a problem.

"Two weeks after the balloon goes up, iron sights will rule the world." - Clint Smith

 

[El Tejon]

Isn't that why Scout Rifles have iron sights, Clint.

 

[Frog48]

Maybe the "scout rifle" concept is just a mediocre, weird-looking solution to an over-hyped "problem".

Bingo.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The scout rifle does nothing that a traditional rifle can't do if it's equipped with a lower magnification scope and the shooter learns to shoot with both eyes open.

Scout rifle concept = monkey see monkey do

 

[El Tejon]

The forward mounted sight also allows greater ease of manipulating the weapon and loading the weapon. As well as prevents "Scope Scar" over the eye.

Scope rifle concept=what the better educated monkey is using.

 

[Just Jim]

The scout rifle does nothing that a traditional rifle can't do if it's equipped with a lower magnification scope and the shooter learns to shoot with both eyes open.

Yep and the M4 does nothing better than the M16 but it sure is easier to carry.

jj

 

[R.W.Dale]

Yep and the M4 does nothing better than the M16 but it sure is easier to carry.

jj

I according to legend you can actually buy bolt action carbines that aren't scout rifles. If this fable is true I know not

 

[Mongrel]

I'll give it a try. Where my opinion differs from anyone above let me state that it differs 'respectfully'. Also, I will disclose up front that I don't own a 'Scout Rifle' per se but have read much of what has been written by Cooper and others about them. I had already bought the tickets to the dance before I knew about them and haven't made the decision to pursue one yet. I will also point out, to be fair, that I haven't hunted in years and I have no military experience apart from being raised by a former Marine and NRA qualified instructor.

I never met Jeff Cooper but I've heard he was everything from a "man's man" to an arrogant snob. Obviously, somewhere along the line he gained the respect of a whole lotta people and although as I said, he's been described as arrogant, I've never heard anyone say he wasn't the real-deal when it came to shooting. Primarily I guess he was known for his practical pistol influence, but I believe he had a greater love for the "rifleman" and he certainly spent his latter years espousing the discipline of proper rifle shooting technique. Let's keep this in mind as we discuss. I will say that while I may not have been able to fully appreciate his writing due to my own lack of experience, I thouroughly enjoyed his writing AND his world perspective on a great many subjects. It certainly seemed Col. Cooper didn't have a lot of use for "gray" and preferred his world to be mostly black and white. I like that in a man and I miss it in our current panty-waist culture where the American male has been nothing short of emasculated.

So this is a discussion of the Scout Rifle concept and so far we have...

Why is hasn't caught on.
"Maybe the "scout rifle" concept is just a mediocre, weird-looking solution to an over-hyped "problem". "
"A solution in search of a problem."

It's interesting that Jeff himself prophesied this. He *knew* iirc that it wouldn't catch on, and that there wouldn't be many who picked up on the Zen of the thing. It's also interesting to me that the man credited with taking us out of the dark ages of Bullseye shooting and into the light of practical pistol craft would be accused of coming up with a "solution to a non-existing problem" (remember Jeff's description of DAO pistols and the grip safety?) or as stated above an over-hyped problem. I submit, that just as he had the foresight to see the limitations of bullseye shooting he also had the vision to see the foolishness of a dependance on *rifles* and not on *rifleman*. This strikes me as pure irony. In other words, Cooper saw a problem that we didn't even know we have, and still don't for the most part. So we fail to see the beauty and simplicity of the Scout rifle concept and we miss the fact that it solved a myriad of problems in one package. I think it's important to note the use of the word "concept". This should not be ignored-you are considering a concept, NOT just a rifle. And in that study if you fail to grasp the concept then the "rifle" would be foolishness to you because it is just another bolt-gun.

We live in a gun-culture in this country that reflects our wealth and hunger for "things". Not just a few things but as many things as we can get our hands on. We live in a protected fantasy world for the most part where we insist upon choices and live as if we will always have them. We have calibers for woodchucks and prarie dogs, deer and grizzly bear, and five different weapons for each depending on the day of the week. We have more guns for plinking than our grandfathers ever owned in the whole life and for many of us a decision to "go shooting" is hindered by standing in front of our safe with our hand on our chin trying to make a decision of what to take today? And why not damnit-I'm an AMERICAN! We talk endlessly of 'scenarios' and 'situations' and fantasize over what zombie gun flavor we need this month and what matching knife and tactical vest goes best with our boots, but we can't seem to grasp the concept of basic riflery as a lifestyle choice.

Cooper did help foster a solution to a non-existant problem in the truest sense. For how can there be a problem if nobody sees it?

For those that can see it, the concept of a short, light, handy rifle in a dependable platform that's easy to maintain, accurate, and shoots a caliber that *works* is a perfect fit to the question that is endlessly asked-which gun?

Long live the Scout!

 

[Rifleman 173]

The scout rifle concept is not a bad idea at all but, like many other ideas, it is not for everybody or every hunting situation. There are any number of reasons why the scout rifle might or might not work for people. Some people with eye problems or a physical disability may not be able to use the system. Some people may not like it for other reasons involving personal preferences. I'm pretty sure that Col. Cooper put the scout rifle concept together with the idea that it was another option for shooters to have available to them. Men like Cooper want the ability to decide how to do things for themselves. They want to make their own decisions and the scout rifle idea is a good decision for some shooters. I would bet a month's pay that Colonel Cooper had rifles set up for use both as regular scoped hunting rifles and as scout rifles too. When he was world renowned for his pistol training he went ahead and developed the rifle and shotgun courses too so that he could provide more options in personal defense for more shooters. I also think that deep down inside of him, Colonel Cooper knew, for a fact, that one day our nation will need each and every firearm that it has available in it to defend itself from foreign enemies. I think that being a good American he knew two main things: (1.) every American should own and know how to shoot guns and (2.) history repeats itself. If he's right, then our nation will, again, be subjected to more attacks and possible invasion by hostile military forces from outside of our borders. Our nation was once occupied by foreign military troops back in the late 1700s and again in the War of 1812. And if you look back to WW2 when the Japanese invaded the Aluetian Islands, they managed to invade American territory while the Germans were landing hostile forces, albeit limited in their numbers and effectiveness, on our nation's east coast by submarine. So Cooper's scout rifle concept isn't a bad one at all. I'm waiting to see if somebody puts 2 and 2 together to include it in some tactical rifle training classes. Hint: think EOTech scopes with their forward mounting systems.

 

[W.E.G.]

Its a good concept with particular value for certain needs and applications.

Economy:Utility ratio is really a whole other argument.

There never will be one ideal one-size-fits-all mousetrap when it comes to rifles.

 

[Mongrel]

There never will be one ideal one-size-fits-all mousetrap when it comes to rifles

This is absolutely correct.

Now, how many mousetraps can you carry at one time?

That is, in essence the question.

Also, see the post by Rifleman 173. He touched upon the ultimate point. Develop a practical weapon that will answer the call on so many fronts-meat or man-without compromising effectiveness that can be carried with confidence by someone who knows how to use it.

 

[Just Jim]

+1 Weg

 

[Vaarok]

The Germans came up with it when they made their Zf-41 rifles, meant to allow a single trooper on a squad to deliver more-accurate designated-marksman firepower with less risk of damage to the scope compared to a conventional mount, and because it was cheaper to make.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've followed the arguments about the Scout concept since Cooper first publicized his ideas. My problem with the negatives is that most of them are about personal preference, rather than the physical or technical.

Several things that Cooper said that a lot of folks ignore: A "scout" is not a person seeking combat, but rather one seeking information as to what's going on in the surrounding country side. That holds whether one is involved in hunting either people or Bambi. In so doing, a scout avoids being seen or heard.

This gets to the weapon: Light and handy. Well, seven pounds fully dressed is good. One meter in length is good. (Same as my Sako Forester .243 carbine.) A sighting system allowing for very rapid acquisition of a sight picture if necessary. A ghost-ring peep sight or a forward-mounted scope fulfills this.

Cartridge? Sure, lots of reasonable differing opinions, here, but IMO the .308 is a very good all-around cartridge. And Cooper's idea was real heavy on "all-around".

Cooper was not a fan of shooting at long range nor via offhand at distances much past 100 yards. I say this from reading about some of his west Texas hunting for Aoudad in the Davis Mountains. Thus the scope magnification of some 1.5 to 5 is quite reasonable. The idea of a bipod, if it doesn't impact the total weight, makes sense.

So, overall, for what Cooper envisioned, his final design concepts make very good sense.

Steyr was the only manufacturer to initially show interest. (Savage came along later with their less-expensive version. Johnny Guest has one. I shot it a time or two. It works; it's just not my deal. But, he likes it, which is far more important.) IMO, the Steyr product is about as ugly as home-made sin built by unskilled labor. However, it does work, as was proven at Gunsite many times in rifle competition and in various hunts about which Cooper wrote.

It's like anything else in our happy little world of rifles: That which suits you and meets your needs is good. Those outside your own parameters should be unimportant to you. What I think oughta be important to you is that the other fella is happy with his "strange critter".

Life is real easy if you let it be...

, Art

 

[Shawnee]

Seems to me that if the "scout's" role is defined as using his weapon only "if necessary", then he did not need either a caliber like the .308 or the weight, bulk and relative "slowness" of a scope. He needed an M1 carbine or Ruger .44 magnum carbine with "ghost ring" sights, or something similar.

 

[Jackal]

I have owned and used scout style rifles. Then I sold them. Just can't find the point of using a scout rifle. Everything may add up on paper, but when you pick it up to use it, it just feels wrong.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Seems to me that if the "scout's" role is defined as using his weapon only "if necessary", then he did not need either a caliber like the .308 or the weight, bulk and relative "slowness" of a scope. He needed an M1 carbine or Ruger .44 magnum carbine with "ghost ring" sights, or something similar.

Having been in a military MOS with the word "scout" in the title (cavalry type, not USMC scout-slash type) for a decade or so, I have to say that Cooper's requirements for the scout rifle do nothing we actually needed an individual weapon to do (except for the weight requirement). We ideally did not want to use our weapons, as someone mentioned up-thread, but if we did need to use them, we needed to be able to generate a much higher volume of reasonably accurate fire than a bolt gun allows for. An M4 with an ACOG is a much better "military scout rifle" than a .308 bolt gun with a LER low powered scope (especially if one in three or four has an M203 attached).

However, I like the idea for a general purpose walking-and-hunting kind of rifle for non-military applications. It's a tool in the toolbox, even then, and may not be the right approach to all possible hunting scenarios, but it's a pretty generalist tool that's good for many applications.