.308 Scout Rifle

[High Planes Drifter]

I've been mulling over Jeff Coopers idea of a .308 Scout Rifle. A short, light, rifle with open sights, forward mounted scope, and chambered in .308 Winchester. I can see the usefullness in this. Actually I can see myself making htis my go-to rifle at all times except home defense.

I thought about buying the Ruger Frontier. Then I discovered, through research, it didnt have (or offer) back up iron sights sights.


What manufacturers make a Scout rifle in .308, that offer BUIS (Back Up Iron Sights) ?

 

[M'bogo]

Savage offers a scout rifle that has BUIS. The link for the rifle is below.

http://www.savagearms.com/10fcmscout.htm

M'bogo

 

[dmckean44]

http://www.shawnstactical.com/truckgun.html

The ones this guy makes have always caught my eye but I'm not sure what he charges.

 

[Molasses]

Personally, I took the plunge for a Steyr scout in the Jeff Cooper package. Expensive, but it has the features I wanted. Including low profile folding BUIS...

You might also snoop around here:
http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php

Another good resource is Fr. Frog's scout rifle pages. Google should pull it up...

 

[jmr40]

The Savage is probably the best option for the money. I had one for a while and they are not bad. After trying it I just did not like the forward mounted scope. I came to the conclusion that a conventionally mounted scope with QD mounts and open sights worked better, at least for me.

Another option to consider is a Marlin 30-30 with a Scout scope.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I used to like the concept but then realized there is no situation I can think of where I would actually want to use a scout rifle.

Also, the scout rifle concept was really proposed in the days before red dot sights like Aimpoint were available. I am not sure Cooper would have designed it as he did if these type sights had been around.

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

I'm with Lone_Gunman, I guess I don't see the real world need for such a rifle. If I'm hunting short range I could use a lever action which is already short, light and handy. Hunting long range I have another rifle suited for the task, but with adjustable scope to allow for shorter shots. For the price of a Steyr Scout package I could buy a used Marlin and a used or new Remington 700. I used to tire reading Cooper's column where he would constantly warn against imitator scout rifles, and only recommend the expensive Steyr rifle.

 

[Art Eatman]

I agree with Cooper about the Steyr, although I find it ugly and over-priced. But, it meets his criteria. People who've done the shoot-and-scoot runs at Gunsite generally did better with Scouts than with other designs.

I tried Johnny Guest's Savage Scout, but I just don't care for the forward mounting of the scope. Too many decades of "conventional" mounting, for my comfort and ease of use. But that's just me. I could probably get used to it, if I saw a need.

Cooper always saw his world as including the possibility of shooting at hostile people, as well as a regular sporting hunt. Most of us play "either-or".

 

[snorko]

I plan to get a Ruger Frontier, have sights instqalled, and do the easy fixed M1A 10 round mag conversion.

 

[Rosstradamus]

I'm with LG and RR. The Scout rifle is a solution in search of a problem.

In my opinion, your money is better spent elsewhere... like on ammo.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I am not saying that the scout concept is bad, or the Cooper is (God forbid) wrong. I am just saying that for me, "either-or" as Art describes is my situation.

I deer hunt, so a scoped rifle is needed, but not a forward mount.

I also see a need to defend myself from zombies, so a light quick handing rifle is needed.

I don't see a need to have one rifle that does both.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Or you could mount an Aimpoint or other and mount it reguarly like a normal scope for a fast optic, or you could buy that Remington mount, and mount it a bit more foward, or an Aimpoint with a 3x magnifier.

What about that?

 

[vicdotcom]

I don't know if it is a scout rifle by definition. But Remington Model Seven never let me down yet. .308 and I only use iron sights.

 

[AK103K]

I have one of the early Savage Scouts. Its been a great rifle, no matter how you set it up. Mine has repeatedly shot an inch or less using my hand loads at 100 yards off a bipod, and its trigger, although not one of the new Accutriggers, was a very nice trigger right out of the box and needed no messing with. I've used it with both Scout type scope and an Aimpoint. Its not perfect, but for the money, it cant be beat, and the small issues I had, were easily addressed.

I looked at the Ruger Frontier when they first came out. Like most other Ruger rifles, they are pretty, but my experience with their rifles has been they are not all that accurate, and usually need trigger work, so I passed. I do prefer their scope mount over the B Square on the Savage.

For a rifle meant to be used in most any situation, the Scout does make for a better choice over the conventionally scoped rifles. But like anything else thats a jack of all trades, it can be somewhat lacking in some respects.

Its been my experience that people either like them or they dont. Most that dont usually havent shot or used one enough to know what they are missing, but that usually how it goes with most things.

I liked my Scout enough that its bled over into other rifles that dont usually fit the Scout concept. For a gun to be used as a quick handling gun, I prefer the sight to be up forward as far as possible, out of the way of both handling and my vision. For me, it just works better. I have AR's and AK's set up with forward mounted dots, and have used both dot and Scout scopes on my M1A SOCOM and one of my AK's. Once your used to the concept and know how well it works, its pretty hard to go back.

The other bleed over has been the Ching type sling. When it comes to a sling, there is nothing quicker to get into use, and it offers the same rock solid hold. For a hunting or general use rifle, there is noting better.

 

[Pack]

I had an old Mauser - a Yugo, not a proper German K98K, so no one have a heart attack - that I had cut and crowned at @ 17", and used the mount that inserts a small optic rail in place of the rear sight.

In terms of the "scout" technical specs, this leaves one without iron sights, but they could easily be added on, and it was a handy rifle. The same gunsmith often mills off the stripper clip guide, but for me having this feature intact is kind the whole point.

Even if you don't intend to use the weapon defensively, 1) why not have the option of a slightly enhanced capability to do so, and 2) even for hunting, I find having one full stripper clip far more handy than 5 rounds loose, individually in a sleeve on the butt of the rifle, etc.

It's not perfect, or pretty, but you can have an effective all-pirpose gun on the cheap.

Cooper may well have modified the concept had he lived in a world with durable, useful, and cost-effective red dots, or similar advanced optical solutions, but mounting the optic back over the receiver negates the stripper clip feature.

Though, now that I think of it...

You could make an interesting variation of a scout by putting a red dot over the receiver, but using a model of bolt rifle with detachable mags. Lee-Enfield?

 

[Al Thompson]

Biggest issue I have with mine is the scope. I'd rather have a 2.5 or better for low light shooting, forward mount for day light. The rifle size and handling charateristics work very well, just not thrilled about the scope.

 

[AK103K]

The Scout scope has basically the same problems that you encounter with aperture type iron sights, light coming in low over your shoulder from behind can often make it difficult to properly see your sights or cross hairs.

The Scout scopes are also harder to use in lower light since they are farther away from your eye.

I personally would prefer the power to be less, say around 1-1.5x. I have both Leupold and Burris Scout scopes, and prefer the Leupold. Its a little clearer and brighter, and for me, that extra 0.25 in power on the Burris is annoying.

The ideal scope would really be one that had an illuminated dot at the intersection of the cross hairs. It would be the best of both worlds. Something like the Trijicon Accupoint in 1.25x4 with a long eye relief would really fit the bill.

 

[Flashman]

For what it is worth, this topic has been beat to death. Posters either hate the Scout concept or love it and most of those that hate it have never used one or least never spent any time shooting a Steyr, Savage or one of the good clones. A magazine of rounds down the range as far as I am concerned doesn't count. As Jeff Cooper said, to really appreciate a Scout one has to use it. Myself, I was sold on the concept long before I bought a Savage. Using the Savage Scout at Gunsite 270 only reinforced the merits of the Scout concept but also the Savage as a platform. The best riflemen at 270 were the most experienced and capable rifle users and it was not dependent on the rifle. That said, the most serious students had Steyrs, and perhaps the best, had a Remington clone scout. There were two Ruger Frontiers with two good shooters. I had one of two Savage Scouts--the ergonomics were nearly perfect for me and the Ching Sling gave a definite edge. However the bolt retaining pins on both rifles failed, and the other one failed twice. Very disconcerting. Mine was down one day before the part came in. Savage later replaced the innards of the bolt with the magnum bolt retaining pin and associated parts. No problems since. The Remington Model 7 (unaltered) loaner with a standard scope had a difficult bolt and didn't like to be fed new rounds.
The Steyr is a great platform but has its problems as well--namely heavy bolt lift and light primer strikes. A couple of the shooters struggled with the bolt lift in my class.
That said, what would I get next. I think the Ruger Hawkeye in .308 Stainless is a good starting point. This is what I would do:
1. Reduce the length of pull to 12 3/4 to 13" 's.
2. Reduce the barrel length to 19 to 20" 's.
3. Install a flush mount for a Ching Sling just forward of the action.
4. Get a Ruger scout mount and have it installed--the one used for the Frontier.
5. Have a set of Ruger standard front and rear sights installed (remember it is for back up, not primary; this a lot of heartache and expense of a back up ghost ring and a front sight that matches.

The current Ruger synthetic stock is excellent--very strong, very ergonomic, and a stable consistent platform for the action. The Ruger action is bullet proof--no bolt retaining pins or other issues to worry about, and there a million of them out compared to the Steyr where parts are an on and off again propostion.

The only downside I see is that the scope is mounted a little higher than I would like but so is my Savage. The above isn't cheap but I bet it can be done without breaking a $1000 and in my view you will have a durable, reliable, accurate, ergonomic Scout rifle that will be as good as the several custom builders or a Steyr.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

For what it is worth, this topic has been beat to death.

Considering the concept wasn't really Cooper's to start with, it really has, but because Cooper said it, then the idea has some remarkable credibility.

Nice history and Steyr review here...
http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/scout/scout.htm

The concept is fine and one used by hunters longer before Cooper, but I don't think it would be my idea of a fighting gun given the better options available today.

 

[AK103K]

....but I don't think it would be my idea of a fighting gun given the better options available today.

Applying its forward mounted sights, be it red dot or scope, to some of those other options, is still a very viable and useful option. On the lighter, handier type carbines, there is nothing more natural or quicker to shoot well with.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Than what, exactly?

 

[M1key]

QUOTE: Than what, exactly?

Saiga 308...if you can find one, about $600.

 

[AK103K]

Than what, exactly?

Than the traditional, more rear mounted optics.

This is especially true with red doted AK's. You get a low, forward mounted sight, that is out of your way, both handling and vision wise, that is in line with your iron sights, so you get the same "nose to the top cover" cheek weld you always had, and a cowitnessed dot with the right sights.

No high, in your face Kobras, or side rail mounted sights that do not shoulder and shoot naturally, and block your vision.

The M1A's work pretty well with the same set up, but you need to ditch the Springfield rail and go with something like an Ultimak. You still dont get your iron sights, but even with the higher Springfield mount its still very doable.

The farther out front on the AR's the better, but many of the cantilever mounts are not too bad, and will get the sight forward and allow BUIS behind.

For me, the AK's shoulder and shoot more naturally than the others, but thats me. My AR's are no slackers, but I find them to be somewhat awkward and clunky to shoulder and shoot, even with an A1 stock on them.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Having owned a Steyr Scout and sold it I can honestly say that I kick myself for letting it go. It was such a useful rifle, light, handy, reasonably powerful, and quite accurate. I had both a Leupold Scout Scope, and a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8X36 both in QD rings. Man I shouldn't have let that rifle go.

Sure there are things that could have been improved on it, for example it could have used a lighter bolt throw and it was not too good on hard military primers..... but overall it was a slick rifle.

 

[steveracer]

The Shawn's Tactical "Truck Gun" is a nice rifle, but he's priced it WAY too high. 18 months ago, it was $600, complete.
Now it's $900. Getting a little crazy for a Stevens.