Seattle cop charged in SD shooting, carrying concealed pistiol without a permit

[bohicaconcepts]

Can someone tell me why these officers were not covered under HR218? Several were charged with carrying concealed weapon without a permit.

Seattle Officer Charged in Hells Angels Shooting
Posted: August 29th, 2008 10:08 AM EDT

Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times

--

Aug. 28--Several felony charges were filed in South Dakota this morning against a Seattle police officer who shot and wounded a Hells Angels member during a fight inside a Sturgis bar earlier this month.

The Meade County, S.D., State Attorney's Office charged police detective Ronald Smith with aggravated assault, perjury and a misdemeanor count of carrying a concealed pistol without a permit.
Smith had earlier said he shot and wounded Hells Angels member Joseph McGuire after being jumped by several bikers inside the Loud American Roadhouse on Aug. 9 during the annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally. Smith this morning declined to comment on the charges, but said he was hiring an attorney.

An aggravated assault charge was filed against McGuire, 33, of Imperial Beach, Calif.

Misdemeanor charges also were filed against four other members of a motorcycle club called the Iron Pigs, which is made up of police and firefighters. Smith is a member of the club.

If convicted of felony assault, Smith and McGuire could each face up to 15 years in prison and $30,000 fine. If convicted of perjury, Smith faces up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

The other Iron Pig members who were with Smith in Sturgis were each charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. They include: Scott Lazalde, 38, of Bellingham; James Rector, 44, of Ferndale, Whatcom County; Erik Pingel, 35, of Aurora, Colo.; and Seattle police Sgt. Dennis McCoy, 49, of Seattle. Lazalde and Rector are members of U.S. Customs and Border Inspection in Blaine.
A conviction on the misdemeanor could result in up to one year in a county jail and a $2,000 fine.

While Seattle police have long had a policy of firing officers charged with a felony, department spokesman Jeff Kappel issued a statement this morning that read, "the department continues to gather and receive information, the officers will remain on administrative leave."

Smith and McCoy, who were both inside the bar when the shooting happened, as well as and several other Seattle police officers who traveled to the motorcycle rally are on administrative leave, the authorities said.

Smith, 43, said he has belonged to the Seattle chapter of the Iron Pigs since it was founded several years ago. He said he and other officers were in Sturgis attending the famed annual motorcycle rally there.

Meade County State Attorney Jesse Sondreal said in the news release that 10 witnesses testified Wednesday before a grand jury. Another 25, including Smith, testified on Aug. 10.

Sondreal said in an e-mail this morning that the grand jury found that Smith lied while testifying before them the day after the shooting.

"The grand jury must've decided that Mr. Smith, having taken an oath to testify truly, in a state proceeding, stated intentionally and contrary to the oath, a material matter which he knew to be false," Sondreal wrote.

Smith, who has said he may have been targeted by the motorcycle gang, testified in a high-profile federal racketeering and murder trial last year that sent several former and current members of the Hells Angels to prison. All four defendants in the case went to prison -- for terms ranging from seven years to life without parole -- for convictions on conspiracy and racketeering charges.

Court records and police testimony show that the detective has clashed with another Hells Angels member before.

Smith filed charges in 2005, alleging that Anthony James Magnesi, a member of the Washington Nomads chapter of the Hells Angels, had threatened him over the phone.

Magnesi, in turn, recorded one of their phone conversations and gave it to the police department's Office of Professional Accountability (OPA), claiming it was Smith who had threatened him.

An internal investigation was opened, and the incident was referred to Smith's supervisor as a training issue, according to OPA officials.

The misdemeanor criminal charges filed by Smith against Magnesi were dismissed.

Jennifer Sullivan: 206-464-8294 or [email protected]




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[TexasRifleman]

Can someone tell me why these officers were not covered under HR218? Several were charged with carrying concealed weapon without a permit.

Is bar carry legal there? HR218 doesn't allow you to violate state law on where you can carry. Maybe that's it?

Or if they were intoxicated. There's no coverage if you're drunk.

Dunno, just guessing but there are lots of limits to it.

This law applies to persons who meet the definition listed below of a "Qualified Law Enforcement Officer."

qualified law enforcement officer means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

 

[Frank Ettin]

As is often the case in these sorts of threads, we have only the barest sketch of things from a newspaper article, which may itself contain errors. Pretty much anything we might say will largely be idle speculation based on assumptions and guesses.

 

[Loomis]

Cops can't conceal carry in a state that doesn't have reciprocity with their home state. iirc

 

[gc70]

South Dakota Codified Laws 23-7-8.1

The holder of a permit may carry a concealed pistol anywhere in South Dakota except in any licensed on-sale malt beverage or alcoholic beverage establishment that derives over one-half of its total income from the sale of malt or alcoholic beverages.

 

[coyotehitman]

Cops can't conceal carry in a state that doesn't have reciprocity with their home state

That doesn't apply to LEO's, Loomis.

IMO, carrying a gun as a patron in a bar is poor judgement, whether allowed or not.
I would be interested in knowing all the facts, though.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The complete text of the law is here:

http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

 

[ArmedBear]

Reciprocity or no, it is not unheard-of for some groups of cops to go looking for a fight in a bar.

Let's see how this pans out.

 

[wuchak]

This Smith guy sounds like a real butt hole.

I love the idea that if the individual threatened the officer on the phone it's a misdemeanor crime but if the police do the threatening it's a "Training issue".

A bunch of off duty cops playing in a motorcycle gang heading to Sturgis where they end up in a bar with a bunch of the buddies of some guys they put away last year. Gee, what could possibly go wrong?

I'll bet money that less than 15 minutes before the shooting Smith was bragging to his friends about having put some of the Hell's Angels in prison.

 

[JFettig]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't SD.

Do you have a link to this article?

Jon

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I am all for police and other community service personnel forming clubs. I am all for these clubs creating a bridge with the community. A trip to Sturgis is basically a great idea - but long sessions in bars with known criminal elements in the area - poor, poor judgment.

 

[divemedic]

Anything with HR infers a bill, not a law. The law you are talking about is LEOSA. LEOSA states that a police officer does not need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. LEOSA does not allow a LEO to carry a concealed weapon into a place which is prohibited to CCW holders.

 

[deadin]

Do you have a link to this article?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008145767_sturgis29m.html

 

[Loomis]

coyotehitman says:

"That doesn't apply to LEO's, Loomis."

I live in iowa. At my permit to carry course, the sherrif teaching it warned us about driving into nebraska. Apparently, two off duty LEOs drove into omaha for a weekend(omaha is the biggest city around except for desmoines). They were arrested and jailed and firearms confiscated by omaha cops. When they were finally released, the firearms were not returned.

The fact that they were LEOs made not one lick of difference to nebraska. iirc, the teacher's explanation for why this happened was because there is no reciprocity between iowa and nebraska. My memory is a little fuzzy on the details though. It could be they had been drinking or something.

 

[ants]

Please click the link and read the entire article for additional information. The original post missed some of it while cut-and-pasting it to the Forum.

There was surveillance video of the bar fight, which the Grand Jury viewed. It seems that the Seattle officer's story didn't agree with the image on video tape.

Witnesses also stated that the Iron Pig officers and the Hell's Angels were verbally sparring before the fight finally broke out.

The article also has a short discussion on the federal concealed weapons law and how it is interpreted by the local sheriff. Apparently the Grand Jury has a differing view, but little information is offered on that.

As Fiddletown noted in Post #3 above, there is more to the story than we presently understand.

 

[Frog48]

State Attorney's Office charged police detective Ronald Smith with aggravated assault, perjury and a misdemeanor count of carrying a concealed pistol without a permit.

Smith had earlier said he shot and wounded Hells Angels member Joseph McGuire after being jumped by several bikers inside the Loud American Roadhouse on Aug. 9 during the annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally. Smith this morning declined to comment on the charges, but said he was hiring an attorney.

Court records and police testimony show that the detective has clashed with another Hells Angels member before.

Sounds like this group of cops was out looking for a fight.

When they were finally released, the firearms were not returned.

The fact that they were LEOs made not one lick of difference to nebraska. iirc, the teacher's explanation for why this happened was because there is no reciprocity between iowa and nebraska.

Prior to passage of HR218/LEOSA, that very well could have been true. But if it happened after passage, any convictions most certainly would be overturned on appeal, and a court order would return the weapons.

If I were those guys, I wouldnt bother appealing in Nebraska, I'd file in federal court (since HR218/LEOSA is a federal law).

 

[coyotehitman]

Loomis, it may have occurred prior to HR218 being signed into law, or there may have been some facts that were left out of the story you heard.

Here is a quote and the link is below for those who are interested.

Since LEAA first drafted "National Concealed Carry for Cops" twelve years ago, we have fought tirelessly to see this law bring much-needed protection to police officers, their families and our communities.
Read the complete text of H.R. 218

Celebrating victory after twelve long years of steadfast work, LEAA Exec. Director Jim Fotis and
Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham stand in the White House before the table where, moments later,
President George W. Bush signed H.R. 218 into law.

http://www.leaa.org/218/

I'll bet money that less than 15 minutes before the shooting Smith was bragging to his friends about having put some of the Hell's Angels in prison.

Here is what I bet. One or both parties in this incident was the instigator, and neither party appeared to have done the sensible thing and left at the first sign of trouble.

Pretty much anything we might say will largely be idle speculation based on assumptions and guesses.

+1

Reciprocity or no, it is not unheard-of for some groups of cops to go looking for a fight in a bar.

I believe the saying is: Instant a-hole, just add alcohol. Unfortunately, that applies to most of the population.

I am sure this thread will be closed long before we ever hear the outcome.

 

[Erik]

It would be difficult for Lazalde and Rector, if they are in fact CBP LEOs of one variety or another and carrying "on their creds," to violate SD law reference the carrying of concealed weapons without permits. CBP policy may be another thing. As usual, there is not enough information. No surprise, there.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

coyotehitman says:

"That doesn't apply to LEO's, Loomis."

I live in iowa. At my permit to carry course, the sherrif teaching it warned us about driving into nebraska. Apparently, two off duty LEOs drove into omaha for a weekend(omaha is the biggest city around except for desmoines). They were arrested and jailed and firearms confiscated by omaha cops. When they were finally released, the firearms were not returned.

The fact that they were LEOs made not one lick of difference to nebraska. iirc, the teacher's explanation for why this happened was because there is no reciprocity between iowa and nebraska. My memory is a little fuzzy on the details though. It could be they had been drinking or something.

Your teacher was wrong. There is no discussion of reciprocity in HR218 (LEOSA). It is a Federal law, which states that active and certain retired LEOs can carry concealed in ALL states.

 

[ilbob]

maybe the issue is that the grand jury said to heck with a grossly unconstitutional law (leosa). charge them and let the courts settle it.

i hope it goes to the SC and the SC says leosa is not constitutional.

 

[TexasRifleman]

i hope it goes to the SC and the SC says leosa is not constitutional.

Frankly so do I. If you're gonna do that for one group of people you gotta do it for everyone.

 

[FourTeeFive]

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/08/29/news/local/doc48b784e086e0d898298826.txt

Federal firearms act cannot be used in case
By Journal staff Friday, August 29, 2008

The Meade county grand jury that indicted a Seattle police officer for bringing a gun into a Sturgis bar in the early morning hours of Aug. 9 could not have used the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 to exonerate him, a spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Thursday.

Congress passed that law in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to exempt qualified law enforcement officers from state laws that prohibit the carrying of a concealed weapon. But because the legislation was never implemented by its rule-making agency – the U.S. Attorney General’s office -- the Meade County grand jury could not have used it in any case to defend the actions of Seattle policeman Ronald Smith, according to Carrie DiPirro, public information officer in the Denver office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Nowhere in America would that act have been considered by a grand jury, DiPirro said.

“The act was passed, but it’s never been enforced by the Attorney General’s office,” she said. Congress directed the U.S. Attorney General’s office to meet the conditions for its implementation – such as establishing the necessary databases and identifications -- something which DiPirro said apparently has never been done.

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act amended the federal criminal code to authorize qualified law enforcement officers (including certain qualified retired officers) carrying the photographic identification issued by their governmental agency, notwithstanding state or local laws, to carry a concealed firearm. That authorization is not intended to supersede state laws that permit private entities to prohibit the possession of concealed firearms on their property, or prohibit the possession of firearms on state or local government property. The law also would not cover any officer under the influence of alcohol and it excludes from the definition of “firearm” any machine gun, firearm silencer, or destructive device.

Smith and four other men were charged on two alternative concealed weapon permit violations. According to the South Dakota Secretary of State’s Web site, Washington and South Dakota do not have reciprocity of concealed weapons permits, but Attorney General Larry Long said Thursday he could not immediately confirm that.

“We’re not sure if Washington is or not,” Long said.

The grand jury issued alternative concealed weapon permit indictments for Smith and the others. The men could be convicted of carrying a concealed pistol without permit or failing to abide by a permit of a reciprocal state, but not both counts, Long said.

 

[TexasRifleman]

“The act was passed, but it’s never been enforced by the Attorney General’s office,” she said. Congress directed the U.S. Attorney General’s office to meet the conditions for its implementation – such as establishing the necessary databases and identifications -- something which DiPirro said apparently has never been done.

Oh that's gonna cause a bit of a ruckus

The actual law itself says the ID of the issuing agency is sufficient. This one will get wild....."legislative intent" and all that.

Worth watching, get popcorn.

 

[gc70]

But because the legislation was never implemented by its rule-making agency – the U.S. Attorney General’s office -- the Meade County grand jury could not have used it in any case to defend the actions of Seattle policeman Ronald Smith, according to Carrie DiPirro, public information officer in the Denver office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Nowhere in America would that act have been considered by a grand jury, DiPirro said.

That is absolutely amazing - BATFE is saying that LEOSA is effectively moot because the USAG never got around to issuing implementing regulations.

This might be an opportune time to resume the discussion that started when LEOs asked gun owners to "help us get ours first and then we will help you get yours."

 

[Nikdfish]

The text of the law is pretty clear. There is no contingency language making implementation dependant on any particular act on the AG's part. The unhandled implementation component is mainly in getting the individual states to provide the annual qualifications available to retired personnel! If LEOSA is not honored, I would think there would be grounds for appeal (assuming there was no intoxication that would obviate coverage... ).

Nick