Second Amendment: Suspended?

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2. What criteria gets you on the list? Can you be put on one of these just for sending an angry letter to the White house (non-threatening of course)?
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People have gotten on the list for far, far less threatening actions than that.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10084400&postcount=19

Remember, the original purpose of a watchlist is to check people out to ensure they're *not* terrorists. If that were the *only* purpose, then putting someone on the list for frivolous reasons isn't a huge deal; someone checks them out, sees they are on the up and up, and moves on. But when you want to ascribe criminal penalties to having your name put on a secret list, then we have a huge due process problem.
 
Feinstein declared. “If you’re too dangerous to board a plane, you’re too dangerous to buy a gun.”
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If you are too dangerous to board a plane, you're too dangerous to be walking the streets free, and should be in jail.
 
It now turns out that neither of the people who carried out the San Bernardino attack were on any list; they boarded planes to come here with no problem. Also, they didn't buy the rifles (I have not seen information on the handguns); another person did and he also has no criminal record and is on no list, so there was no reason to stop him. (I am not familiar enough with CA law to know if his subsequent private sale to the killers was legal or not.)

Of course we should know that most of the people calling for gun bans by list really intend to create a "loyalty" check; if you don't belong to the "correct" party, vote the "correct" way and swear loyalty to the president, you are a traitor to the country and can be imprisoned by presidential edict with no trial.

Jim
 
this article says from the text of the bill itself, neither of the lists is being referred to. It is actually some other unspecified list

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/09/Democrats-are-lying-about-their-gun-sales-ban/

So which watch list does the Democrats’ gun ban rely on, and why the obfuscation? The Democrats aren’t going to give anyone a straight answer, but we can go straight to the bill’s text (Senate version, House version). It turns out that the gun sales ban is not tied to the no-fly list, as falsely stated by the president and Clinton and numerous other people, including journalists who have baked this false assumption into their writing. But neither is it directly tied to the terrorist watch list.

We’re Keeping a Private List
Instead, the relevant statutory text links the gun sales ban to individuals who are ”known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof.” That language is cribbed from Homeland Security Presidential Directive/HSPD-6, which is what created the terrorist watch list (PDF). Thus, the bill gives the U.S. attorney general the discretion to decide whether a person meeting the terrorist watch list criteria should be prevented from purchasing a firearm.
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Aren't there a few kids under 10 on the no fly list?
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More than a few. Just having a similar name can put you on the list. I saw an TV news strory a while back of a couple deparately trying to get their 2 year old off the list, to no avail.

Neither of these lists has ever been specifically defined in a universal way that I have seen, so I am unclear. It is one think for private or even state operated foreign airlines to "discriminate" on certain basis when it comes to flying. Its another thing to maintain a "watch list" of domestic or foreign persons who are under suspicion, that does not necessarily deny them of any rights or privileges. It's quite another to use such a list by the US government to deny a US Constitutional right of American citizens on American soil without due process.

Irony is that those who favor using such a list to deny rights without due process would be the first to scream bloody murder about discrimination and Islamaphobia if a name such as Barack, or Hussein, or Obama got somebody kicked off a flight.
 
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I predict this will snowball unexpectedly for those who are pushing for this "terrorist" ban.
This is, after all, going to open up the no fly list and terrorist watch list to quiet a bit of scrutiny through the courts.
The first inevitable lawsuit will expose the unconstitutional and shadowy nature of the lists, and the lack of due process, notification for those placed on the list, lack of effectiveness in the lists ability to thwart terrorist activities, etc....
That list employs a lot of people, carries quiet a budget, and I bet they would rather not have all that attention.
I will be interested to see if this brings opposition from the inside, from those who maintain and supposedly use this secret list.
Won't make their "job" any easier if they are forced by the courts to "open the books" so to speak.
 
There are a number of websites or other sources referenced in this thread that are creating the mindset of black helicopters in some minds. I cannot imagine that there are many ordinary average guys on any of the lists referred to here.

My take on this is to ban those on any terrorist watch list or no fly list from purchasing or possessing a firearm.... period. If your on a list...oh well, get your congressman and other elected officials to help you get off of it.

I would also propose that a Non USC (including green card holders) not be allowed to purchase or possess a firearm as well. Firearms are for US Citizens period. Just try and purchase and possess a firearm in any other country as easily as some "legal alien" can here in the US...it is NOT possible.

We live in a changing world, in order to protect OUR rights, there will need to be changes.

Ok guys...let the flames roar...
 
I cannot imagine that there are many ordinary average guys on any of the lists referred to here.
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I know one person on the list from my last job. He was in his mid 20s, had never even been outside the U.S. and had no criminal history.

He flew for work regularly and found out he was on the list when he showed up at the airport and could not board his plane.

It impaired his job. Since his job required him to travel nearly weekly, I can't imagine that he is even still in the same position, if he was able to stay employed at all.

He was about 6 weeks into trying to sort it out before I left for another job. During those 6 weeks he wasn't even able to find WHY he was on the list let alone do anything to fix it.

I would propose that ANY list created arbitrarily by unknown government officials using unknown criteria for unknown people should be banned. Even some NSA people admit that NONE of the people involved in any of the terrorist attacks to date have been on that list... What purpose does it serve then?
 
And nobody would have thought the IRS would be used against regular citizens...

Any governmental agency is at the whim of a political master - and it appears these days those masters place politics over moral and legal right. Being denied rights, and being stripped of property, because of some person putting your name on a list - something the president supports and even calls for - is far removed from due process and is anathema to the foundations of our nation.
 
et2041 said:
There are a number of websites or other sources referenced in this thread that are creating the mindset of black helicopters in some minds. I cannot imagine that there are many ordinary average guys on any of the lists referred to here.

My take on this is to ban those on any terrorist watch list or no fly list from purchasing or possessing a firearm.... period. If your on a list...oh well, get your congressman and other elected officials to help you get off of it.

I would also propose that a Non USC (including green card holders) not be allowed to purchase or possess a firearm as well. Firearms are for US Citizens period. Just try and purchase and possess a firearm in any other country as easily as some "legal alien" can here in the US...it is NOT possible.

We live in a changing world, in order to protect OUR rights, there will need to be changes.

Ok guys...let the flames roar...
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You haven't been reading the objections here if you think people don't want this because they themselves are fearful of being on the list.

Approving of a system that suspends due process from the removal of an individual's rights simply because you don't feel it would Impact you or anyone you personally approve of is IMO foolhardy.
Not to mention the fact that there is literally no oversight of who and why they go on the list, and it's as easy to mistakenly be put on that list as someone checking the wrong box on a form. That's it. No double checks, just one persons opinion, or one mistake.

"Firearms are for U.S. citizens, period"
This statement is just...well, incorrect.
Firearms are for anyone who wishes to possess them and who are not a danger to themselves or others, period. The fact that other countries do not recognize this right does not negate that the natural right to self defense exists for EVERYONE.

As someone who has worked with people on a long term green card, who maintain a position in good standing with their community and contribute greatly to society, I will also disagree with you in that they have just as much right to own firearms for both hunting and self defense as you or I until, just like you or I, they commit a crime and are deemed unfit to use their 2A rights through due process by a court of law.

The 2nd amendment DOES NOT serve to define or limit who has the right to own firearms, it serves to limit the powers of the govt. to restrict them. It does not "allow" rights to us lucky Americans, it recognizes the natural existence of these rights for everyone.
 
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I cannot imagine that there are many ordinary average guys on any of the lists referred to here.
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I can. If I was on it anyone can be on it. The problem is you don't truly know how many people are actually on it. I can tell you it's enough of a hassle to cause some people some serious problems. Fortunately I've never had to travel for business. 30 and 45 minute delays were common for me so I always got to the airport about 2 hours before my flight. Even then I barely made some flights. It's a lot like being a minority and having the cops stop you for no good reason other than being a minority. Everyone who thinks it a good way to look for terrorists should be on the list. Personally I think it works about as well background checks.
 
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I cannot imagine that there are many ordinary average guys on any of the lists referred to here.
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what are you basing this opinion off of?...

.do you have some inside information of who exactily is on this list that the rest of us dont?...im going to guess not

so what does that leave, your intuition?....your gut feelings?....yeah all great reasons to for opinions on laws that effect millions of law abiding citizens.
 
Federal Air Marshals have monthly quotas. They have to issue at least one "Surveillance Detection Report" every month, even of no such activity was detected. So you would have them issue reports for stuff like a 10 year old kid taking a picture out the airplane window.
 
Sure - why not 'trade a little freedom for safety?' That almost never ends poorly and I'm sure that our competent overlords will protect us.
 
The list is a list of people who are suspected of something.

The idea that "officially" suspecting someone of something can be used to invalidate their constitutional rights is pretty impressively screwed up.

But, you have to admit it would be handy for the government.

"Oh, Frank? Yeah, we put him on the suspect list for X awhile back. That's very convenient because as an official suspect his fourth amendment rights can be ignored. We can go search his house without the bother of a warrant."​

"Bill keeps saying stuff on his radio program that makes me look bad during my re-election campaign. Let's put him on the suspect list for Y and then we can censor him since his first amendment rights can be ignored if he's on a suspect list."​
 
A constitutional right that the government can void without due process is no right at all.
 
Hopefully GOA or NRA-ILA will sue the crap out of this unconstitutional action.
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Might want to think about sending them some more $cash$ because they are already Knee Deep in lawsuits and could use your financial help.
 
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