Creature
Member
I have found this to be true...
Secrets and Keys to Snub accuracy?
- Thread starter hogdoc357
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I have found this to be true...
Doghandler
Member
PRACTICE... PRACTICE...PRACTICE...PRACTICE... (etc,)
Yes, but be sure you are practicing the right techniques. Otherwise you may make something wrong into an ingrained habit. You can find books and videos on basic and advanced marksmanship, and the basics apply to any kind of handgun shooting.
Obviously a .22 understudy can save a lot on ammunition costs, and don't underestimate the value of dry firing so long as you pay close attention to what you are doing. This is the best (and least expensive) way to learn and perfect sight alignment, trigger control and follow through. All are particularly critical when shooting a snubby.
Yes, but be sure you are practicing the right techniques. Otherwise you may make something wrong into an ingrained habit. You can find books and videos on basic and advanced marksmanship, and the basics apply to any kind of handgun shooting.
Obviously a .22 understudy can save a lot on ammunition costs, and don't underestimate the value of dry firing so long as you pay close attention to what you are doing. This is the best (and least expensive) way to learn and perfect sight alignment, trigger control and follow through. All are particularly critical when shooting a snubby.
beag_nut
Member
Hands down, a laser-illuminating "sight", such as Crimson Trace, LaserMax, LaserLyte, etc. Thus is eliminated the short-radius sight problem.
Here is a sub 2" group at 25 yards, fired with a Taurus 85 stainless from a rest. A snubby can be very accurate. Once you are doing your part to keep the sights true on the target, load is the next factor. I don't know of any gun that doesn't have preferrences. This is 2.8 brains of Bullseye behind a 120 grain cast boolit. I was working on light boolit loads in my Smith 52 at the time, and thought I'd try the load out of the model 85. My jaw dropped when I saw how accurate it was. By contrast the 148 grain wadcutter loads with 2.7 grains of BE (these will cut a ragged hole at 25 yards with my security six) sprayed all over the paper out of the 85. So load does matter.
As for adjusting the point of aim, I am using 2 methods. Since my 85 shot pretty darn high with 158 grainers, filing down the front sight wasn't an option. Fortunately the lighter 120 grain boolits shoot just right for elevation, so these are what I shoot. Lighter boolits will shoot much to a much lower point of impact than heavier boolits because of thier lower recoil effect.
Now for the horizontal adjustment, as can be seen, the point of impact isnt exactly center on this target, so I adjusted it by indexing the barrel. This is not for the shadetree gunsmith, as it involves turning the barrel in the frame. Proper jigs are necessary to avoid bending the frame of the revolver, but by rotating the barrel slightly, it moves the front sight enough to get boolits back in alignment with the sights.
I can bust 100 yard propane jugs with this load toe to toe with the long tube boys.
Enjoy!!
As for adjusting the point of aim, I am using 2 methods. Since my 85 shot pretty darn high with 158 grainers, filing down the front sight wasn't an option. Fortunately the lighter 120 grain boolits shoot just right for elevation, so these are what I shoot. Lighter boolits will shoot much to a much lower point of impact than heavier boolits because of thier lower recoil effect.
Now for the horizontal adjustment, as can be seen, the point of impact isnt exactly center on this target, so I adjusted it by indexing the barrel. This is not for the shadetree gunsmith, as it involves turning the barrel in the frame. Proper jigs are necessary to avoid bending the frame of the revolver, but by rotating the barrel slightly, it moves the front sight enough to get boolits back in alignment with the sights.
I can bust 100 yard propane jugs with this load toe to toe with the long tube boys.
Enjoy!!
sidheshooter
Member
There is some great advice in this thread. Not much to add so far as technique, but one think I haven't seen mentioned is ammo selection. I find that my snubs (36, 10, 12, SPNY, etc) all shoot to point of aim with 158 gr pills. A couple of them are horrible with 110 +p loadings. Within the "FBI" family I find that Federal's version seems to group well in my nub revolvers-all of which save for the SP come from around the same general time frame (even the newer SPNY is still pretty close).
My safe is stocked with revolvers-not just snubs-that shoot to POA with 158s; I've traded off anything that didn't. Needless to say, my safe is also stocked with 158 ammo.
At any rate, learning the short sight radius and relatively heavy revolver DA trigger is easier, IMHO, when you have immediate and accurate feedback as to shot placement, so ammo selection is also a concern.
Practice is king, but accurate feedback and analysis from that practice is queen.
JMO.
My safe is stocked with revolvers-not just snubs-that shoot to POA with 158s; I've traded off anything that didn't. Needless to say, my safe is also stocked with 158 ammo.
At any rate, learning the short sight radius and relatively heavy revolver DA trigger is easier, IMHO, when you have immediate and accurate feedback as to shot placement, so ammo selection is also a concern.
Practice is king, but accurate feedback and analysis from that practice is queen.
JMO.
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Rail Driver
Member
A laser is a (poor) substitute for training and actual handgun skill - The skills necessary to shoot a snubnose revolver accurately are the same skills required for any handgun shooting (with slight modification of method for SA revolvers and for autos).
beag_nut
Member
When it's dark and one cannot see the front sight, never mind both sights, how is a laser less than helpful?
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Well, I have noticed when it is too dark to see the front sight, it is also too dark to see what you are fixing to shoot.
A shot in the dark is a dangerous thing!!
So you use a good TAC flashlight to light up the target and ID it.
And then the front sight is easy to see against the lighted target.
rc
A shot in the dark is a dangerous thing!!
So you use a good TAC flashlight to light up the target and ID it.
And then the front sight is easy to see against the lighted target.
rc
I agree ^^^
In the dark, you need a flashlight to identify your target. That same light will let you see your now silhouetted sights.
A laser is less than helpful, as it gives away your location before you've identified your target and is slower to pickup on target than open sights when you can look through them.
The only time a laser is useful is if the shooter has a vision impairment than doesn't allow them of see their sights or if the gun is being fired when it is impossible to align it with the shooter's eye...like from behind a Lexan shield
In the dark, you need a flashlight to identify your target. That same light will let you see your now silhouetted sights.
A laser is less than helpful, as it gives away your location before you've identified your target and is slower to pickup on target than open sights when you can look through them.
The only time a laser is useful is if the shooter has a vision impairment than doesn't allow them of see their sights or if the gun is being fired when it is impossible to align it with the shooter's eye...like from behind a Lexan shield
kcshooter
Member
I also agree.
3 main points about them I stand by are
Some people call them a tool, I see them as a crutch.
3 main points about them I stand by are
Some people call them a tool, I see them as a crutch.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I thought all the same things about lasers.........until I tried one.
The advantage of a laser sight is that it allows one to make an accurate shot when circumstances will not permit lifting the handgun to eye level. This can be particularly important if the action going on is fast and at close quarters.
Also the best-of-the-breed laser sights do not prevent using the regular iron sights. The gun user can choose which of either they want to use in an instant.
In addition I have been told by several law enforcement officers that use them that projecting the little red dot in the center of a hostile subject's chest can result in a quick attitude adjustment, making the likelihood of shooting much less.
They are a useful training aid if one practices below eyelevel shooting at either waist or shoulder levels.
Also the best-of-the-breed laser sights do not prevent using the regular iron sights. The gun user can choose which of either they want to use in an instant.
In addition I have been told by several law enforcement officers that use them that projecting the little red dot in the center of a hostile subject's chest can result in a quick attitude adjustment, making the likelihood of shooting much less.
They are a useful training aid if one practices below eyelevel shooting at either waist or shoulder levels.
kcshooter
Member
I know the arguments for them, and if you want one, that is fine, but he's why I won't use one.
Sounds exactly like the old "racking a shotgun makes people defecate" line.
If the sight of a gun doesn't deter them, why would a laser? The gun is the deterrent, not the laser.
It's not a red beam, like in the movies. It projects a small dot only on the subject.
If they aren't looking down at the center of their chest, they don't even know it's there.
At that close of a distance, I don't need a laser.
Again, if they are too close for me to get my gun up, I don't need a laser.
I don't buy into this argument at all.
Sounds exactly like the old "racking a shotgun makes people defecate" line.
If the sight of a gun doesn't deter them, why would a laser? The gun is the deterrent, not the laser.
It's not a red beam, like in the movies. It projects a small dot only on the subject.
If they aren't looking down at the center of their chest, they don't even know it's there.
This, I agree with.
David E
Member
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If you want to learn to shoot your snub more accurately, ignore the above comments. If you artificially limit the guns potential, you also limit your potential with the gun.
Disregard any and all comments implying the snub is only good for a fight inside a phone booth/elevator/arms length. That's someone who hasn't mastered the worthwhile skill of snub shooting talking.
Are snubs more difficult to shoot well? Yes, but not exceedingly so. I scored a 97.4% on the 50 yd course with my S&W Model 38 before, outscoring everyone else on the range that day.
Ignore the "it's only good at 5 yds or less" crowd, pay strict attention to the shooting basics and, as others have said, practice!
Maybe, but in a "quick situation" at close range they will confirm where your shot is going, which may be better then simply pointing. Given the way the best ones are designed you don't have to use the feature if you don't want to. If you don't have one you have no choice.
You are welcome to your opinion of course, but the officers I discussed this with spoke from a position of actual experience. They had been there and done that, and strongly supported the use of laser sights in some (not all) circumstances.
kcshooter
Member
I understand that, and of course I can't invalidate it, but I have to go with my gut on this one.
Now, I'm not a cop, and beyond military service, have no real world experience in a uniform. So what my experience and beliefs are based in may not be relevant at the end of the day.
But my point is this:
If the officer drew on the suspect without a laser, does that officer (and you) believe that the suspect would not have submitted? Or does the officer (and you) believe that the laser, not the firearm itself, was the key to the suspect's submission?
This is based on my experience as a civilian who has had the firearm itself deter further conflict.
I still believe this equates to the sound of a shotgun racking myth. But, I admit, I could be wrong.
Hondo 60
Member
2. Reload your own ammo, so you can tailor the recoil.
kcshooter
Member
Good one!
Do they sell "reduced power" factory ammo? If you don't reload, that may be an option, if available.
I load.
I used lead bullets in my snub for many years, lead hollowpoints. My uncle used to load them for carry.
As far as lasers go, my LC9 came with one as it was the last one in the store. I find it to be of little use in a gunfight situation. It may work as far as intimidation, but if i draw, I am more than likelly going to fire in one movement,although I have stopped 2 incidents involving situations where my gun was already out, and didn't have to fire. Usually when you can see it coming, and have time.
I also took a "armalaser" off a gun becuse it distracted me, I found myself looking at the dot instead of firing. The laser exadurates your natural body movement, and can cause you to think you aren't on target when you are. They are also sighted in at a specific distance , like 25 feet. This is a miss at 30 feet or 10 feet, so I use my sights or if there is no time my pointing skills. I have always been good at point shooting in an emergency when there is no time to aim through sights, also using the front sight, "mine are all tritium" front sights. You should practice for weak hand and one hand shooting as well. If you have to take a cross body shot, it's much faster to use one hand than pivot your entire body. If somone is moving you will find using your front sight is the fastest way to hit them. if you can get the front sight on them at close ranges, 10-20 ft you will hit them.
I agree a flashlight is best at night to blind the aggressor, a good 200 lumen+led unit.
As far as lasers go, my LC9 came with one as it was the last one in the store. I find it to be of little use in a gunfight situation. It may work as far as intimidation, but if i draw, I am more than likelly going to fire in one movement,although I have stopped 2 incidents involving situations where my gun was already out, and didn't have to fire. Usually when you can see it coming, and have time.
I also took a "armalaser" off a gun becuse it distracted me, I found myself looking at the dot instead of firing. The laser exadurates your natural body movement, and can cause you to think you aren't on target when you are. They are also sighted in at a specific distance , like 25 feet. This is a miss at 30 feet or 10 feet, so I use my sights or if there is no time my pointing skills. I have always been good at point shooting in an emergency when there is no time to aim through sights, also using the front sight, "mine are all tritium" front sights. You should practice for weak hand and one hand shooting as well. If you have to take a cross body shot, it's much faster to use one hand than pivot your entire body. If somone is moving you will find using your front sight is the fastest way to hit them. if you can get the front sight on them at close ranges, 10-20 ft you will hit them.
I agree a flashlight is best at night to blind the aggressor, a good 200 lumen+led unit.
OurSafeHome.net
Member
Laser sights serve to illuminate how accurate snubbies actually are!
Loosedhorse
member
1. Smooth trigger pull.
2. Weak practice ammo (.38 midrange WC) to avoid flich; full-power ammo for one cylinder per session.
3. Ball and dummy drill to ID and correct any flinch that develops anyway.
(Not surprising: a lot of the above applies to a lot of shooting!)
1. Practice (see above)
2. Laser grip sights.
For me, laser grip sights on a J-frame puts me on target faster and with smaller groups than fixed sights.
Laser grip sights. Otherwise, choose you load appropriately for elevation, and you'll just have to do your own windage.
Not sure how many 25 yard shots any of us take (either at the range or in SD) with a J-frame. But if I had to, I'd much rather use a laser sight.
On the deterrent effect of lasers: Depend on it? No. Could it happen? Sure--just like a bright white light, shotgun racking sound, verbal command, etc. might deter an attacker. Why not have that possible advantage on your side?
Disagree. As it gets dim, it takes longer for me to become sure of my sight picture, and that happens long before it's too dark for me to identify my target. With iron sights, we're looking for equal light on either side of the front sight (try that against a dark shirt, even in good light), and I find that my lateral accuracy worsens as things get dim (but before they are dark). Also, there is a tendency (for me, and for others I've seen in classes) to start shooting high in dim lighting, probably because I have to stick the front sight up a bit higher to be "sure" I see it.
Of course, any youngins out there may have no idea what I'm talking about. Yet.
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kcshooter
Member
At 25yds, COM shouldn't be a feat of skill.
Loosedhorse
member
Not sure how many 25-yard shots any of us take with J-frames. Post corrected
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