Secrets and Keys to Snub accuracy?

[Striker]

Not sure how many 25-yard shots any of us take with J-frames

Quite a bit actually. I always practice out to at least 25 yards with my j frames (and only then because my primary practice facility is limited to that distance).

Why? Because the threat my well be out beyond the traditional 7-10 yards (ask me how I know this). If I can break contact/take cover I will, but I consider anyone with a handgun inside of 25 yards a threat that may well have to be engaged.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Old Fuff]

Absolutely!

There is no good reason that pocket revolvers have to be limited to 10 yards (30 feet) or less. The problem is that too many users come to believe this and don't try to exceed the limit. Others insist on using the powerful ammunition that's available in the lightest possible option in a weapon. Then they wonder why they're shots are all over the landscape. Common sense and focused practice will resolve the "point blank/belley gun" issue.

 

[Loosedhorse]

There is no good reason that pocket revolvers have to be limited to 10 yards (30 feet) or less.

I didn't say they "have to" be limited to shorter ranges; just that I suspect, generally, they are. And there's at least one good reason for "limiting them" that way: there are better guns for shooting at 25 yards and beyond.

J-frames are specialized self-defense guns, meant for concealment and ease of carry. They are not target guns, not hunting guns--not even standard-sized SD guns. Add to that the fact that usual SD shooting distances are short--SD shots at 25 yards and beyond are unusual, to say the least.

So, no, I am not sure that they are often shot over 25 yards. While I am sure there are (very vocal! ) aficionados like yourself who do so, I don't think either of us think you are the norm.

True: I suspect that if I say the .22LR isn't used much for SD, I'll get a host of objections, too, saying they absolutely can and have been used in that role. But that doesn't change the fact that most of us would not choose a .22 for SD, even though it can work...just like most folks wouldn't (and don't) choose a J-frame for longer distance shots, even though it can deliver them...

Especially with a laser attached.

 

[CraigC]

I can tell you right now that a laser will make the impossible possible with regards to short barreled handguns. I shoot relatively small targets out to 30yds with my Bodyguard .380 using the laser. Something exceedingly difficult to do with the coarse sights, short radius, heavy trigger and super light weight.

There is no good reason that pocket revolvers have to be limited to 10 yards (30 feet) or less.

People REALLY need to get over this misconception that there is this unwritten law that states all gunfights must be fought within a certain range. IMHO, this is more of an excuse not to build shooting skill beyond what is easy. Only problem with that is if you're skillful at 50yd shooting, anything closer will be easier. The reverse is not true. I've said this many times, the only time in my life that I almost had to pull my concealed weapon to defend myself, was against a wannabe biker with a rifle, standing 30yds away. I guarantee you, if it ever does go down, it will NOT happen when, where or at the distance of YOUR choosing. Prepare for all contingencies.

 

[Loosedhorse]

People REALLY need to get over this misconception that there is this unwritten law that states all gunfights must be fought within a certain range.

Man, tempest in a teapot time.

First there is the law of averages that says short distances are actually where most SD shootings occur. There's the laws regarding shooting at attackers armed with contact weapons, generally mandating that such shootings occur around 21 ft of less. There's tactical considerations (can I call them unwritten laws?) saying that I should be firing only at ranges where shooting makes more sense than taking cover and where I can put effective fire on target (not "suppressing fire" that endangers bystanders).

Other than that, no unwritten law.

...pull my concealed weapon to defend myself, was against a wannabe biker with a rifle, standing 30yds away.

It was a J-frame, I take it? Nailed him with the first shot, did you?

I guarantee you, if it ever does go down, it will NOT happen when, where or at the distance of YOUR choosing.

It is absolutely true that I may at some point be faced with a ridge-line sniper 200 yards away, and have to take him out with my J-frame .38...I guess. But I hope I bring a .308 and a lawyer to that party.

Prepare for all contingencies.

I'll take my Seecamp out to the 300 yard range this weekend. You never know...

Of course, being prepared might also mean having a gun with me that's more long-distance friendly than either a Seecamp or a J-frame.

We now return you to "Secrets and Keys to Snub accuracy?"

 

[Striker]

Three things come to mind.....I'm paraphrasing a bit here and can credit to only two sources:

"Run the gun you brung"

Clint Smith

"You never rise to the occasion, but rather default to you level of training"

Bradford Tillman

"A gunfight is not the time to be learning new skills"

Unknown (to me at least)


Bottom line is train the way you wish.....it's all good. But I choose not to box myself into pre-conceived notions of capabilities (personal or equipment).

As always, YMMV.

 

[CraigC]

Wow, Loosedhorse, that's constructive.....as usual.

It was a J-frame, I take it? Nailed him with the first shot, did you?

Where did I say that there was a gunfight?

 

[Loosedhorse]

Three things come to mind

You forgot "Use the right tool for the right job." If you want to be ready for a 25 yard (or longer) firefight, you might want to bring something besides a 5-shot snubbie. JMHO, YMMV--but I note that Clint Smith doesn't seem to carry a J-frame much.

But I choose not to box myself into pre-conceived notions of capabilities

You can join me for Seecamps at 300 yards.

Where did I say that there was a gunfight?

Well, we were talking about snubbies, and talking about actually taking shots at distance.

If you weren't using a snub, and you actually didn't have to fire (so the event was ended by presentation of your gun, not by decisive fire--and whether or not you would have actually hit your "attacker" remains unknown)...

"Where did you say that your comment was relevant?" Just Craig being Craig.

 

[Striker]

You forgot "Use the right tool for the right job."

Nope, see my first quote.

Well, we were talking about snubbies, and talking about actually making shots at distance.

Indeed we were, see my first post in answer to your musings about 25 yards.

 

[ghitch75]

six shots 12" steel plate @ 80y with this....can do it all day long....

 

[Loosedhorse]

Nope, see my first quote.

Okay, here it is: ""Run the gun you brung". Somehow to me seems different than "Use the right tool for the right job".

Indeed we were, see my first post in answer to your musings about 25 yards.

Why? Already answered (see my post #53 regarding your "musings.")

six shots 12" steel plate @ 80y with this....can do it all day long....

Well, not a J-frame, but certainly a snub! I have a real soft spot for .45 ACP revolvers.

 

[kcshooter]

If you want to be ready for a 25 yard (or longer) firefight, you might want to bring something besides a 5-shot snubbie. JMHO, YMMV

Yes, which is why so many people carry hi-cap long guns with them wherever they go. Oh, wait...they don't.
Since there was no mention of a firefight, I see no reason why 5 rounds are insufficient against one attacker.

You can join me for Seecamps at 300 yards.

Big difference in a j frame being effective at 25-30 yards and your ridiculous comparison here. At least your consistent.

Well, we were talking about snubbies, and talking about actually making shots at distance.

And his point, the one you seemed to want to miss, was that should he have needed to take that shot and only had a j frame, was that he was prepared to take it because he didn't buy into the "only good up close" mentality. Further to the point, you may find that you need to defend yourself at a distance further than the norm. You need to be able to make that shot should it come to that. The j frame is capable of this.
Even without a laser.

 

[David E]

most folks wouldn't (and don't) choose a J-frame for longer distance shots, even though it can deliver them...

No kidding???

As you said, people choose the 2" snub for convenience, not long range shooting.

Should a situation arise where one is required to take a longer shot than anticipated, he does it with the gun he has, ideally suited to the task or not.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Should a situation arise where one is required to take a longer shot than anticipated, he does it with the gun he has, ideally suited to the task or not.

That "Seecamps at 300 yards" line is going to be very crowded!

I think that you, Craig, and Striker probably want to open a thread entitled, "What is the maximum range at which you should regularly practice with your J-frame?" Or even (to contradict what I actually did say, instead of contradicting what I didn't) "Most people shoot their J-frames at 25-yards and longer, right?"

I'll wait.

But I think this thread might be about something else?

 

[kcshooter]

open a thread...

I'll wait until you post your targets from your Seacamp shoot.

 

[David E]

I think that you, Craig, and Striker probably want to open a thread entitled, "What is the maximum range at which you should regularly practice with your J-frame?"

NOBODY said to regularly practice at 25 yds or longer. What we ARE saying is the 2" snub is capable of making hits past 5-10 yds, which many ignorantly consider to be the maximum range of these guns.

If someone wants to learn the "secrets of shooting a snub nose accurately," they need to understand that the gun itself is accurate at distance.

If they can't hit a basketball at 12 yds, it's not the guns fault. Knowing that compels the serious student to perfect his technique further, instead of stopping, believing the gun itself can't do any better.

Practicing with a snub for defensive purposes, thats another thread you can start.

I'll wait.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I see no reason why 5 rounds are insufficient against one attacker.

I see: you can envision long-range gunfights, just not ones against more than one attacker. That's cool by me.

Big difference in a j frame being effective at 25-30 yards

Actually, what David E said was, "Should a situation arise where one is required to take a longer shot than anticipated, he does it with the gun he has, ideally suited to the task or not." He did not specify a distance, except that it was "longer than anticipated", nor a gun, except it's the one the shooter has.

So, why should we stop at 25-30 yards? What makes you think a gunfight will be limited to that? Is there some unwritten law...

And, gosh knows, if we are anticipating a longer range gunfight, we still have to carry a J-frame (not a larger handgun) because the only alternative you mention are "hi-cap long guns." I guess you are no stranger to the "ridiculous comparisons" you accuse me of, are you?

The j frame is capable of this.
Even without a laser.

Actually, guns by themselves are not capable of anything. It's the gun-shooter combination.

Which will most shooters be "capable" of: making your (arbitrarily chosen and improbable) 25-30 yard SD with a standard J-frame? Or making it with a laser-equipped J-frame? Or making it with a larger "standard" sized pistol?

If you feel all three scenarios are equal, well, I disagree.

And if you are so concerned about long distances, doesn't it make sense to go to a gun that will also make shots handily at (what?) 50 yards, or 100, or...

(You have said that my 300 yard distance is "ridiculous", but you haven't said what your non-ridiculous maximum SD handgun practice range should be. Waiting.)

 

[Loosedhorse]

What we ARE saying is the 2" snub is capable of making hits past 5-10 yds

When did I say it wasn't? Stawman.

they need to understand that the gun itself is accurate at distance.

What does "at distance" mean?

And again, the gun-shooter combination where we should focus, not the gun itself. The fact that the gun may do well in a Ransom Rest doesn't mean that the shooter can shoot as accurately with its iron sights as he can (after training) with a laser...or with a pistol with a longer sight radius.

If you are really concerned about some here learning about J-frames, you might want them to understand that they do in fact have limitations compared to other (larger) handguns, and that the short sight radius is one of those limitations. And that has consequences on their practical accuracy.

If they can't hit a basketball at 12 yds, it's not the guns fault.

If they can't hit a basketball with a J-frame at 12 yards with a J-frame, but can hit it with a 1911...

Now is it the gun's fault?

thats another thread you can start.

I knew you would decline starting a new thread to discuss these "important" topics. Believe me, I understood that you're only here to try to criticize me (via strawman arguments), not to actually make a point about distance shooting with J-frames.

 

[David E]

I see: you can envision long-range gunfights, just not ones against more than one attacker. That's cool by me.Why should we stop there? What makes you think a gunfight will be limited to a distance of 25-30 yards? Is there some unwritten law...

And, gosh knows, if we are anticipating a longer range gunfight, we still have to carry a J-frame (not a larger handgun) because the only alternative you mention are "hi-cap long guns." I guess you are no stranger to the "ridiculous comparisons" you accuse me of, are you? Actually, guns by themselves are not capable of anything. It's the gun-shooter combination.

Which will most shooters be "capable" of: making your (arbitrarily chosen and improbable) 25-30 yard SD with a standard J-frame? Or making it with a laser-equipped J-frame? Or making it with a larger "standard" sized pistol?

If you feel all three scenarios are equal, well, I disagree.

And if you are so concerned about long distances, doesn't it make sense to go to a gun that will also make shots handily at (what?) 50 yards, or 100, or...

(You have said that my 300 yard distance is "ridiculous", but you haven't said what your non-ridiculous maximum SD handgun practice range should be. Waiting.)

What does ANY of this post have to do with "keys and secrets" of shooting a snub accurately?

 

[Loosedhorse]

What dies ANY of this post have to do with "keys and secrets" of shooting a snub accurately?

That post of mine that you quoted is a response to another poster. The fact that most of his post was off-topic led to most of my response being off-topic.

Exactly like your posts, and my responses to them--which is why I invited you to open a different thread. So I repeat:

We now return you to "Secrets and Keys to Snub accuracy?"

 

[David E]

the gun-shooter combination where we should focus, not the gun itself.

Wrong. It helps to know what the gun can do. It is then up to the shooter to practice enough to extract the potential out of a given gun. If ignorant people keep advising that the snub is only accurate inside a phone booth, then the new snub shooter will stop practicing with it long before he learns of the potential.

I knew you would decline starting a new thread to discuss these "important" topics.

Didn't know it was extended to me personally. I'll consider it....

I understood that you're only here to try to criticize me (via strawman arguments), not to actually make a point about distance shooting with J-frames.

Wrong yet again. Read my posts. MY purpose in this thread is to simply enlighten someone asking about "keys and secrets" to accurately shooting a snub is that a snub CAN be accurate "at distance."

How far that distance is, is limited only by safety concerns, but 25-50 yds is a good place to start. If the shooter knows a snub in good hands can hit a basketball at 50 yds, then the serious student won't settle for basketball size groups at 10 yds.

 

[CarlJ]

I will practice at 25 ft. I will practice firing while backing up also.
That is all I did yesterday and found I am fair at that distance standing, but suck while backing up and firing fast starting very close.

 

[Old Fuff]

I will practice at 25 ft. I will practice firing while backing up also.
That is all I did yesterday and found I am fair at that distance standing, but suck while backing up and firing fast starting very close.

I suspect that the problem is that as you back up you’re looking at the target and not paying attention to sight alignment, and also shooting faster then you can recover from recoil. Experiment and see if I’m not right.

====================================================================================

The “secret” isn’t much of one, and that (as has been explained earlier) is to master basic marksmanship principals before you get involved in more advanced combat techniques. If you don’t do this you will find it difficult to shoot accurately, regardless of distance. If you do you will find that once you understand the bullet’s trajectory for your particular gun/ammunition combination you can affectively hit what you are shooting at, at surprisingly long distances, regardless of what (within reason) you are shooting with.

Back before the late 1980’s/early 1990’s when revolvers were the chosen handgun in most police departments, qualification courses often went out to 50 yards using full-sized duty arms. However it wasn’t unusual for officers to shoot their back-up/off duty .38 snubbies over the same course, and some departments required they do so over a similar but shorter 25 yard course. Doing either wasn’t considered to be an unusually outstanding accomplishment.

Those that succeeded had a common trait. They had mastered the basics, which at the time seem to have been more stressed then they are now.

Sometimes you will find out that there is a lot to learn from those who went before you.

 

[CraigC]

"Where did you say that your comment was relevant?"

My point, which was obviously missed, is that you CAN NOT assume that a gunfight will take place at a pre-determined distance. Or that a gunfight that takes place further than 7yds is somehow NOT self defense. Hogwash. My point, is that the one time in my life that I nearly had to pull my concealed carry piece to defend myself the aggressor was standing 30yds away with a rifle. Well beyond the distance at which most people practice, especially with pocket guns.

But I see that you're determined to derail the thread with nonsense so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Your "points," then, Craig, are (as I said) irrelevant to my post, and irrelevant to "Secrets and Keys to Snub accuracy".

Perhaps that's why your points were "obviously missed"?

the gun-shooter combination where we should focus, not the gun itself.

Wrong.

Well, always nice to know where we disagree, David E.

To me, you and Craig are both arguing against strawmen (you, that a snubnose can't be "accurate at distance"--which you now define as hitting a basketball at 50 yards (slow fire?)--and he that a gunfight will take place at a pre-determined distance, etc.) of your own creation. Enjoy.