Seecamp letter re:ammo READ!
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Chipperman
Member
Wow, I did not know that bullets could get pulled out that easily just from recoil. Ineresting.
(BTW, American is prolly the worst ammo I've ever had experience with.)
(BTW, American is prolly the worst ammo I've ever had experience with.)
nero45acp
Member
Is it possible to tell if a batch of silvertip ammo is properly crimped by visual examination?
nero
nero
aut2no
Member
http://www.seecamp32.com/
(this is 3 yr old letter from Larry to this dealer saying to avoid Hydra Shock)
Reccomended Ammunition for Seecamp 32 Pistols
I still recommend Winchester Silvertip for best reliability!
Per Fax received from L.W. Seecamp Company on 11/02/01 :
The LWS 32 was designed to use Winchester Silvertip ammo only but many other rounds have since been designed for use in the gun.
We continue to recommend Winchester Silvertip Ammo !
However, Gold Dots, Fiocchi and Glasser Safety Slugs should be safe to use in the guns with serial numbers higher than 031000.
NOTE : Avoid hardball and Hydra Shock which will not fit in the magazine and are NOT recommended!
_____________________________________________________
Now, from most recent letter in the first post:
<For this reason our ammo recommendation likely will be switching to Hydra-Shoks which I am becoming familiar with and seem to work flawlessly in the LWS 32. I have also heard Gold Dots work reliably and will investigate further.>
At the risk of being argumentative, unless there was a change in the Hydra-Shock cartridge, or the pistol magazine itself in the last 3 years, then how can one reconcile these 2 statements?
(this is 3 yr old letter from Larry to this dealer saying to avoid Hydra Shock)
Reccomended Ammunition for Seecamp 32 Pistols
I still recommend Winchester Silvertip for best reliability!
Per Fax received from L.W. Seecamp Company on 11/02/01 :
The LWS 32 was designed to use Winchester Silvertip ammo only but many other rounds have since been designed for use in the gun.
We continue to recommend Winchester Silvertip Ammo !
However, Gold Dots, Fiocchi and Glasser Safety Slugs should be safe to use in the guns with serial numbers higher than 031000.
NOTE : Avoid hardball and Hydra Shock which will not fit in the magazine and are NOT recommended!
_____________________________________________________
Now, from most recent letter in the first post:
<For this reason our ammo recommendation likely will be switching to Hydra-Shoks which I am becoming familiar with and seem to work flawlessly in the LWS 32. I have also heard Gold Dots work reliably and will investigate further.>
At the risk of being argumentative, unless there was a change in the Hydra-Shock cartridge, or the pistol magazine itself in the last 3 years, then how can one reconcile these 2 statements?
Just got back from the range
I fired 50 rounds of Hornady 60gr HP's and not a single failure of any kind.
I did fire 2 mags of Silvertip and had one failure. The next round to be chambered during fire was half in the mag still (back half) and the front of the bullet was flipped up above the barrel. This obviously caused the slide to jam.
I'm done with ST ammo, Hornady for me!
I fired 50 rounds of Hornady 60gr HP's and not a single failure of any kind.
I did fire 2 mags of Silvertip and had one failure. The next round to be chambered during fire was half in the mag still (back half) and the front of the bullet was flipped up above the barrel. This obviously caused the slide to jam.
I'm done with ST ammo, Hornady for me!
Snowdog
Member
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- Dec 24, 2002
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Jc2, I appreciate the effort, but I'm well aware of just how crappy AA ammunition is… several of the AA horror stories here and on TFL are from me (I believe the very instance I wrote about on this thread was what tipped me off a couple years back). That's why I pointed out I doubt they'd make the effort to improve their product by crimping.
BTW, if you ever find me carrying the dreaded "widow maker" 158gr LRN for defensive purposes, remind me to adjust my med dosage.
You'd think after realizing how lousy of a reputation they have, they'd make some push to improve the quality of their product.
BTW, if you ever find me carrying the dreaded "widow maker" 158gr LRN for defensive purposes, remind me to adjust my med dosage.
You'd think after realizing how lousy of a reputation they have, they'd make some push to improve the quality of their product.
Chipperman
Member
There are enough people out there still buying the stuff that they don't feel the need.
ajwharton
Member
This is the exact FTF that I was getting and that Larry eventually noticed. Tell me, were these the "new" STs or were they the "older" type? The newer STs have scored in the bullet tip for expansion, the older style the bullet has no scoring.
I've seen this malfunction first hand.
It was in a CCW class on range day and the lady shooting the ammunition was using a Smith Airweight in 38 special.
I dont remember the brand of ammo but the malfunction happened about 10 times throughout the session. I got to look at it up close because I was a range officer that day and was the first one to get to her when it happened.
The bad thing is, that when this type of jam happens, not only can you not pull the trigger because the cylinder is bound, but you also can't open the cylinder either. We had to use a wooden dowel and a hammer to drive the elongated bullet back into the case to clear the jam and be able to open the cylinder.
We inspected the ammo and you could not easily tell which round was faulty and which was good.
aut2no
Member
_quote_____________________________________________________
The newer STs have scored in the bullet tip for expansion, the older style the bullet has no scoring.
_______________________________________________________
250 rds of ST fired in my Seecamp purchased in June, only 1 stovepipe and that was first mag.
My second purchase of ST ammo I have now has 8 score lines inside the hollowpoint. I don't recall whether my first ammo had the score lines or not.
I hope this thread stays alive with others posting range reports on the other brands of ammo reliability in the Seecamp.
I seem to recall the manual for my S&W 642 (5 shot airweight) suggesting when using +P loads to fire 4 rounds and then examine the remaining cartridge for loose bullet. (a basis for ammo selection). I practice w/ standard loads, then usually shoot 5 +P's just to remind myself of what I carry.
The newer STs have scored in the bullet tip for expansion, the older style the bullet has no scoring.
_______________________________________________________
250 rds of ST fired in my Seecamp purchased in June, only 1 stovepipe and that was first mag.
My second purchase of ST ammo I have now has 8 score lines inside the hollowpoint. I don't recall whether my first ammo had the score lines or not.
I hope this thread stays alive with others posting range reports on the other brands of ammo reliability in the Seecamp.
I seem to recall the manual for my S&W 642 (5 shot airweight) suggesting when using +P loads to fire 4 rounds and then examine the remaining cartridge for loose bullet. (a basis for ammo selection). I practice w/ standard loads, then usually shoot 5 +P's just to remind myself of what I carry.
I recently shot around 10 rounds of the "new and horrible" Silvertip through my Seecamp, and the only problem I had was a stovepipe on the last round in the mag (I started with full mag + 1 in the chamber).
This doesn't concern me as I don't carry a reload for it anyway.
If I have further need for a weapon after emptying my Seecamp, I'll throw the heavy little bugger at 'im and then pull my Strider.
I also have some Gold Dots for my Seecamp, but didn't try them because they aren't really officially recommended.
Now that that has changed....
This doesn't concern me as I don't carry a reload for it anyway.
If I have further need for a weapon after emptying my Seecamp, I'll throw the heavy little bugger at 'im and then pull my Strider.
I also have some Gold Dots for my Seecamp, but didn't try them because they aren't really officially recommended.
Now that that has changed....
nero45acp
Member
Went to my favorite gunshop today and checked out their .32 Silvertips. They had 8 boxes of the stuff and all of them had the little expansion cuts on the nose.
Guess I'm going to have to scrounge around for some of the old-style Silvertips.
nero
Guess I'm going to have to scrounge around for some of the old-style Silvertips.
nero
aut2no
Member
just noticed the seecamp32.com site has just now put up the letter of Larry Seecamp on its website.
The letter is dated April 19, 2004. Too bad dealers weren't notified at that time. Never would have known this except via THR. I'm the one who informed my gunshop. In fact, when calling other shops to see who had what 32 ammo in stock, one dealer asked what gun is it for. Upon replyingwhy I need to change ammo, he doubted there was really a problem & said he would continue to sell ST to his Seecamp customers.
Could only locate Hydr-Shok.
The letter is dated April 19, 2004. Too bad dealers weren't notified at that time. Never would have known this except via THR. I'm the one who informed my gunshop. In fact, when calling other shops to see who had what 32 ammo in stock, one dealer asked what gun is it for. Upon replyingwhy I need to change ammo, he doubted there was really a problem & said he would continue to sell ST to his Seecamp customers.
Could only locate Hydr-Shok.
aut2no
Member
article on 32 ammo
While dated, it does point to Federal Hydra shok being shortened(hence fitting Seecamp) and interesting W/W ST comment.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_146_24/ai_61861518
The Resurgence Of The .32 ACP
American Handgunner, May, 2000 by Charles E. Petty
There was a time when the .32 ACP (7.65 Browning) was the primary cartridge of European law enforcement, and American manufacturers such as Colt, H&R, Savage and Remington, to name most of them, manufactured pistols chambered for the diminutive little cartridge. From the 1920s to the time of World War II, the .32 ACP was a popular choice for defense.
But the .380 ACP began to erode sales and, other than some surplus pistols that came back after the war, almost all American manufacture of .32 pistols was finished by the start of World War II.
New introductions of American guns chambered for the .32 ACP were gone from the scene until 1984 when the late Louis Seecamp began production of the tiny LWS .32 for which his name is now synonymous.
Seecamp had been making a small .25 ACP pistol, and it was a significant engineering feat to adapt it to the .32. The little pistol acquired an immediate following and probably became too successful. Demand far exceeded Seecamp's ability to produce guns, which meant that two things happened.
First, since the little guns were scarce, they achieved almost cult status and, second, prices skyrocketed as more than a few dealers took advantage of the demand.
Surprisingly, the rest of the marketplace seemed content to let Seecamp have his niche. Finally, Beretta came along with a competitor--the Tomcat--which is considerably larger.
We saw the brief appearance of the Autauga Arms. .32 and now from North American Arms comes the Guardian. It is a very close copy of the Seecamp, both mechanically and aesthetically, but there are some differences. Not insignificantly, the Guardian is slightly larger and heavier.
When Seecamp built his gun there was only one hollowpoint loading, the Winchester 60 gr. Silvertip. It was a marriage of convenience because the cartridge was about .010" shorter than conventional ball ammunition and Seecamp needed the room to make his gun so small.
By restricting the size of the magazine, he eliminated the shooter's choice of ammo, but that was okay. The Silvertip was just fine.
Actually, that wasn't always so.
Ammo Surprise
Shortly after I got my LWS .32, I had the opportunity to visit Winchester's East Alton, Ill., plant. I took the .32 along and when we had a spare minute, I asked to shoot some gelatin with the .32. Guess what? The little Silvertip expanded not at all.
Henry Halverson, the designer of the Silvertip, took a couple of rounds and left the room. He came back a few minutes later and showed me where he had cut some skiving grooves in the jacket nose. When fired into gelatin, those rounds expanded nicely.
Winchester apparently took the experience to heart, for several years later I was able to repeat the test with some new ammo and expansion was very good.
New Defense Loads
The little Seecamp created a demand for a good .32 ACP defense load. With the Seecamp acquiring cult status and other .32s coming along, the ammo companies went to work.
Federal announced they would make a 65 gr. Hydra-Shok; however, someone didn't get the word that the Seecamp magazine was shorter than standard and the first .32 Hydra-Shoks were too long. That has since been corrected.
Then along came a 60 gr. Gold Dot from Speer and, more recently, a 60 gr. XTP from Hornady. One of the reasons the Guardian is slightly larger is that it will accept standard length .32 ACP ammo, although all the new ".32 Short" loads will work in either gun.
The four different .32 hollowpoint loads were fired into calibrated 10 percent ballistic gelatin from a distance of 10 feet. Ten rounds from each were chronographed. The new North American Arms Guardian was used as the test weapon.
Three rounds were fired into each gelatin block to minimize waste, but with loads that produce relatively small wound profiles, this was not a concern. In fact, I was a little surprised at the small amount of expansion observed.
Ballistic Tests
We have to acknowledge that we are testing the ammo under just about the worst possible conditions. The Guardian's 2.2" barrel doesn't give the little bullets much room to accelerate and if we had tested the ammo in, something with just another inch of barrel, the results would have been different.
The velocities were remarkably consistent, but apparently not quite fast enough to promote the best expansion. This is more than just suspicion since the factory ballistics list a velocity of 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
Since expansion was irregular, I measured the bullet at the widest point and it is important to note that, although the Hydra-Shok did not expand beyond the nominal dimension, it was almost a perfect cylinder where the ogive area had opened up slightly.
This experience also points out a variable that is impossible to quantify. A few months prior to this test I did some preliminary shooting using my Seecamp as the test pistol. Even though it has a barrel that is 0.1" shorter, expansion was better.
This isn't a criticism of anybody's ammo or gun, it is simply a fact of life when you do this type of test. The results are not cast in stone. And I know it's not helping you decide what to put in your gun-- or is it?
There is some good news here, too. Penetration was more than adequate and that is the very first concern. If the bullet penetrates deeply enough to reach major organs, then expansion-- at least in small caliber pistols-- is a nice bonus, but not mandatory.
The other good news is that the Guardian functioned well with all the test ammo. There were no feeding or ejection failures during shooting, with one notable exception. Very frequently, the Guardian would trap the last case fired from the magazine in a "stovepipe" malfunction.
This is really one of those "no harm, no foul" things because if you've already shot all seven (6+1) rounds in the gun, a reload will clear the stoppage or, more realistically, it's time to consider another plan.
Cuss And Discuss
Now we can also cuss and discuss the wisdom of using a mousegun as a primary defensive weapon. I can't recall ever seeing that recommended by any of the authorities, but we also know that a lot of people do it every day. I know my old Seecamp falls into that role sometimes-- perhaps when I'm too lazy to put on a holster and gear up to carry something more powerful-- but at least I am following Rule One (have a gun). Having a small handgun that can go everywhere is not a bad idea.
.32 ACP Ammo Test Results
Load Velocity Penetration Expansion
Federal Hydra-Shok 65 gr. 826 fps 13.5" 0.31"
Hornady XTP 60 gr 827 fps 10.0" 0.41"
Speer Gold Dot 60 gr. 823 fps 11.5" 0.31"
WW Silvertip 60 gr. 812 fps 12.5" 0.38"
Results are the overage of 3 shots fired
at ID feet into ballistic gelatin.
The author, right, and his buddy Bob Bryant dig into the black of ballistic gelatin to recover a bullet. Note the lack of much of a temporary wound cavity (below) from the anemic .32 ACP.
COPYRIGHT 2000 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
While dated, it does point to Federal Hydra shok being shortened(hence fitting Seecamp) and interesting W/W ST comment.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_146_24/ai_61861518
The Resurgence Of The .32 ACP
American Handgunner, May, 2000 by Charles E. Petty
There was a time when the .32 ACP (7.65 Browning) was the primary cartridge of European law enforcement, and American manufacturers such as Colt, H&R, Savage and Remington, to name most of them, manufactured pistols chambered for the diminutive little cartridge. From the 1920s to the time of World War II, the .32 ACP was a popular choice for defense.
But the .380 ACP began to erode sales and, other than some surplus pistols that came back after the war, almost all American manufacture of .32 pistols was finished by the start of World War II.
New introductions of American guns chambered for the .32 ACP were gone from the scene until 1984 when the late Louis Seecamp began production of the tiny LWS .32 for which his name is now synonymous.
Seecamp had been making a small .25 ACP pistol, and it was a significant engineering feat to adapt it to the .32. The little pistol acquired an immediate following and probably became too successful. Demand far exceeded Seecamp's ability to produce guns, which meant that two things happened.
First, since the little guns were scarce, they achieved almost cult status and, second, prices skyrocketed as more than a few dealers took advantage of the demand.
Surprisingly, the rest of the marketplace seemed content to let Seecamp have his niche. Finally, Beretta came along with a competitor--the Tomcat--which is considerably larger.
We saw the brief appearance of the Autauga Arms. .32 and now from North American Arms comes the Guardian. It is a very close copy of the Seecamp, both mechanically and aesthetically, but there are some differences. Not insignificantly, the Guardian is slightly larger and heavier.
When Seecamp built his gun there was only one hollowpoint loading, the Winchester 60 gr. Silvertip. It was a marriage of convenience because the cartridge was about .010" shorter than conventional ball ammunition and Seecamp needed the room to make his gun so small.
By restricting the size of the magazine, he eliminated the shooter's choice of ammo, but that was okay. The Silvertip was just fine.
Actually, that wasn't always so.
Ammo Surprise
Shortly after I got my LWS .32, I had the opportunity to visit Winchester's East Alton, Ill., plant. I took the .32 along and when we had a spare minute, I asked to shoot some gelatin with the .32. Guess what? The little Silvertip expanded not at all.
Henry Halverson, the designer of the Silvertip, took a couple of rounds and left the room. He came back a few minutes later and showed me where he had cut some skiving grooves in the jacket nose. When fired into gelatin, those rounds expanded nicely.
Winchester apparently took the experience to heart, for several years later I was able to repeat the test with some new ammo and expansion was very good.
New Defense Loads
The little Seecamp created a demand for a good .32 ACP defense load. With the Seecamp acquiring cult status and other .32s coming along, the ammo companies went to work.
Federal announced they would make a 65 gr. Hydra-Shok; however, someone didn't get the word that the Seecamp magazine was shorter than standard and the first .32 Hydra-Shoks were too long. That has since been corrected.
Then along came a 60 gr. Gold Dot from Speer and, more recently, a 60 gr. XTP from Hornady. One of the reasons the Guardian is slightly larger is that it will accept standard length .32 ACP ammo, although all the new ".32 Short" loads will work in either gun.
The four different .32 hollowpoint loads were fired into calibrated 10 percent ballistic gelatin from a distance of 10 feet. Ten rounds from each were chronographed. The new North American Arms Guardian was used as the test weapon.
Three rounds were fired into each gelatin block to minimize waste, but with loads that produce relatively small wound profiles, this was not a concern. In fact, I was a little surprised at the small amount of expansion observed.
Ballistic Tests
We have to acknowledge that we are testing the ammo under just about the worst possible conditions. The Guardian's 2.2" barrel doesn't give the little bullets much room to accelerate and if we had tested the ammo in, something with just another inch of barrel, the results would have been different.
The velocities were remarkably consistent, but apparently not quite fast enough to promote the best expansion. This is more than just suspicion since the factory ballistics list a velocity of 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
Since expansion was irregular, I measured the bullet at the widest point and it is important to note that, although the Hydra-Shok did not expand beyond the nominal dimension, it was almost a perfect cylinder where the ogive area had opened up slightly.
This experience also points out a variable that is impossible to quantify. A few months prior to this test I did some preliminary shooting using my Seecamp as the test pistol. Even though it has a barrel that is 0.1" shorter, expansion was better.
This isn't a criticism of anybody's ammo or gun, it is simply a fact of life when you do this type of test. The results are not cast in stone. And I know it's not helping you decide what to put in your gun-- or is it?
There is some good news here, too. Penetration was more than adequate and that is the very first concern. If the bullet penetrates deeply enough to reach major organs, then expansion-- at least in small caliber pistols-- is a nice bonus, but not mandatory.
The other good news is that the Guardian functioned well with all the test ammo. There were no feeding or ejection failures during shooting, with one notable exception. Very frequently, the Guardian would trap the last case fired from the magazine in a "stovepipe" malfunction.
This is really one of those "no harm, no foul" things because if you've already shot all seven (6+1) rounds in the gun, a reload will clear the stoppage or, more realistically, it's time to consider another plan.
Cuss And Discuss
Now we can also cuss and discuss the wisdom of using a mousegun as a primary defensive weapon. I can't recall ever seeing that recommended by any of the authorities, but we also know that a lot of people do it every day. I know my old Seecamp falls into that role sometimes-- perhaps when I'm too lazy to put on a holster and gear up to carry something more powerful-- but at least I am following Rule One (have a gun). Having a small handgun that can go everywhere is not a bad idea.
.32 ACP Ammo Test Results
Load Velocity Penetration Expansion
Federal Hydra-Shok 65 gr. 826 fps 13.5" 0.31"
Hornady XTP 60 gr 827 fps 10.0" 0.41"
Speer Gold Dot 60 gr. 823 fps 11.5" 0.31"
WW Silvertip 60 gr. 812 fps 12.5" 0.38"
Results are the overage of 3 shots fired
at ID feet into ballistic gelatin.
The author, right, and his buddy Bob Bryant dig into the black of ballistic gelatin to recover a bullet. Note the lack of much of a temporary wound cavity (below) from the anemic .32 ACP.
COPYRIGHT 2000 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
aut2no
Member
Seecamp's jammed up
Well, I finally made it to the range to test out some ammo. I bought Gold Dots, Hydra Shok and Hornady.
Shot 3 mags of HdraShok - all beautiful.
Then first mag of Hornady, around 3rd shot casing came 2/3 way out of chamber - sortof a stovepipe. Pulled it out. (in hindsight should have stopped there)
I refilled mag with more Hornady and then on 4th shot the casing won't come out of chamber & slide is stuck. I've tried pulling back on casing rim with screwdriver, but this thing is in there solid.
I'm not going to pretend to be knowledeable on the mechanics here and I ignored the advice of a few at the range fearing damage to the pistol. I plan on taking it back to the gun shop and possibly shipping it back to Seecamp.
Technically, I violated the "Silvertip only" warning, but that has been thrown out the window recently by Larry himself. Since recent events precluded us from having any confidence in STs as a carry load, we are left to our own devices to experiment with ammo that is in the same OAL.
Any comments? I'm here to learn.
Well, I finally made it to the range to test out some ammo. I bought Gold Dots, Hydra Shok and Hornady.
Shot 3 mags of HdraShok - all beautiful.
Then first mag of Hornady, around 3rd shot casing came 2/3 way out of chamber - sortof a stovepipe. Pulled it out. (in hindsight should have stopped there)
I refilled mag with more Hornady and then on 4th shot the casing won't come out of chamber & slide is stuck. I've tried pulling back on casing rim with screwdriver, but this thing is in there solid.
I'm not going to pretend to be knowledeable on the mechanics here and I ignored the advice of a few at the range fearing damage to the pistol. I plan on taking it back to the gun shop and possibly shipping it back to Seecamp.
Technically, I violated the "Silvertip only" warning, but that has been thrown out the window recently by Larry himself. Since recent events precluded us from having any confidence in STs as a carry load, we are left to our own devices to experiment with ammo that is in the same OAL.
Any comments? I'm here to learn.
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