Seems this "1911" thing is popular...

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Nightcrawler

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Looking through my Gun 2004 Buyer's Guide, I count...and remember, they don't list the subvariants of each model, just the basic lines from each company...I count no less than 68 pistols that are based on or are clones of the M1911.

Of those, I think two or three have polymer frames. A small few are double-stacks. One is a long slide. Many are compacts. Three or four are "basic" models with spur hammers and no beavertails (odd, consdiering the other configuration is much more common now). Made by companies from Armscor to Wilson Combat.

I'm willing to bet many of these are built by gunsmiths at small companies from parts made by other companies (I mean, there's no way a small custom house has the materials to manufacture their own frames and slides.)

Interesting that the design remains so popular even after so many years. (Though Ruger and S&W remain the top US handgun producers.) I guess what works still works.

Though, I find many of these pistols ugly looking, but that's my opinion.

From looking at the pictures, the only shape difference between the now popular "beavertail" and the once-popular old style grip safety on my Colt is that the beavertail sweeps up at the end and the grips safety doesn't. They both have the same contour with the frame, and when depressed, the grip safety's rear face is level with the edges of the frame.

Maybe it's just the way I hold it, but when I compared the two in a gunstore I didn't find the Springfield "loaded" any more comfortable than the "Mil-Spec". (Less comfortable, actually; the Loaded's extended saftey bothered my trigger finger when depressed and the grips were ridiculously sharply checkered.)

*shrug* I guess I've got funny hands. (Good thing I'm left handed; when holding a pistol right handed I can never reach the magazine release with my right thumb without shifting the pistol in my hand. However, the long DA trigger pull and wide grip of the CZ-97 isn't the least bit uncomfortable for me.)

Anyways, though, if you like 1911 style pistols, these are good times to live in. You've certainly got your options!

Oh, the STI, the Strayer-Voit, and the RRA with the intergral optic rail all the way down the top of the slide get points for the ugliest 1911s, in my opinion. The "CQB SPEC-OPS 1911" gets points for going way overboard with the cocking serrations (I half expect to see a model with them all the way down the slide one of these days). The High-Standard gets points for managing to make their pistols look cheap and chinsy in a small black and white photograph. The Llama gets points for the dumbest company name. The Mateba 1911 gets the "for crying out loud, is everyone making a 1911 now?" award. Para ordnance gets points for having exceptionally ugly slide serrations (the slide is stainless, the serrations are black).

Just my opinion, of course. :D
 
Don't hold back - tell us how you really feel! :p

I admit I'm a 1911 guy... always have been... First handgun I ever shot, first handgun I ever bought. Can't imagine someone not liking them. When properly built, they are extremely reliable... they fire a round proven effective on soft tissue and are more ergonomic than any SIG, Beretta or Glock I've ever held. Good, consistant triggers... what more can one really expect?

And as to all the variety, if you are afraid of 8+1 rounds being inadequate, Para has you covered (as do several higher end choices) and if cocked and locked scares you, Para has an answer from the factory as well as the Cylinder & Slide SFS thingy. No such thing as too many options. If the 1911 has a problem, it's probably that it's so widely built by anyone willing to slap their name on one. SIGs are consistant because only SIG builds SIGs. With 1911s, someone that doesn't know what they're talking about can confuse the excellent Rock River Arms with the adequate at best Rock Island Armory.

Let the buyer beware, I suppose. But let the owner of a good 1911 enjoy it like nothing else.

;)
 
Maybe it's just the way I hold it, but when I compared the two in a gunstore I didn't find the Springfield "loaded" any more comfortable than the "Mil-Spec".

With that line, you just proved that you don't know what the beavertail is for. *shrug* ;)

(All those IDPA and IPSC guys are using them for a reason. If you don't hold the gun high enough to notice why, well, it's your gun. Out of curiosity, though, have you measured your splits with a high hold vis a vis your splits without? :uhoh: )
 
Not everyone owns their guns to play gun games predicated on absolute rate of fire. ;)

"Strategy [and gun shopping] demands that you know the difference between yourself and others." :D
 
...have you measured your splits with a high hold vis a vis your splits without? )
I'm sorry - I can't resist...

I asked something similar of a friend once, He called after shooting a Gov't model that belonged to his dad.

" I got two stiches in the web with high hold, never got bit before holding it my way". :p

He did fine and understood when he used a Caspian I brought next time out. I kinda felt bad and responsible for not explaining more of what I was trying to convey.

His "spilts" were about >--< each
:D
 
Sean,

Not everyone owns their guns to play gun games predicated on absolute rate of fire. ;)

Damn skippy.

The only gun game my 1911's are intended for is "AHHHHH!!!! HELLLPP!!!" Anything that doesn't make them better for that purpose is superfluous. Anything that does make them better for that purpose is cool, no matter how ugly or non-traditional it looks.

Why does your DE have a FLGR again? ;)
 
Why does your DE have a FLGR again?

I'd vote insanity. :evil:

I mean, who pays for a barrel that lets him (at least in theory ;) )shoot <3 MOA with a pistol so he can stick fixed sights on it? That alone kind of says it all right there. :scrutiny: :D

Oddity: I actually CAN shoot high thumbs with my spur-hammered Delta without discomfort. Of course, the grip safety only LOOKS stock, and alot of the spur hammer ain't there anymore. There I go again... where is the "smoking crack" smiley? :p

The only gun game my 1911's are intended for is "AHHHHH!!!! HELLLPP!!!"

Me too, but I wanted at least 600 foot-pounds to do that. Just because. Hence the fatty barrel that could double as a kubotan... :eek:

No accounting for taste, I guess, which is all I was sayin' to begin with. :)

bestdelta2.jpg
 
FWIW, I just tossed the FLGR out of my Baer Concept III the other day, and had my gunsmith grind down the humungous gas pedal on the left thumb safety. Having a 1911 I couldn't tote was beginning to bug me.

Plus, I get to feel all munificent for sponsoring my roomie the ex-Baer FLGR to replace the two-piece unit in his Springer Loaded. :cool:
 
Plus, I get to feel all munificent for sponsoring my roomie the ex-Baer FLGR to replace the two-piece unit in his Springer Loaded.

That sounds positively Darwinian. Not to start a theological debate... like we ain't already. :neener:

Incidentally, my next gun will be FLGR-less. Boring ol' .45 ACP with a bushing barrel. I know because I'm waiting on Caspian and Bar-Sto to deliver the big parts. :cool:
 
I suspect only the large handed who have no problem with stock grips and a long trigger are the only ones who have problems with hammerbite. i have never been bitten by a hammer on a 1911, and i've shot several bone stock GI models.

the only 1911 that really fits me, though, is mine, with short trigger, flat MSH, and thin grips.
 
I have big hands- in fact the 1911 grips seem a little small in my hands. I've handled a few with the standard grip safety and spur hammer, and could easily imaging the web of my right hand getting chewed up if I weren't careful. I ended up buying a springfield loaded model if only because it had the beavertail safety versus the milspec. I have to agree with Nightcrawler on the sharp grips- they make my hands a little sore after a shooting session, Imight have to replace them with something a bit smoother.

I've only had my 1911 for about 4 months, and still wish that I had discovered how good these pistols were 10 years ago.:D
 
Andrew wyatt,

suspect only the large handed who have no problem with stock grips and a long trigger are the only ones who have problems with hammerbite. i have never been bitten by a hammer on a 1911, and i've shot several bone stock GI models.

Have you tired choking up higher on the gun? ;)

I've been cut by a slide before, fer heaven's sake. :eek:

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I can shoot a std beavertail 45 as well as I can shoot one with the fancy memory groove..

Aint as comfortable though

WildbuiltforcomfortnotspeedAlaska
 
Geez Tam...all I did was say I didn't notice the difference. I hardly think that warrants the "call 'em an idiot and put the wink on the end so they won't think I'm calling 'em an idiot" reply! I didn't mean it as a personal offense to you!

If high holding the pistol helps you shoot faster more comfortably, fine! Great! Go for it! Is there really anything to argue about?

It's just that I've never heard anyone complain that the Hi-Power isn't a good defensive pistol because you can't shoot with your thumb up on the safety. I've not heard anyone seriously say the Sig P220 is a poor choice becase you can't high-hold it and you'll fire too slowly.

In any case, my pistol has a short safety lever; you can't shoot with your thumb on the safety anyway. But look on the bright side; sure I may be an ignorant trogolodyte who can't hold a pistol straight, but the money I saved by buying a stock Colt over a Springfield Loaded or Kimber I was able to spend on ammunition! ;)

As for the full length guide rod, you and Sean can argue about that. I've got no clue where the debate about the guide rods comes from. The pistol seems to work either way, I don't really see what there is to argue about.

But...I once started a thread wondering if the 1911 pistol wasn't for me; I didn't find the Springfield Loaded comfortable to hold when I examined one, even though it had all of the "comfort" modifications. I had people getting MAD at me because I questioned that the 1911 might not be the best pistol for me! :uhoh: (To be fair, I once had a Glock guy absolutely insist I was holding the pistol wrong when I didn't find the G21's grip to be comfortable. He, too, got mad at me.)

People can get awfully passionate about their gun choices.

Anyway, back to the myriad of 1911 pistols, I've got more points to dole out.

The Guncrafter Model 1 gets points for introducing a new caliber, the .50GI, and adapting the design for it (.45 Win Mag would've been cooler and more practical, but a .50 Caliber is cool too.)

The Bond Arms .450 AutoBond gets points for re-re-reinventing the .451 Detonics with their .450 AutoBond cartridge. (.451 Detonics, .45 Super, .450SMC, .450 AutoBond...)

And...finally, the Korth Revolver gets points for most expensive gun in the book. The list price is $8800 to $11000! :eek:

Nine THOUSAND dollars for a .357 Revolver? Hey Tam, how many pre-war Smiths would that buy? Geez...well, people pay $20,000 for Perazzi shotguns that won't really do anything a $800 Browning won't. I guess as long as someone out there is willing to spend money on something somebody will sell it to you!

Now, if you all will excuse me, I've got to go quest for fire... :D
 
Looking at Tam's holding pictures, and comparing it to my own primitive grasp on my pistol...

Aside from not having the thumb on the safety, I don't see much of a difference. If I hold the pistol as "high" as the frame will allow, and if my hand were any higher on the grip the safety lever would be under my trigger finger.

Your tumb doesn't touch the slide when you hold it like that, do you? Seems having the cocking serrations grating against your thumb everytime the slide cycled would get old real fast.

But it's okay. When I grasp it the way I do, my trigger finger is lined up with the trigger perfectly. The only reason I can't reach the safety lever is because it's on the wrong side, and I intend to remedy that eventually. The magazine release is easily manipulated by my trigger finger, as is the slide release lever. (I have stubby thumbs; I'd be having a hard time with both if I were right handed.)

Basically, my pistol fits me fine the way it is. The only discomfort from extended firing I found was the trigger chewing up a small spot on my trigger finger.

When I get so good that the lack of a beavertail his hindering my speed shooting, I might consider changing it, but that's going to take awhile. In the meantime I think the money is better spent on ammo than on gunsmithing (though I really need an ambi safety, I think). :D
 
NightC, I may not be a bigger idiot than you, I am just older idiot.

Personally, I don't do the high grip thing. It doesn't feel right to me.
But then I don't go around shooting timers. After all, the worst thing a timer has ever done to me is run too slow causing my pizza to get a little too crispy.

Those upswept safeties that are all the rage amonst the gotta-have-the-latest-gizmo people is not a real beavertail safety. Trust me I have seen more than my share of Beaver. The safety that came on my Government Enhanced is the classic Beavertail. Just rounded and extended enough to keep your flesh away from the hammer spur. Of course in over 30 years of shooting .45s I have NEVER been hammer bit. I guess my hands just ain't fat enough.

I tried that high thumb stuff for a while when it became the new thing to do. All it did for me was cause a Ganglion Cyst in my wrist. I seem to do just fine with my thumbs down together in the traditional location.

I agree with you on the ambidextrous safety. I prefer the Meusche Ambi. I have been using them since they were introduced by Colt. (around '79 or '80 I think)

I don't do to much foo-foo stuff to my Colts. I throw in an old solid steel checkered GI short trigger. A nice WIDE GI hammer (Swensonized of course). A flat STEEL mainspring housing. Currently I have a 30lpi checkered but grooved is OK with me too. I can't stand the wraparound rubber grips. It just throws off the entire balance of the gun for me. But then I have big palms with stubby fingers. People with long slender fingers seem to do better with wraparounds and long triggers.

I lower the ejection port and flare the magazine well. Lucky for me that was already done on my Colt Enhanced. I toss all of the MIM crap and replace it with solid steel. To each his own though.

I use only short JMB designed guide rods and plugs. Although I do add a shok-buff if the gun will run 100% with them. My current one does.

I am using the stock traditional beavertail grip safety right now because I haven't located an original Colt wide Commander safety, (dang Enhanced Government is cut for a Commander safety) which means the one I have won't fit properly. I don't use them for hammer bite since I don't get it, I just prefer them because it make the pistol more pointable to me. It helps snug it into my grip and makes it feel "just right". Which I guess is why some people prefer the upswept ones.

Other than that, the only thing I do that isn't strictly reliability related is to add a loaded chamber indicator.

Of course this is just what works best for me. I don't advocate that anyone else set their gun up like mine. However everyone who shoots mine remarks about how comfortable it feels. But then I guess I probably only shoot with other idiots who don't know any better.
 

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[thumps chest]

I'm older school than anyone!

I'm leaving the foo-foo frame and slide off my next pistol!

It'll be called the zeneleven. :D

[For those that are humor-impaired this morning: The above is a joke. :uhoh: ]

Nightcrawler, I didn't say that you were an idiot. I merely pointed up that an upswept beavertail wasn't designed to make the gun feel more comfortable in your hand in the gun store, but to accomplish a given purpose. BluesBear, f'rinstance, obviously attempted to shoot with a high hold, and it didn't work well for him. Cool. Shoot the way that you shoot best, but don't ever give up experimenting to see if there's a way to shoot better.

I guess what gets up my nose is the idea that "any mod or part that I don't do to my own guns is obviously foo-foo." Heck, I'm guilty of it; I still have a foo-foo FLGR in my Delta, and it's all Sean Smith's fault. :uhoh:
 
Sean,

I've actually been informed that my grip is not "high thumbs" but some kind of Modern Isosceles type thing. I'm so confused... :uhoh:
 
Splits

Splits? Splits....:scrutiny: Ain't that a thing that cheerleaders do?:p

I've shot high thumbs...high grip...Low thumbs, low grip. Beavertails, Ducktails, and standard safeties. Old style Commander safeties and with the newer dished-out type. I do about the same with either one, either style. In a UTYAIA thing, my "splits" would be two shots COM with about a half-second between shots...I believe they call that a controlled pair. It
will work well if you shoot well.

A little faster or slower won't make a helluva lotta difference. Neither
will the shape of the safety or a high/low, thumbs up/down grip, because
you'll do about as well as your worst day on the range. If your alligator
is shootin' back...you'll probably do even worse. If two alligators are
shootin' back, you'll probably get shot unless you're exceptionally
good or exceptionally lucky... but mostly lucky.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
I've actually been informed that my grip is not "high thumbs" but some kind of Modern Isosceles type thing. I'm so confused...

High thumbs is just sort of a general description of a kind of hold. Your thumbs are, um, high and stuff. :D

I've seen all kinds of stuff called high thumbs, including the thumbs being almost perpendicular to the slide. I don't think it is really clearly defined anywhere. :scrutiny:

Some interesting thoughts on thumbs:

http://brianenos.ibforums.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=5210
 
IMHO, the biggest advantage of a "well fit" beavertail is it helps guide your hand on a non-perfect draw, higher grip which translates into less muzzle flip(less felt recoil if you use the high thumb) and prevents your hand from being abused by the sharped edged, pointy frame and thin standard beavertail. I've never had hammer bite. All the modern handguns are "rounded" in the back strap for a reason.

If you shoot "bullseye" style, round some edges off slightly, low thumb(hold) I don't see a problem with the mil-spec style.

If mil-specs were the same price as "loaded" models I'd bet sales would drop off by half or more.

I'd also bet that if the 1911 didn't evolve into(with) the enhanced or loaded features the most 1911s you would see would be on TV movies. :eek:
 
I can flub up and miss with or without enhancements - :)

I am big on gun fit to shooter. Shooter needs/must feel confident in equipment. That "take of the physical 10 % and the other 90% is mental dealie". Be it for CCW ,competition, or plinking.

I'm the idiot that contours even moreso a Decelarator Recoil pad on a SG. I can shoot without, given a choice - I tweak fit to me.

My hands are a size 7.5 in a surgical glove, basically lean ( and getting more wrinkley I notice). I'm less prone to get bit with a Mil-Spec. I tend to shoot with whatever the jargon of today is...high thumbs and holding high up. Duckbutts do allow some "correction of hand placement"...if one gets started wrong, hands wet, or muddy IME.

Gun fit is individual. There is nothing wrong with looking good. Shooters skills learned, training, practiced with a gun that fits ,reliable with ammo and looks good is fine by me. I have no problem with the same in a ugly duckling either.

Hey I like skateboard tape - what do I know? ;)
 
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