Self Defense In An Apartment

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

I live in an apartment and I've always heard that a shotgun is best for defending yourself from an intruder. My Uncle, who is a long-time LEO in Arizona told me that years ago. So, I went out and bought a 12ga. shotgun.

However, I've since read where the bigger the gauge of buckshot the more likely that you are to have collateral damage (penetration of walls, etc.). Also, I practice often with my pistols. I've taken my shotgun out twice in the last year to shoot 6 to 12 rounds through it each time. So, I'm far more competent with my 9mm.

I guess what I'm wanting to know is, all things being equal, what is the best line of self defense in apartment living when facing an intruder?

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Some friends of mine live in an apartment where weapons are forbidden in the lease agreement so they have a big can of bear mace capable of spraying an intruder up to 30 feet away. However, my own choice would be a 12 ga. shotgun.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Ah, apartments forbidding guns. Don't get me started there.

Oh and I think I'd have to lean towards the subsonic 147gr round.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

If you're worried about over-penetration, size 6-8 birdshot out of the 12 would be your best bet.

Otherwise, any of the guns would work for self defense. I get sick of everyone on here acting like some 300 lb crackhead with marksmanship training is about to enter there residence and shoot up the place. A gun is a gun is a gun. They all kill. They all intimidate. People seem to forget this.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've taken a about half a dozen classes over the last two years and this question always comes up. The bottom line answer is that anything which can stop a person will go throught the walls. In my opinon, the shot is the best home defense course. If you have the money take a two day class. You will learn a lot. There is a good, heck it's great, website www.theboxotruth.com It is a retired LEO in Texas who has taken all kinds of ammo for all kinds of weapons and testing penetration. Very little writing and many photos for illustration. It will take three or four hours to go through it all. It's the best I've seen.

Bottom line is get training, watch your backstop.

 

[tactikel]

Feed your 12 ga #4 buckshot or Hevi-shot in the biggest size shot you can find- less penetration than 00 buck. If you can't have any firearm (I'd move) get a sword or tomahawk ( in close quarters as/more lethal than a firearm) and some training on how to use them.

 

[possum]

birdshot might actually be a really good option for you.

 

[sohcgt2]

In your situation I would say the 12g is your best option but I would avoid buckshot and opt instead for a turkey or goose load that will loose much of its power going through 2 layers of drywall. This would greatly reduce your liability for damage to nieghbors.

 

[dobrzemetal]

man that would suck to get shot with bird shot, although I dont know if it would kill a man. Then again, i've never shot anyone..I would just say use your 9mm if your good with it that way you cut down on letting things fly where you didnt mean to put them.

 

[stonyman65]

neither. .45 ACP all the way. shotguns makes too much of a mess, and I don't think the owners would appreciate pulling pellets out of the walls. 9mms are a little to small for my taste. and .22lr are nearly worthless in a defensive role... .22 magnums are another story...

 

[psyopspec]

A 12 gauge with 2 3/4" 00 buck will go through at least 6 interior walls.

Most commercial 9mm ammunition (both FMJ and JHP) will go through... at least 6 interior walls.

Given the above I would go with the weapon you feel most competent and confident in.

 

[Ash]

Bird shot. At apartment ranges it will kill handily regardless of what the nay-sayers say. Even if it doesn't, anyone peppered at 8 feet with BB shot is going to either crumple onto the floor or try to get away from shot number two. If shot in the face, the attacker WILL be incapacitated.

 

[todd_g]

I recommend #4 birdshot in high brass. The poor sap on the receiving end will just leak to death.

 

[sokygunner]

I would consider a few choices:
12 guage w/ birdshot or target load. From the distances inside an apartment it will stop anybody and it won't penetrate too badly. Plus this load shoots so softly that with minimum practice you can be fairly proficient and be able to make quick follow up shots.

12 guage with #4 Buck, a favorite of the Federal Bureau of Prisons for use on bus transports, impossible to miss with in a confined space, nearly impossible to survive, and doesn't over penetrate too badly, could even use the same size buck in a frangible load...now that would really work in a dry wall invironment.

9mm (assuming you practice and hit what you are aiming at) in a load that is either low powered and some sort of hollowpoint, frangible (it aint just for the range it makes a mess out of living flesh) or something like Glaser safety slugs which are made for just exactly your type of circumstances. Could go fancy and do the whole extreme shock route but its a little pricey. Corbon Power Ball ammo in 9mm is only like 90 or 100 grains and doesn't penetrate too badly either. Oh yeah, Federal makes their expanding full metal jacket rounds that perform about like powerball. Lots of choices really.

 

[eJack]

I live in an apartment and I've always heard that a shotgun is best for defending yourself from an intruder. My Uncle, who is a long-time LEO in Arizona told me that years ago. So, I went out and bought a 12ga. shotgun.

However, I've since read where the bigger the gauge of buckshot the more likely that you are to have collateral damage (penetration of walls, etc.). Also, I practice often with my pistols. I've taken my shotgun out twice in the last year to shoot 6 to 12 rounds through it each time. So, I'm far more competent with my 9mm.

I guess what I'm wanting to know is, all things being equal, what is the best line of self defense in apartment living when facing an intruder?

Perhaps a different way of thinking. If an officer were to enter an apartment during a burglary in progress, what gun do you think he would want to have? Out of the list, I'd go 12ga. At indoor range, pellet spread is minimal, and no lethal round will be stopped by the walls if you miss. The liability sucks, but the fact is, while the intruder can spray and pray, your ONLY acceptable backstop is your target. If you can't guarantee hits, you're better off with a bear fogger.

 

[Xyas]

Bird shot. At apartment ranges it will kill handily regardless of what the nay-sayers say. Even if it doesn't, anyone peppered at 8 feet with BB shot is going to either crumple onto the floor or try to get away from shot number two. If shot in the face, the attacker WILL be incapacitated.

Yes, you probably will kill someone by shooting them in close quarters with bird shot. But that doesn't mean you'll stop them before they have a chance of stabbing you or your wife.

While the shot that penetrates the CNS (through the brain as an example) will immediately stop the threat, your chance of that happening greatly decreases as the shot size decreases. Unless you plan on hitting them in the head (which can be hard in a home defense situation), shooting them in the chest with buck shot is your best bet. The reason being is that the bigger pellets have a higher chance of striking the CNS and instantly stopping the target.

As for the psychological component and them crumpling onto the floor, I agree it would probably work, but only if they're sober. If you get a person on PCP entering your apartment they'll basically go until their brain runs out of oxygen (say 5-10 seconds after you cut the blood flow off) or until their CNS is disrupted.

Will birdshot kill someone? Most likely, yes. Will they stop the person before they have the chance to harm you? Not as likely as buckshot would.

 

[C-grunt]

Dont use birdshot. Its for birds. We had a home invasion murder a while back here. The victims (3 or 4 of them, cant remember) where lined up and shot at almost contact distance with a shotgun using birdshot. 1 of them died. The rest lived to get medical aide that didnt come right away.

I have also seen a guy shot at close range in the arm with 12ga birdshot. I believe he had to have it amputated, but it effectively stopped the pellets from hitting him in the torso.

You cant have your cake and eat it too. Anything thats worth a damn for defense will go through several walls. You can punch through a drywall. The trick is hitting what you aim at. Will 00buck go through a bad guy..... possibly. But will it have enough power to then go through a wall and seriously hurt someone after..... probably not. Individual pellets dont have much mass.

 

[C-grunt]

Oh and also with the 9mm. Usually the heavy for caliber pistol rounds will penetrate more. If you are worried about over penetration, use a light weight high velocity round. Something like a 115 grain round from Double Tap or Corbon will usually open up more or partially break apart leaving a more shallow wound.

 

[scottaschultz]

Borrowed from another forum:

38 Special lead hollow base wadcutters do the best job of meeting all the criteria. Wadcutters are intended for target loads so they are very accurate and low power, thus minimal recoil. The bullet is designed to cut a nice clean hole in the target instead of tearing a hole like a round nose bullet would do. They do the same with flesh and create a nasty wound that bleeds profusely. Because the loads are quite light, you won’t get a muzzle flash to blind you nor will you blow your ear drums out like a more powerful load will do when fired indoors without hearing protection. Last, the soft lead bullet will flatten when it hits any solid object. Likely they won’t go through an outside wall at all, and will lose most of their power if they go through an inside wall.

Scott

 

[chieftain]

Let us see what the professionals and leading authorities on subject have to say.

From Dr Gary Roberts, leading Terminal Ballistics researcher in America today:

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

-- Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized; absent CNS hits, incapacitation is very frequently DELAYED until blood loss is sufficient to cause the onset of hypovolemic shock--this could be seconds, minutes, or hours...

-- If you are in a potential threat situation where you are feeling unusually suspicious, your senses are on high alert, you have "alarm bells going off" in your head, etc... if at all possible, it is time to employ a long gun instead of a handgun

Then there is:

Firearms Tactical Institute

Tactical Briefs #10, October 1998

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.




12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.
Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

And last but not least from the FBI:

he cogent advice by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU should be routinely heeded:

“Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible.”
and
“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.”

Put this all together with what the OP’s LEO Uncle told him about shotguns.

You have what is called a consensus about what to use for Home defense, in an apartment or house.

A shoulder arm, not a handgun.

If you think the professionals know what they are talking about listen, if not, you increased the odds for a for a ride with Darwin.

It is your choice. The choice of professionals, or do you prefer your rationalization on why you know better.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[crebralfix]

You need penetration to cause damage to internal organs. Unfortunately, this means that bullets will also penetrate walls. There seems to be little ground between penetration of flesh and penetration of walls.

Most people will tell you to go with a 12 gauge shotgun. I prefer the pistol for close in work since i can shoot with it close to the chest while moving. This makes the signature very short and easy to use in confined spaces. In the end, you should seek training in both to make a more informed decision.

I don't recommend the Judge at all. I fired one recently and its performance with 410 was pretty bad. Three buckshot at 21 feet spread over 12" (equivalent of two in the gut and one in the throat). Patterning...what's that? 7 1/2 birdshot, aimed at the nuts, put pellets as high as the eye on the target. Subsequent test shots were all over the place. I feel that it's too inconsistent with shotgun shells. 45 Colt shot dead center...at that point, just get another revolver in 45 Colt. Finally, the cylinder jammed up with the 410 rounds. I had to work a bit to get the cylinder open...and the gun was not able to fire until cleared.

410...nah.

22 LR...NO! While it will kill, the important part is the time it takes for the attack to stop.

You want as close to immediate incapacitation as possible. Unfortunately, you cannot buy that guarantee. It comes down to probabilities. What percentage of time does the round penetrate 12-18" in gelatin and far enough into the body to strike internal organs? What is the size of the permanent wound channel? How determined is the bad guy? How well have the shots been placed? How is the bullet constructed? Already, we're at a large number of variables. Focus on shot placement and buy very high quality ammunition. (sources: FBI docs on http://www.firearmstactical.com/).

 

[Ash]

I can show people who have survived being shot by any kind of round. But when kids might get hurt, you have to weigh options.

If I shoot you with 3 inch BB's or T shot, the vast, vast majority of attackers will flee or crumple. I don't care what is said by experts, so to speak. I know it is less effective. But most, the vast majority, of attackers are not the Terminator. Most people, the vast majority of people, will respond to such a terrible blast with a sudden and passionate desire to save themselves from continued blasts. If you are concerned that the first would not work (it will cause a reaction to the blast), you can include a more potent load if you want as a follow up.

If it is a home invasion, the shot will work. If it is an angry spouse, it will work. You cannot ignore the human element and the way people work.

 

[NJGunOwner81]

Your comfort is the key here!

I think the reason people recommend shotguns for home defense is because in the heat of the moment your not thinking clearly and your shot grouping expands. With a shotgun you are ALMOST guaranteed to hit whatever you're pointing at.

The only reason I question shotguns is their size. I love in an older (70s) smaller home and walking through the narrow halls and around corners ... I don't need someone grabbing the barrel and somehow getting it away from me!

HOWEVER, I am impressed with Taurus' Judge! It's a small package and, I think is ideal for close quarters fighting ... like a home or car.

The bottom line here is that you need to get what you're comfortable with! If you truly believe that you can hit the bad guy in the heat of the moment with a .45ACP, or a 9MM, or a 30'06 then use it! Whatever YOU can handle!

I have a .45ACP W/ JHP as a home defense weapon. Why? Because I am comfortable with that gun.

Hope it helps and I pray to God you never have to use it!!!

Take Care & Be Safe!!!

NJGunOwner81

 

[Volvit]

Is your 12 gauge a pump, semi, or single? IMO you might not have to pull the trigger. What is the worst sound an intruder can hear? A home owner working the action on a pump shotgun. Did you ever notice most home defense packages come as a pump?

Now I know most will ask, why isn't it loaded yet? [My feeling on it] In the heat of the moment you go to grab your shot and you mishandle the firearm and pull the trigger, that's a big 'ol woops that could do some damage in places it shouldn't.

22 and 410, if that's what ya got USE IT.

The 9mm, if you feel it is the best route to go, look into http://www.frangiblebullets.com/index.html

Clearly I'm for the shotgun if it is a pump. But to each there own.

-C

 

[psyopspec]

I think the reason people recommend shotguns for home defense is because in the heat of the moment your not thinking clearly and your shot grouping expands. With a shotgun you are ALMOST guaranteed to hit whatever you're pointing at.

Anyone who thinks this is relying on their shotgun to be a magical talisman rather than a defensive tool. At the ranges most of us would shoot for home defense, patterns aren't likely to open up more than a closed fist, to an open hand at most. Anyone trumpeting something like this tells me two things:

1) They don't shoot their shotgun enough to know how it patterns, which is to say they don't know how it will act under HD conditions.

2) They plan on missing, relying on a large pattern (which they won't have at HD distances) rather than accuracy. Planning to miss doesn't sound like a great strategy to me, but then I'm no expert.

What is the worst sound an intruder can hear?

Not to be morbid, but for someone with nefarious intent I can't imagine a sound more disheartening than the boom accompanying the flash. With home invasions today, criminals tend to come in multiples, they tend to be better-armed than the classic lone crackhead, and more and more will have some training. On the last, google around and you'll find that many gang members in recent years have joined the military just for the marksmanship/CQ training, then trained their friends on it when they return home.

So, let's say it's a home invasion with a few trained, armed assailants, and you rack your shotgun. You've just told them where you are, what you're armed with, and that you're aware of their presence. If you shout out a warning with that racking of the gun, you've also given away your sex (a female voice may sound like a softer target) and how scared you are. If you did it while in your bedroom, they know everything else in the house is likely fair game - to say nothing of material items, do your children have their own rooms in other parts of the hosue? As long as they keep one muzzle on your door, they're free to move about and do as they please.

Racking the shotgun may be great for scaring kids out of the pumpkin patch on Halloween, but I plan on using every advantage I can in the event of an intruder in the home. It's a fight, and I will treat it as such. However, I won't be at your gunfight, and YMMV.