Self Defense In An Apartment

[DMK]

Someone elsewhere on this forum once said, even a small child can put their hand through sheetrock. Do you want to bet your life on a round that can't even penetrate a sheetrock wall?

 

[Xyas]

If it is a home invasion, the shot will work. If it is an angry spouse, it will work. You cannot ignore the human element and the way people work.

You also cannot ignore the possibility of the person being on drugs, or being psychotic. A person on PCP is one of the scariest things I've ever seen. The mindset and feeling of invincibility makes them fear nothing and basically not drop until their cns is disrupted or the brain is without oxygen.

I know I won't be able to change your mind, but I want others that are on the edge to know that you can't pick the type of bad guy entering your house; you can pick your best chance of stopping him if you need to. Why put you or your family at risk?

 

[chieftain]

Put this all together with what the OP’s LEO Uncle told him about shotguns.

You have what is called a consensus about what to use for Home defense, in an apartment or house.

A shoulder arm, not a handgun.

If you think the professionals know what they are talking about listen, if not, you increased the odds for a for a ride with Darwin.

It is your choice. The choice of professionals, or do you prefer your rationalization on why you know better.

The rationalizations are simply amazing. Unprejudiced by fact. No doubt your vast CQB or combat experience is “better” than that of all of us with combat experience. No doubt.

Most people will tell you to go with a 12 gauge shotgun. I prefer the pistol for close in work since i can shoot with it close to the chest while moving. This makes the signature very short and easy to use in confined spaces. In the end, you should seek training in both to make a more informed decision.

But of course our hero knows better. Of course I would hope he can introduce me to ANY QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR that would advise using a handgun instead of a shoulder arm. You know the one he is getting that “training” from.

If I shoot you with 3 inch BB's or T shot, the vast, vast majority of attackers will flee or crumple. I don't care what is said by experts, so to speak.

Why? What do you know from your combat experience that they don’t know?

I know it is less effective.

Why don’t you quit while you are ahead. You just lost any argument you could possibly have.

If you are concerned that the first would not work (it will cause a reaction to the blast), you can include a more potent load if you want as a follow up.

Funny you didn’t use a more potent load in the first place. Just how much time do you think you are going to have? Obviously you think you will have time to try something you concede will not accomplish what needs to be accomplished, “stop the bad guy”.

I think the reason people recommend shotguns for home defense is because in the heat of the moment your not thinking clearly and your shot grouping expands. With a shotgun you are ALMOST guaranteed to hit whatever you're pointing at.

Nope, they recommend the shotgun because it is at least an order of magnitude more effective on target than ANY handgun. Particularly for CQB. (Close Quarter Battle, most often inside, like in your home)

The other reason is because they are professionals. Simply amazing.

Don’t clear your house by yourself.

If you have kids or loved ones you must defend, MOVE TO THEM, that doesn’t mean clear, that means move.

I have a .45ACP W/ JHP as a home defense weapon. Why? Because I am comfortable with that gun.

Hope it helps and I pray to God you never have to use it!!!

I hope so too. I have used a 45acp in CQB several times, and every time it’s only use was to gain me time and space to reload my shoulder weapon. Why? Because it, the 45acp, ain’t that effective.

Your defensive weapons are not there for your comfort, they are there to be effective.

Please folks, listen to the pro’s before you are forced to learn the way the professionals learned.

Use a shoulder weapon. Don’t plan to clear your home, know your ground (your home in this case) get the bad guy into your preplanned killing ground, and use the most effective weapons you can get your hands on to finish them quickly.

Don’t rationalize. If you can find an instructor that would agree with you, have them enter their opinions, names or schools name with their credentials here.

There is a reason that list will be very short.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Thanks to all who've so far participated. Also, thanks for the "Box of Truth" website. The information there was invaluable in helping me to make my decision for an apartment self-defense weapon. As for me and my house, I will protect my family with a shoulder weapon and a pistol as backup in the nightstand.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Now that I have decided on a shoulder weapon for self-defense in my apartment, what is the opinion of using a laser sight, good? Bad? Why?

 

[Holgersen]

Why is this in the handgun section of the forum?

We are talking about shotguns right?

 

[C-grunt]

I can show people who have survived being shot by any kind of round. But when kids might get hurt, you have to weigh options.

If I shoot you with 3 inch BB's or T shot, the vast, vast majority of attackers will flee or crumple. I don't care what is said by experts, so to speak. I know it is less effective. But most, the vast majority, of attackers are not the Terminator. Most people, the vast majority of people, will respond to such a terrible blast with a sudden and passionate desire to save themselves from continued blasts. If you are concerned that the first would not work (it will cause a reaction to the blast), you can include a more potent load if you want as a follow up.

If it is a home invasion, the shot will work. If it is an angry spouse, it will work. You cannot ignore the human element and the way people work.

Ash the problem is that if you are shooting an attacker, you probably want him to stop RIGHT NOW. If you shoot some crackhead pointing a POS .380 at you, with birdshot, he most likely will run away if not neutralized by the shot. But what if he starts returning fire as he is running away?

 

[NJGunOwner81]

Hey chieftain ...

No, I wasn't trying to make the point that my .45 is the most effective gun out there but that out of everything I have it would be the most effective for me to use in CQC.

If you could see the inside of my home you'd see why a shotgun would be very difficult to manage. Now if the family and I were barricaded in one room I would def. switch to the 12GA with the business end pointed straight at the door. But stalking through the house with a S.G. rounding up the family just isn't practical ... unless I had a sawed off.

I always suggest a gun your comfortable with because every gun you own is virtually useless if you can't make bullet to flesh contact. I just personally believe, and you may disagree ... that's okay, that being a decent shot is better than any gun. I'd rather have a .22 that I can hit the target with EVERY SINGLE TIME than a .40 or .45 I can hit with only 3 out of 10 times.

That's just MY opinion ... But please know that I do understand and respect yours!!!

Take Care & Be Safe!

NJGunOwner81

 

[jmr40]

I've come to the conclusion that an AR type rifle loaded with softpoint ammo is the best option with a handgun for backup. Since you are talking about patterns of around 2 inches with any shotgun load in the home you must aim either gun just as carefully.

The AR is smaller, lighter, easier to maneuver inside the home and has virtually no recoil. With softpoint ammo it will be just as deadly as a shotgun at close range and will penetrate walls and bad guys less than any pistol or buckshot load. Most LE agencies are starting to recognize this and is the reason for the trend to go to carbines in LE rather than shotguns.

The AR is also a lot more expensive, I realize you could buy about 4 good shotguns for the same money.

Shotguns are actually better outside the home where ranges are in the 15-50 yard range. Now you have a chance for the pattern to open up and be more useful.

 

[hounddog]

For those concerned about home defense and over penetration with a 12 guage. Ponder the following....

12 guage shell loaded with rock salt.

 

[UnTainted]

I'd say, based off the guns your poll shows that you have, you should get some Speer Gold Dot 115+P or 115 +p+

Though .223 is probably better for lessened wall penetration, according to the wall-o-truth.

The BEST, though is NOT missing.

 

[Xyas]

For those concerned about home defense and over penetration with a 12 guage. Ponder the following....

12 guage shell loaded with rock salt.

No, just no.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

 

[chieftain]

If you could see the inside of my home you'd see why a shotgun would be very difficult to manage. Now if the family and I were barricaded in one room I would def. switch to the 12GA with the business end pointed straight at the door. But stalking through the house with a S.G. rounding up the family just isn't practical ... unless I had a sawed off.

Why on earth would you be “stalking” through your own home? If you have loved ones to get to, GET TO THEM. This ain’t the bush, this is your home, your ground, own it. Moving around a home in low light, with other people you care about in the house, is going to be hairy enough in and of itself, if bad guys are in the mix too. How much time do you think you are going to have? Believe me the fight will be short, brutal, deadly and nobody is going to be respectful and understanding. Get your mind right!

What is your plan? Do you plan to bring the kids to your room, do you plan to fight from their room, where is your killing ground, is your wife or significant other going to help you fight, is she able to call 911, help with the kids etc…. This is the part that is unique to your family and home. The best part is a lot of this has no dollar cost, and only takes time. You have as much time as you need, until your home is attacked. If you know when that will be, you have a big advantage, plan accordingly. If you don't know when that will be, you must start preparing right away.

You picked a defensive weapon that is not very effective at it's appointed job. IT’S A HANDGUN (caliber really doesn‘t matter). AND you infer that your house will not allow a very long shot. So you will be in and at EXTREME CQB. That tells me that every shot and hit had better be as effective as you can possibly make it. That does not equate to a handgun of any practical caliber.

Do you know of any SWAT team or military SpecOps team that would choose their side arms over their Rifles/Carbines even in very small buildings? AND THEY DON’T KNOW THE GROUND THEY ARE GOING TO FIGHT ON/IN A HEAD OF TIME! Why some may ask? Because at these close ranges they want to put the bad guy down as fast and effectively as they can. That is why they use shoulder weapons, mainly rifles and carbines, and only go to their sidearm’s when everything else has failed. The handgun IS PLAN “B”. Even for CCW, we use handguns because a shoulder weapon is inconvenient, awkward and socially unacceptable.

(please Note: The police must concern themselves about shooting through walls and hitting “Innocent” folks too. They found that shotguns, rifles and Carbines frankly prevent that problem much more effectively than handguns. I will let the reader work on why. Assuming the reader has studied the earlier references I supplied in this thread the conclusions should be obvious.)

I always suggest a gun your comfortable with because every gun you own is virtually useless if you can't make bullet to flesh contact. I just personally believe, and you may disagree ... that's okay, that being a decent shot is better than any gun. I'd rather have a .22 that I can hit the target with EVERY SINGLE TIME than a .40 or .45 I can hit with only 3 out of 10 times.

How many times can you hit a moving target while you are moving (you are moving to or from you loved ones right), while being surprised in low light or dark etc…..? Think you can hit 3 out of 10 with your 45acp, I doubt you can do it even with a 22 handgun? I do know that your “comfort” will be effected either way. You had better make what ever hits you do get count.

Where did you get your training to do what you believe is "comfortable"? Where do you practice that?

[quote That's just MY opinion ... But please know that I do understand and respect yours!!! [/quote]

Many folks respected the French High Command when they built the Maginot line too. Didn’t help them when it came to a fight though. If you didn’t give a damn about the French (certainly easy to do) one could just be polite, respect their opinion and ignore what the inevitable result would be. Or one could be persistent until they understood the folly of their thinking. But that wouldn’t be comforting or respectful. Not withstanding at the same time fully understanding their problem.

My family and I are worth me being and behaving that way when the elephant arrives. In the fight that may happen, and the preparation and planning and practicing for it now. It is one of the “costs” of that fight, that I must pay before it happens. Just like acquiring the proper firearms, training, practice, mindset, tactics, reconnaissance, etc…. for that fight. I pay some of those cost’s now instead of later. And there are always costs. Both before and after a fight.

You had better understand and respect the fight you may find yourself in, at your own peril. This ain’t about going to High Tea with the Queen. God forbid you should wind up in that fight, I hope it goes well for you and your loved ones.

"Life is just as deadly as it looks. Fiction is more forgiving."
--Richard Thompson

“None are so blind as those that refuse to see”

It’s America, and every day someone is still free to prove that Darwin was right.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[boricua9mm]

There are two things I have not seen mentioned at all in this thread: Floorplan/layout of the apartment, and the construction materials of the building.

I once lived in an apartment with a straight shot layout. From the bedroom door there was a straight line to the front door. The building was made with a thick stucco exterior. Back then, the 12 ga with 00 Buck was my home defense weapon of choice.

Now, I live in a place where I've literally got people living in every single direction. The buildings are made from sheet rock, 2x4s, and vinyl siding. I now use my HK USP .45 with a Streamlight TLR-1 as my home defense gun. The distances are relatively short, and there are a lot of corners in my floorplan. This makes a shotgun difficult to maneuver without a huge risk of the BG being able to grab it. On top of that, since I've got people in every direction, I'm more comfortable sending a single 230 gr slug downrange with each pull of the trigger than several large pellets.

In my world, anyone who plans to use a firearm for self defense also needs to consider their floorplan, the location of other tennants, and the construction materials of the building they live in.

 

[HoosierQ]

12 gauge. You can load it with 2 3/4" #7 1/2 shot and really pack a whallop while minimizing wall penetration and downrange energy. Plus, if those little pellets penetrate, they'll spread out, slow down and heaven forbid they do get into somebody else's apartement, they'll take little energy with them.

All this and up close, at SD ranges, the effect on a dangerous intruder is still devastating.

 

[BCRider]

I just went through a shotgun course given by an ex-LEO. It was a more for fun and get acquainted with our shotguns sort of thing since up here using a gun even in the home for self defense is questionable and looked at with a VERY stern eye as to OUR legalities. However here's what I learned from this long time LEO instructor.

Yes, for medium ranges up to round 12 to 15 yards buckshot is the round of choice. But any pellets that miss are easily going to pass through at least 6 layers of drywall and still retain lethal ability.

For shorter ranges the bird shot from target loads also easily pass through the first wall and the second wall. The question of passing through the third wall is up to what distances have been covered and the tightness of the shot group based on the choke. But likely in any apartment setting they will easily pass through the third wall and retain much ability to harm. The plywood of most floors will greatly reduce this aspect if the shot is directed upward or down. Drywall isn't much more effective than cardboard after all. Studs and plywood does much better.

A 12 guage load of bird (target load) at close range will really mess up anything it hits. The first pellets puch a route for the following pellets in the column. They work as a team. It may not penetrate to a vital organ but it'll push the bad guy back like a baseball bat to the chest and even with a druggy will make them pause. That would give you time to advance and put a second load into their face or center chest from very close range assuming you don't freeze. At that point I'd be highly surprised if you need a third shot.

Based on the floor plate vs drywall we sort of got the idea that hunkering low and aiming up to receive anyone coming around the corner was a good idea. This means you won't be scouting out to investigate. In an apartment there really isn't a need to go out to the living room. Instead a cell phone call to 911 and hunkering down behind any reasonable cover to wait for the guy is the way to go. Let THEM come around the door where YOU have control over the engagement zone instead of walking out into what could be a mess. Nothing you own out in the living room is worth your life. Or at least it shouldn't be. Get 911 on the line and call for the police and then cycle your pump shottie in a nice loud way. There's something about the sound of a pump shottie that'll make anyone on the bad side of it pee themselves. Likely that alone would be enough to make the bad guys leave. Just be sure when you hide that YOU are not up against the wall common to your living room since we know that anything they shoot will go right through that wall unless they somehow manage to hit a wood stud. Hiding behind the bulk of your bed matress isn't a bad idea. Lots of stuff in there to help absorb a lot of energy. Or if you're really worried set up a significant hard point out of some form of furniture hideaway loaded up with stuff or reinforced with layers you know can stop some significant size of rounds.

So I vote for target load. At 10'ish feet it'll put most, if not all, of the load into the chest in a fairly narrow and damaging column. From there you leap up and advance to put a second round into the stunned bad guy from close but still covered vantage then retreat back to the original strongpoint to see what develops in case there's any more out there.

Howzatt?

 

[ugaarguy]

12 gauge. You can load it with 2 3/4" #7 1/2 shot and really pack a whallop while minimizing wall penetration and downrange energy. Plus, if those little pellets penetrate, they'll spread out, slow down and heaven forbid they do get into somebody else's apartement, they'll take little energy with them.

All this and up close, at SD ranges, the effect on a dangerous intruder is still devastating.

A 12 guage load of bird (target load) at close range will really mess up anything it hits. The first pellets puch a route for the following pellets in the column. They work as a team.

At 10'ish feet it'll put most, if not all, of the load into the chest in a fairly narrow and damaging column.

That's simply not the case. Birdshot makes ugly looking surface wounds. 5.5 inches in ballistic gelatin is minimal penetration - it's not even half the minimum penetration recommended by the FBI. There are plenty of handgun rounds that easily meet minimal FBI criteria. Why would you handicap yourself by using a round in a shotgun that has worse penetration than almost every load in standard service handgun calibers? Choose what you want, but let's not exaggerate on what any round will actually do.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023

 

[BCRider]

Granted it won't kill outright but the shock of the hit and the likely pain from the wide area wound is certainly going to stun the bad guy long enough to move up and take the second shot from even closer range where it can be more effective. And let's not forget that he's trying to set up something that won't zoom through all the neighbouringing apartments and cause serious possible collateral damage. I know it's not a term that many like to hear when it comes down to home defense but in this case I think a compromise is justified.

 

[chieftain]

Granted it won't kill outright but the shock of the hit and the likely pain from the wide area wound is certainly going to stun the bad guy long enough to move up and take the second shot from even closer range where it can be more effective.

Why?

Because you want it to? Or is it because SWAT and entry teams all over world use birdshot......oops, they don't.

Actually most teams are now using their carbines, because of all the EFFECTIVE loads and weapons available, the 5.56 NATO load with effective defensive ammunition penetrates less than anything else, that is still highly effective.

Good luck. I stick with #1 Buck in my shotties for social intercourse in the house, as recommended by the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

 

[deek26]

get a good shotgun don't use a pistol in a apartment,you could end up killing your neibour.

 

[sohcgt2]

Why?

Because you want it to? Or is it because SWAT and entry teams all over world use birdshot......oops, they don't.

Actually most teams are now using their carbines, because of all the EFFECTIVE loads and weapons available, the 5.56 NATO load with effective defensive ammunition penetrates less than anything else, that is still highly effective.

Good luck. I stick with #1 Buck in my shotties for social intercourse in the house, as recommended by the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

You seem to be forcing your argument for one who I am guessing is unfamiliar with all the considerations of the OP. There are many options including LTL options that are viable and deserve equal consideration to your suggestion. Just because you have chosen to use a shotgun w/buckshot in your home doesn't mean its the best option for everyone everywhere. The fact that is the choice for many entry teams doesn't hold up, as they also choose to have multiple backup personnel and usually support personnel (snipers, medics, etc) stationed nearby. All situations are different and what will work in a home where the nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away is not necessarily the best option when the nearest neighbor is only a floor, ceiling, or firewall away.

 

[Bass Killer]

Mossberg Cruiser 18.5" or a Glock 23,19 are your best bet's

 

[rbernie]

I practice often with my pistols. I've taken my shotgun out twice in the last year to shoot 6 to 12 rounds through it each time. So, I'm far more competent with my 9mm.

I guess what I'm wanting to know is, all things being equal, what is the best line of self defense in apartment living when facing an intruder?

You should use the weapon with which you are most familiar and most effective, and which possesses adequate power. My choice would be the 12ga stoked with low-recoil 00 buck; by your description, yours should likely be the 9mm. My carry pistols are 9mm, and I also load them with 147gr HPs.

Sounds like you're good to go.

get a good shotgun don't use a pistol in a apartment,you could end up killing your neighbor.

It has been proven over and over again that any round capable of reliably incapacitating an attacker is also equally capable of penetrating sheet rock and brick. Conversely, any round that will not penetrate sheetrock or brick will also prove unreliable as a defense round.

There are many options including LTL options that are viable and deserve equal consideration to your suggestion.

Anyone that willingly selects a LTL load (birdshot, for example) as their home defense ammo is frankly gambling in a way that I will not. I will always choose a self-defense platform/load that provides at least 12" of projectile penetration in ballistic gel, and I will practice to be proficient with it to minimize the possibility of collateral damage. My logic on this is simple - it does me no good to have avoided shooting into my neighbor's apartment (possibly hitting something, possibly not) by using birdshot or the equivalent if I wind up dead because my assailant chose real ammo and I did not.

Choose your weapon and ammo based upon your proficiency. I will not bet my life to any LTL or frangible load, and I would not advise anyone else to take that risk.

 

[ugaarguy]

You seem to be forcing your argument for one who I am guessing is unfamiliar with all the considerations of the OP. There are many options including LTL options that are viable and deserve equal consideration to your suggestion.

LTL isn't an option. If you're using a firearm you're using deadly force, and LTL deterrence has already failed.

Just because you have chosen to use a shotgun w/buckshot in your home doesn't mean its the best option for everyone everywhere. The fact that is the choice for many entry teams doesn't hold up, as they also choose to have multiple backup personnel and usually support personnel (snipers, medics, etc) stationed nearby.

Actually, if you'll read his post he stated that most entry times are actually using 5.56 carbines. All the snipers and medics in the world don't do an entry team a bit of good if they use ammo that won't reliably stop the threat they're going in to neutralize. The fact that we as armed citizens defending our homes don't have a medical team on site on standby is all the more reason to choose a load that is most likely to stop the threat.

All situations are different and what will work in a home where the nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away is not necessarily the best option when the nearest neighbor is only a floor, ceiling, or firewall away.

Minimizing the potential of penetrating into a neighboring dwelling at the expense of using a load which will not reliably stop a threat from killing or grievously injuring you is unwise.

 

[sokygunner]

I just want to cast my vote one more time for #4 Frangible Buck for the apartment dweller. One of the better blends of maximum damage upon contact with the subject, good spread pattern, and minimum penetration of walls. Again, just a sugestion, but in my professional opinion, a good one. Always be open to new a different ideas but think for yourself when it comes down to it, it is your A$$ after all!