Self Defense In An Apartment

[sohcgt2]

Actually, if you'll read his post he stated that most entry times are actually using 5.56 carbines.

Nope, they recommend the shotgun because it is at least an order of magnitude more effective on target than ANY handgun. Particularly for CQB. (Close Quarter Battle, most often inside, like in your home)

The other reason is because they are professionals. Simply amazing.

Minimizing the potential of penetrating into a neighboring dwelling at the expense of using a load which will not reliably stop a threat from killing or grievously injuring you is unwise.

I'll say it just one more time, if you choose to use an 18 inch cylinder choke 10 guage with #0 buckshot in your home that is fine, but if you have a neighbor 4 sheets of gypsum away I would hope you might consider their lives. That doesn't mean not to protect your own life. It means 3 counts of manslaughter and jail time for killing innocent bystanders while protecting your life may indicate another option might be better. Again, all situations are different and what will work in a home where the nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away is not necessarily the best option when the nearest neighbor is only a floor, ceiling, or firewall away. Possibility of collateral damage should always be part of the equation.

You should use the weapon with which you are most familiar and most effective, and which possesses adequate power.

 

[Grey Morel]

This is a hard situation you find yourself in.

The only options your going to have for limiting your liability will leave you with poor defensive weapons. The GOOD news is you can work around a weapons lack of power if you plan ahead.

In order to limit your liability but still have the ability to stop aggression from an attacker you will need to choose a weapon with the minimum penetration possible, but yet enough to incapacitate an attacker.

Having lived in an apartment, I don't think a shotgun is a very good idea. Even a PGO shotgun is still going to be very long for your needs. The shotguns only advantages in close quarters confrontations are the use of slugs and buckshot, both of which are precluded from use in an apartment. If I were in your situation, i would be looking at:

* GSG-5 Pistol - Very compact; penetration with high velocity ammunition will be sufficient, but would channels will be small. Shot placement would need to be precise. A compact red dot or reflex sight could help you complete this

* Taurus Judge - While the lethality of .410 pistols are quite abysmal, people often forget that is NOT what your looking for in a defensive pistol. Your not even looking for a "one shot stop". What you ARE looking for is a weapon that will allow you to shoot your attacker to the ground; this is the most effective way to stop the attackers aggression, and allow you to regain control of the situation; a double tap from a Judge will likely fulfill that role.

* VZ-61 - Same advantages as a GSG-5P, but with a small twist. Wound channels would be a little shorter, but slightly wider. Offers good capacity, and great maneuverability.

These options will run you from $450 for the GSG-5P to about $750 for the VZ-61.

 

[Dr_2_B]

12 ga. Everyone's gonna tell you not to use lighter shot because it won't stop someone. Still, even the heavier birdshot in the 12 (meaning the heaviest birdshot you can get) ain't bad up close and personal. I use #4 buckshot.

 

[ugaarguy]

I'll say it just one more time, if you choose to use an 18 inch cylinder choke 10 guage with #0 buckshot in your home that is fine, but if you have a neighbor 4 sheets of gypsum away I would hope you might consider their lives. That doesn't mean not to protect your own life.

No one here has advocated a 10 gauge of any sort. Of course collateral damage should be taken into consideration. However, you, and others have advocated using bird shot from a 12 gauge. Bird shot will not RELIABLY stop an attacker from killing or grievously injuring you. Avoiding potential charges is a non-issue if you don't survive the encounter. Yes, a compromise must be made, but if you're compromising away the ability to reliably stop an attacker you're planning to lose.

If someone forces entry into your home, and, in the course of defending yourself, you, God forbid, injure a neighbor then the person who attacked you is completely responsible. If that person had never broken the law and forced you to defend yourself then the neighbor never had potential to be injured. This is part of the disease of blaming victims which has grossly infected our society.

All that said, I pray I never have to use a weapon to defend myself. If I do, I pray that I never have to fire a shot. If I'm forced to send lead down range I pray that the attacker is stopped with minimal injury, and minimal rounds fired (I will still aim to reliably stop the threat). If all that happens I pray that there are no stray rounds, and certainly that no innocent bystander is injured.

 

[sohcgt2]

Of course collateral damage should be taken into consideration.

That was my point. Some others have suggested what amount to breach tactics and weapons, they have suggested handguns provide unreliable stopping power. I say .40SW or .45acp with an expanding bullet should work just fine in an apartment where your longest shot is 12 feet.

 

[Dr_2_B]

I think we often use codewords here. We speak of over-penetration as if we're talking about a through and through situation. The reality is that the problem is not through and through, but misses. While we all think we're better than average shooters, throughout history I'd feel safe in saying less than 50% of all rounds sent downrange hit their intended target. And that's being really, REALLY kind.

The box of truth is your friend in this discussion

 

[Deanimator]

For ME, the 9mm with the 147gr. Winchester White box is the best of the choices.

In my apartment any non-NFA long gun is close to worthless.

I won't use anything less powerful than 9x19mm for self-defense.

 

[ugaarguy]

Some others have suggested what amount to breach tactics and weapons,

Nope. No one has suggested a PGO 12 gauge with breacher's standoff, on a sling, ready to be dropped immediately so the operator can transition to a carbine.

they have suggested handguns provide unreliable stopping power.

The reality is that the best handgun loads come nowhere close to even mid level long gun loads when it comes to reliably stopping threats. The advantage of a handgun is in portability and on body concealability. Neither of those are factors in a home defense firearm.

I say .40SW or .45acp with an expanding bullet should work just fine in an apartment where your longest shot is 12 feet.

Why limit yourself to a handgun? Those rounds will penetrate just as much 12 gauge 00 buck. With a long gun you get three contact points - both hands and your shoulder - plus a longer sight radius, all of which help you hit the target more easily. Long guns, with even decent loads, stop threats much more reliably.

 

[Marshall]

Short and sweet.

Shotgun.

 

[okespe04]

12ga with bird shot.

 

[sohcgt2]

throughout history I'd feel safe in saying less than 50% of all rounds sent downrange hit their intended target. And that's being really, REALLY kind.

I think we all remember the professionals with the LAPD expending over 100 rounds in a residential area that resulted in the target being hit twice in the leg while more than one officer was wounded. I seem to remember the suspect was unarmed. I also know from statistics that most robberies, home invasions, and criminal activities in general occur during non-daylight hours. I know from experience that firing on a target in the dark is at best a crap shoot. Add to that a large dose of adrenaline and munitions designed for use at 50-300 yards and I still and will always think thats just a little bit of overkill. For ugaarguy and chieftain I hope the overkill isn't your neighbors son or daughter.

Nope. No one has suggested a PGO 12 gauge with breacher's standoff, on a sling, ready to be dropped immediately so the operator can transition to a carbine.

Really? I must have misunderstood what I read.

Use a shoulder weapon. Don’t plan to clear your home, know your ground (your home in this case) get the bad guy into your preplanned killing ground, and use the most effective weapons you can get your hands on to finish them quickly...Do you know of any SWAT team or military SpecOps team that would choose their side arms over their Rifles/Carbines even in very small buildings?... That is why they use shoulder weapons, mainly rifles and carbines...(please Note: The police must concern themselves about shooting through walls and hitting “Innocent” folks too. They found that shotguns, rifles and Carbines frankly prevent that problem much more effectively than handguns. I will let the reader work on why. Assuming the reader has studied the earlier references I supplied in this thread the conclusions should be obvious.)...
Actually most teams are now using their carbines, because of all the EFFECTIVE loads and weapons available, the 5.56 NATO load with effective defensive ammunition penetrates less than anything else, that is still highly effective....and from you...Actually, if you'll read his post he stated that most entry times are actually using 5.56 carbines

Thanks for your opinion, it means no more to me than mine does to you.

 

[ugaarguy]

I also know from statistics that most robberies, home invasions, and criminal activities in general occur during non-daylight hours. I know from experience that firing on a target in the dark is at best a crap shoot.

Gee-whiz, I never thought of that. I mean why else would I have gone to the trouble of mounting a light to my carbine? No that I'd use it to ID my target before shooting, unlike you, who will apparently fire into the dark at anything you think might be a threat.

Add to that a large dose of adrenaline and munitions designed for use at 50-300 yards and I still and will always think thats just a little bit of overkill. For ugaarguy and chieftain I hope the overkill isn't your neighbors son or daughter.

It doesn't matter what range they were originally intended for. Ballistic testing has proven that the common handgun rounds you advocate penetrate drywall just as much as common 12 gauge 00 buck shot, and more than 5.56 ballistic tip and soft point loads. Again, a long gun is much more likely to stop a threat than a handgun, and with proper load selection (common hunting & SD loads, not military surplus ammo) will penetrate drywall no more than common SD handgun loads. Further, shoulder fired weapons - with their three points of contact, better sights, and longer sight radius - are easier to fire accurately under stress.

Nope. No one has suggested a PGO 12 gauge with breacher's standoff, on a sling, ready to be dropped immediately so the operator can transition to a carbine.

Really? I must have misunderstood what I read.

Use a shoulder weapon. Don’t plan to clear your home, know your ground (your home in this case) get the bad guy into your preplanned killing ground, and use the most effective weapons you can get your hands on to finish them quickly...Do you know of any SWAT team or military SpecOps team that would choose their side arms over their Rifles/Carbines even in very small buildings?... That is why they use shoulder weapons, mainly rifles and carbines...(please Note: The police must concern themselves about shooting through walls and hitting “Innocent” folks too. They found that shotguns, rifles and Carbines frankly prevent that problem much more effectively than handguns. I will let the reader work on why. Assuming the reader has studied the earlier references I supplied in this thread the conclusions should be obvious.)...
Actually most teams are now using their carbines, because of all the EFFECTIVE loads and weapons available, the 5.56 NATO load with effective defensive ammunition penetrates less than anything else, that is still highly effective

....and from you...

Actually, if you'll read his post he stated that most entry times are actually using 5.56 carbine

Thanks for your opinion, it means no more to me than mine does to you.

You did misunderstand. The whole time Chieftan put an emphasis on shoulder weapons, not PGO shotguns. You're welcome to your opinion, but your opinion does not agree with modern ballistic testing, and current tools & techniques used by professionals. Chieftan has survived gun fights. I've had some combat training from the USAF (I was in a high ops tempo, rapid mobilization ready unit, and we were trained to secure our equipment). Even in the tight quarters of mobile comm-electronics structures we were issued rifles. Knowing that at some point I might have to defend my life I also sought out the advice of men like Chieftan who've survived multiple gun fights (folks like a close family member who's a Vietnam 7th Cav vet and career LEO). I've yet to meet a man who's survived a gun fight who doesn't advocate long guns. Some have survived with them pistols, but none have advocated taking a pistol to a gun fight. Use what you're confident with, but don't tell me I'm more likely to harm an innocent person by using a long gun when my training tells me differently.

 

[rbernie]

As much as I agree with the notion that a long gun is almost always more appropriate than a handgun, I will have to suggest that the handgun is more appropriate in this case simply because of its familiarity. There seems little value in recommending a shotgun (which would be my choice) if the user is not familiar and proficient in its use, nor likely to gain that proficiency.

I would prefer that RAMI make the committment to get proficient with the shotgun, but... <shrug>

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'll say it just one more time, if you choose to use an 18 inch cylinder choke 10 guage with #0 buckshot in your home that is fine, but if you have a neighbor 4 sheets of gypsum away I would hope you might consider their lives.

Anything that will effectively stop an attacker is going to sail right through 4 sheets of gypsum, including the .40 and .45 JHP you recommended in a later post. Something that will not penetrate 4 sheets of gypsum is very unlikely to cause a physiological stop in an attacker.

The key factor in any of this is to stop the attacker as quickly as possible by making good, effective hits. This is why training is more important than cool gear. However, unless you have a really disproportionate amount of training on a handgun, a longgun maximizes your ability to make good hits and usually provides for better, more effective hits as well.

 

[meytind]

Any round capable of stopping a human being will pierce multiple walls if you miss. Just check out the http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm, he's tested many popular types of rounds against the kind of walls you'd see in the average home. The key is to hit your target.

 

[sohcgt2]

Three degrees of spread with buckshot vs. zero degrees of spread with any single projectile. Better chance to hit something w/buckshot vs. need to aim and squeeze with any single projectile. Thanks for your opinion, it means no more to me than mine does to you.

 

[ugaarguy]

Three degrees of spread with buckshot vs. zero degrees of spread with any single projectile. Better chance to hit something w/buckshot vs. need to aim and squeeze with any single projectile.

So are you advocating buckshot as being easier to hit a target with, or easier to miss a target with?

 

[ZombieKiller]

I think we all know the obvious answer here... .50 BMG!!!

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Whoever first said 12 gauge with no. 6 birdshot was right on the money. Make that an 18-inch barreled 12 gauge, and practice with it. For folks who may be a tad shy on recoil/muzzle blast, a 20 gauge will work just as well. I actually have one of each ready to rock at home... in different rooms... charged with small buckshot rather than birdshot. (I'm not in an apartment... and smaller buckshot actually gives you more lead on target per charge than good ol' double oh, but I digress). I also have an H&K P2000 in 40 S&W by the bed, but that's just the weapon I'll use to go get one of the shotguns if there's time.

By the way, whoever was worried about giving their position away by racking a slide... I have to say that the intimidation factor far outweighs that concern in my book, especially for anyone living in a relatively small apartment where the bad guys probably already have a good idea of where you may be. I know it works because I DID it... scared away a would-be burglar many years ago when I lived in a smaller house. I heard him coming over the back fence on a hot summer night... and I simply walked into the kitchen... waited until I could hear him outside the kitchen door... and racked the slide. All I heard after that was him flinging himself back over the fence and the sound of beating feet.

 

[sohcgt2]

So are you advocating buckshot as being easier to hit a target with, or easier to miss a target with?

Both. A standard 00 buck load in 12g has 9 pellets .330, 9 projectiles downrange spreading at a constant rate. My math is a little fuzzy but I think that means 9 times more likely to hit something, not necesarily 9 times more likely to hit the intended target. In a CQB situation I would think its no more likely to hit the intended target. Trained shooters often miss at point blank range. I think we all remember the professionals with the LAPD expending over 100 rounds in a residential area that resulted in the target being hit twice in the leg while more than one officer was wounded.

 

[ugaarguy]

Both. A standard 00 buck load in 12g has 9 pellets .330, 9 projectiles downrange spreading at a constant rate.

There are far too many variables to ever come up with a constant rate. Within the shell itself we have to look at how hard of alloy the shot is, whether or not it's plated, whether or not it's buffered, what type of crimp, what type of wad. Next, we have to look at bbl length, forcing cone length, choke, and individual barrel behavior. This is why good shotgunners pattern loads through the shotgun configured as it will be for the task at hand. I'll have to dig up my old targets, but my 870P with 18" IC choked bbl using Hornady TAP FPD or Federal Premium 9 pellet 00 shoots some very tight patterns.

My math is a little fuzzy but I think that means 9 times more likely to hit something, not necesarily 9 times more likely to hit the intended target.

If a load that patterns well is used every pellet is going to hit the target if your aim is true. If you miss all the pellets are going to the same general place too.

In a CQB situation I would think its no more likely to hit the intended target.

I agree, and I disagree. I'm not relying on spread to hit my target. I'm relying on tight patterns to keep all the pellets on my target.

Trained shooters often miss at point blank range.

Which is all the more reason to use a shoulder a fired weapon, because shoulder fired weapons are easier to aim and fire accurately under stress.

 

[eJack]

By the way, whoever was worried about giving their position away by racking a slide... I have to say that the intimidation factor far outweighs that concern in my book, especially for anyone living in a relatively small apartment where the bad guys probably already have a good idea of where you may be. I know it works because I DID it... scared away a would-be burglar many years ago when I lived in a smaller house. I heard him coming over the back fence on a hot summer night... and I simply walked into the kitchen... waited until I could hear him outside the kitchen door... and racked the slide. All I heard after that was him flinging himself back over the fence and the sound of beating feet.

Their are pros and cons and to each his own, but keep recent changes in criminal behavior in mind. There is a growing trend of bad guys shooting blindly through doors and walls. They have collectively learned that doors and walls don't stop bullets and police / citizens don't shoot back through them for lack of a confirmed target. When you give up the element of surprise, you roll a dice on what their next move will be. When the first they see of you is a bright flash, the dice are stacked in your favor. I'd rather wait for the intruder, confirm the target and take the shot than hope he is only half determined.

 

[sokygunner]

Dead fall trap...you might have an issue getting the deposit back on your apartment after you attach a large log to your ceiling but it would be amusing to see.

 

[sohcgt2]

There are far too many variables to ever come up with a constant rate.

You missunderstood again, once the shot has cleared the muzzle it spreads at a constant rate. that rate is determined by a number of factors (shot cup, choke tube, load itself), but make no mistake, each pellet is subject to the laws of physics and whatever direction it is headed when it exits the barrel is the direction it will continue until it is acted on by another force. As a rule there are only 3 other forces that will act on these projectiles. On the other hand a bullet fired from a rifled barrel will only go 1 direction until those 3 other forces redirect it. Now I'll ask you a few questions. have you ever shot target clays with a shotgun? Have you ever missed? Have you ever fired buckshot 100yds and then gone downrange to check the pattern? Have you fired buckshot 100yds downrange with your HD shotgun and then gone to check the pattern? Three degrees of spread at 100yds is a wide area, and I don't want to be responsible for that. I don't practice spray and pray, and I don't condone spray and pray. IMO a shotgun is spray and pray every time it goes boom. Nine shots in nine different directions each pull of the trigger. With my G22 I can put 17 shots in a single 2 inch hole at 15 yards, can you do that with your buckshot? Don't bother answering, I know what the answer is.

Thanks for your opinion, it means no more to me than mine does to you.

 

[ugaarguy]

You missunderstood again, once the shot has cleared the muzzle it spreads at a constant rate. that rate is determined by a number of factors (shot cup, choke tube, load itself), but make no mistake, each pellet is subject to the laws of physics and whatever direction it is headed when it exits the barrel is the direction it will continue until it is acted on by another force.

Guess what? Pellets deform when fired, hence they aren't perfectly round, hence (because they are no longer perfectly round, and their weight is no longer distributed perfectly evenly) they don't spread at a constant rate.

have you ever shot target clays with a shotgun? Have you ever missed?

Yes, and yes. Have you ever shot clay targets with your Glock 22? Have you ever missed?

Have you ever fired buckshot 100yds and then gone downrange to check the pattern? Have you fired buckshot 100yds downrange with your HD shotgun and then gone to check the pattern?

Nope. I don't plan to use buckshot at that range. Anything beyond 25 yards is slug or carbine range. Have you ever fired a pistol at 100 yards and then gone downrange to check your groups? Have you ever fired your Glock 22 at 100 yards and then gone to check your groups?

Three degrees of spread at 100yds is a wide area, and I don't want to be responsible for that. I don't practice spray and pray, and I don't condone spray and pray. IMO a shotgun is spray and pray every time it goes boom. Nine shots in nine different directions each pull of the trigger.

There you go, pulling your constant degrees of spread out of thin air, but I'll use it since you came up with it.

It's impossible for any human to aim and fire a handgun at excactly the same trajectory every time (that's why we have Ransom Rests). Three degrees of spread at 100yds is a wide area, and I don't want to be responsible for that. I don't practice spray and pray, and I don't condone spray and pray. IMO a handgun is spray and pray every time it goes boom. Seventeen shots in seventeen different directions each dump of the magazine.

With my G22 I can put 17 shots in a single 2 inch hole at 15 yards, can you do that with your buckshot? Don't bother answering, I know what the answer is.

I will answer, because you don't know what the answer is. Using Federal Premium 9 pellet 00 (even without the flite control wad) or Hornady TAP FPD 9 Pellet 00 my average pattern for two shots, that's 18 projectiles, is 3.5 to 4 inches at fifteen yards.

With my G22 I can put 17 shots in a single 2 inch hole at 15 yards, can you do that with your buckshot? Don't bother answering, I know what the answer is.

With my AR-15 carbine (I'm not even that good mind you) I can put 30 rounds into a 3.5 inch hole at 100 yards. Can you do that with your Glock 22? Don't bother answering, I know what the answer is.

It's funny you measure shotgun accuracy at 100 yards, but then use 15 yards as your metric for pistol accuracy. It's a bit of a rude awakening when you compare the two at the same ranges isn't it?