Self defense shoot

[arflattop]

Realmswalker, it seems like your problem is more how to document the conversation than whether or not your actions would be defensible. Unfortunately for any of use who use deadly force justifiably, unless the circumstances are crystal clear, it will cost big bucks to defend. One possibility might be to use a cheap digital camera (that takes videos and has sound capability) to record the conversation. Since I've retired I walk our 300 acres, and it's not unusual to run onto someone on the farm (200 acres are forest -- wonderful hunting). I am armed with my 1911, pepper spray, cell phone and the camera (cheap Canon). When I run up on anyone, I hit the record on the camera and let it record the conversation. I don't "video" them, as some would consider it an act of agression. Like you, I needed the capability to document conversations when no other person is present. It's cheaper than a surveillance system!

 

[TDU]

Ever heard of the Castle Law?

Here in Michigan we have what we call the Castle law. It states that your home is your castle and we no longer have to retreat in your castle. The law works differently in each state. I suggest you contact a cop or get some legal advise from someone you trust. First off the person is not in your home legally, second you must tell that person that you have a gun and if they come any closer than you will shoot them. That takes care of the second rule and the third is that if they said they are going to kill you that is the threat. If they come any closer you have already told them they will be shot! But of coarse if this guy is a 110# guy that is 88 years old and he is going to beat you with his cane that changes everything on deadly force. Now if the guy is 250#'s and all mustle bound ( kind of like if looks could kill) and you are not near his size or build than maybe it would be a justifiable shoot. Of coarse if this guy is coming into your home and trying this he has already probably done it before and the cops will be looking for him already (which makes it even more justifiable than before). Just some thoughts!! What do you think??
Do they have NRA defensive classes in Ca? If so check it out it may help more than you know.

TDU

 

[Dustinthewind]

realmswalker,

Let's see if I got this straight. You are worried about being prosecuted for defending yourself in your own home against someone who threatens to kill you? Will this sway your decision to protect you and your family?, will you hesitate?, thus giving your attacker the opportunity that he needs. I have a question for you, Where the Hell did America go? What happened to your right to Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness? Has this been legislsted away?

It changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In my area shooting a unarmed intruder would not be a good thing.

Best case scenario would be a ruling of justifiable homicide. It would be costly but at least you are still here. Often a settlement can be reached on financial restitution to the bad guy or his family

.

Well ain't that peachy. You are alive, but now you have a criminal record and we the jury have determined that you owe the poor victim and his grieving family X amount of dollars, because you know, money makes everything better.

 

[primer]

Here in Louisiana, we can shoot them if they forcefully enter our homes or try to car jack us. I couldn't imagine having to justify shooting someone who broke into my house. But if the law was different, I would rather spend some time in jail with my wife and kids safely at home than obey a law. From the day my first child was born, I became expendable when it comes to my family. Bassically, I would inject massive amounts of lead into the BG.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

That's what kitchen knives are for.

Is amateur hour over yet?

As another poster stated you are allowed to use deadly force if you are in fear for your life or of great bodily injury. I'd say that if a perpetrator broke into your home and advanced on you AFTER you'd retreated and advised he or she that you were armed one could have such fear and act accordingly.

You should make every effort to retreat, make an attempt to call police and advise them that you are in fear for your life and if you do have to use deadly force do NOT make ANY statements without speaking to an attorney first.

 

[realmswalker]

Let's see if I got this straight. You are worried about being prosecuted for defending yourself in your own home against someone who threatens to kill you? Will this sway your decision to protect you and your family?, will you hesitate?, thus giving your attacker the opportunity that he needs. I have a question for you, Where the Hell did America go? What happened to your right to Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness? Has this been legislsted away?

Dust, I'm not saying I wouldn't shoot or hesitate. In my original post i stated I would. I am just saying how it would look if an unarmed person was shot in your home and how difficult it would be to prove that the person threatened to take your gun and shoot you with it, hence a solid reason for fear of life. If the perp is dead all it comes down to is your word and if the jury or D.A or investigators believe you. it's kind of a weird situation. You could say the guy said anything, getting them to believe it would be another story.

It was jst a scenario that i've played out in my mind before.

 

[Superlite27]

I would shoot and not look back. I have caught flak in other threads because I stand behind my decision to fire on anyone who would merely incapacitate me. If I am in an altercation and someone uses LTL (less than lethal) force on me such as OC spray, I will shoot them.

Once I am incapacitated, I have lost the ability to control my deadly weapon. My deadly weapon becomes THEIR deadly weapon. BANG! Killed with my own gun.

Any attempt to incapacitate you could realisticly result in your death. An intruder or assailant doesn't need a weapon to knock you out and take yours. If you have a weapon, and an intruder still advances on you, I don't think he is doing so to give you a hug. Bottom line? If you feel threatened, better off alive and being judged than dead and.........well.....dead.

 

[cpttango30]

Like CPT Picard said. They come and we fall back they asselate eitire worlds and we fall back. A line must be drawn THIS FAR AND NO FUTHER. I think that is about what he said.

 

[Dustinthewind]

realmswalker,

My point is that a society that would see cause to prosecute you for this is a worthless society based on false principles. It is sad that people need worry about legal ramifications for protecting themselves from bodily harm.

 

[Cosmoline]

This is exactly the sort of situation the Castle Doctrine was designed for. Without it, you may face real problems since the man has no weapon and there's only your account of what he said. With it, you're pretty secure since he was breaking into an occupied residence and ignored warnings.

Unfortunately I have no easy answer if you're in a state without the doctrine. But better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 as they say.

 

[Zoogster]

Most things you say were said have no weight in court. It will be your word against the prosecutor.

If they are a stranger that broke into your home and you defended yourself you are legaly justified, but still subject to a long civil case by surviving family even if you are not charged.
The civil case is a proponderance of the evidence and not beyond a reasonable doubt, meaning if they feel there was some other way you could have stayed safe without killing them they could win a wrongful death lawsuit.

If they are a guest, or are previously known to you then you will likely be charged and invesitaged and the court will have to determine if it was justified or not in a criminal case. That could go either way even in a good shoot. Juries are a gamble, and the stakes are your life.


You can defend yourself with lethal force to stop a forcible felony or if you feel in immediate danger while inside your residence. A duty to retreat exists in public in CA but not in your residence (decided by case law in CA not an actual statute.) The relevant statutes cite "what a reasonable person would believe...." and leave the definition open to prior case law.
Don't confuse no duty to retreat with a right to advance though. Since you have few legal protections in CA, while your actions may be legal in your residence, they can be picked apart and you can be sued civily over them. Every action you take including going to confront a criminal in your home can be used to prove you are guilty of wrongful death even if you avoid criminal prosecution.
The burden of proof is low to win a lawsuit that will garnish your wages for years to come(and maybe the rest of your life), if not take some of your assets even in a justified shooting.

Paying to fight both a criminal prosecution, and a civil case, and your bail (if able) will probably leave you in tough times financialy, and could result in you being unable to afford your legal counsel after awhile. That is especialy true if you are unable to make bail and cannot work for an income. Bail can be denied for various reason, or very excessive, and leave you fighting your case from in jail, with no income, while you (and maybe family) lose your home and other assets which are likely what you would need as collateral to pay your attorneys for the year+(sometimes years) such cases often last.
If you have no big assets to begin with, good luck getting a competent legal defense.

 

[BigBadJohn]

Never give a statement to the police - just say I was afraid for my life and I'm too shook up right now and I need to talk to my attorney. Even if it is an incident that doesn't involve a firearm. - Short version - three guys break into my apartment - wife 8 months preggo - Fight ensues (no guns)- neighbor comes to help-
2 bgs injured - all bgs arrested - next day atrocious assault charges filed against ME! (gotta love NJ). All charges against me were finally dropped but it took a while to get things sorted out.
PS one of the cops saw a 12ga in the bedroom and told me I should have shot them would've been less paperwork-(wiseass)

 

[Kind of Blued]

FYI, nobody likes a guy that asks for help then acts like an a**hole by calling everyone who responds an idiot.

If you are in your safe room, you should be in the corner, with a gun, and be on the phone with the 911 dispatcher until you can no longer hold a phone to your head. If he says "I'm going to take your gun and kill you with it", it is now recorded on the 911 phone call right before you shoot him. That case should hold up for you.

 

[PoconoEagle]

here here! my read also.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't think you understood my meaning. What I'm wondering is why you would ever let someone that you were forced to shoot inside your home be found without a weapon.

As in, shoot him and make sure that he has a weapon (kitchen knife, for instance) before the cops show up.

That's called tampering with evidence, and it's the best known way to instantly convert a righteous shoot into a bad shoot.

If you have retreated to your bedroom and the intruder's body is found in the hallway just outside the bedroom door (or just INSIDE the bedroom door) I can't imagine even in a state the requires retreat within the home that you would even be charged. If charged, I don't think any jury would ever convict you.

Just mention the Petit family in Connecticut. The two low-lifes who killed the wife and daughters weren't armed, either.

 

[Big Boomer]

Being as I am in law enforcement jesse, this not only tramps all over my moral grounds, but kind of makes me sad that you would plant evidence. And when It was found that you planted evidence, I have a feeling it would go much worse for you than if he had no weapon at all.

Cops do it all the time around here...

Planting virtual evidence is a different story. It was dark, he said he had a gun and was going to kill me...

May not be "moral" but then I suppose breaking into your home in the middle of the night is...

 

[realmswalker]

FYI, nobody likes a guy that asks for help then acts like an a**hole by calling everyone who responds an idiot.

Mdeviney, I assume you meant the first two people who responded. One was telling me to plant evidence, the other was telling me to leave california. Now do these two responses sound helpful to you?

Anyone else who responded i responded respectfully too. And not once did I call anyone an idiot.

Maybe you should start over and read the thread from the beginning.

 

[realmswalker]

Cops do it all the time around here...

Planting virtual evidence is a different story. It was dark, he said he had a gun and was going to kill me...

May not be "moral" but then I suppose breaking into your home in the middle of the night is...

These kind of statements make me sad.

 

[Big Boomer]

These kind of statement make me sad.

Don't be sad. What other alternative do you have when you are forced to protect yourself or your family, only to be hauled away by the local law enforcement for life anyhow because the laws of the state you live in do not support family protection.

Being dead (or your family members) might be more "morally" acceptable to some but not to others.

Thank God I live in Texas where we don't have to worry about that crap anyhow. You do the best with what you are given, thankfully we are given a lot here.

 

[gym]

Move to Florida

 

[AZ-K9]

The mere fact that someone has broken into your home while occupied gives a reasonable person cause to believe they are present to do harm. There is no reason to be backed into a corner, or retreat.

It's your state and resultant culture there that attempts to provide otherwise.

I'd also go as far to say you support that culture by the very nature of your employment, so in this case you reap what you sow.

The suggestion you move was a good one, you should not be so quick to dismiss it.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

I know why I would shoot, but if this came to a jury trial, the statement, which would definitely help me, would be impossible to prove.

You don't need to prove anything, so why lose sleep over it? You say "this guy said X,Y,Z and then I had to shoot him." Or not. It'd be up to you and your attorney how best to present your defense. Besides, with all of the other hard physical evidence that would be around, I doubt one statement made by the BG before his (un)fortunate demise would matter one way or the other.

 

[Groundhog92614]

So Much Heat but so little Fire

Come on guys -- it seems that many of you talk, but all I hear is conjecture. What do the experts say? For that, I turn to the reviled lawyers. To whit:

Regardless of what happens during an armed confrontation with a BG, the only thing you say to the police is: "I have done nothing wrong, I want a lawyer."

Say it until they stop asking you questions, because it is their job to record any stupid thing you might utter. Then let your lawyer keep you from further assault, either from a lawsuit filed by the dead BG's family, and/or a trial by the local DA.

Regarding your rights in California to defend your home and hearth, I refer to the 2007 California edition of How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail. Note that there is an edition for most of the populated states of the union.

It says in Ch. 5 that to shoot a BG in self defense:

"You must have an honest and reasonable belief that you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury...and your acts are necessary to prevent injury."

The book goes on to say that California State law provides that your shooting in your home is presumed to be necessary when you have an honest and reasonable belief that an intruder unlawfully and forcibly entered your residence [I do a bit of paraphrasing].

So I will shoot a BG confronting me in my California home, much less my bedroom, and he doesn't need to utter threats.

Since I said nothing to the police that would give them any idea of what I felt or knew, it means that a DA will have a harder time proving to a jury what I knew about the BG's entrance into my home. If there is an absence of evidence that the BG did made a forcible entry, then the DA has a better case if he wants to prosecute but at least I don't make it easier for him by saying anything stupid to the police.

Note that in California you have very limited right to pursue a BG outside your house, as when his attack "ends," your right to defend yourself also ends.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

.... an intruder has broken into my occupied home.

That's about all the information I am going to require myself to process and I'll be retreating as far as my weapon, any weapon.

 

[CWL]

Your additional option is to call 911 and leave the phone off the hook until police arrive. This way, the police will have recorded call evidence of what transpired.

Personally, I would call 911, explain what is happening, ask for police assistance and then hang-up.