Self defense shootings, how do you know if you could pull the trigger
- Thread starter nsf003
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That's a good question I've never had to face because I've never frozen up when faced with danger or opportunity. But I know some people do.
I imagine MA training would break a person of that tendency because they'll get smacked around painfully if they don't act to defend themselves by warding off blows, etc.
If you don't sense imminent danger in an SD situation, it's probably not time to shoot anyway.
Hope the rest of the responses flesh out better answers to your question.
I imagine MA training would break a person of that tendency because they'll get smacked around painfully if they don't act to defend themselves by warding off blows, etc.
If you don't sense imminent danger in an SD situation, it's probably not time to shoot anyway.
Hope the rest of the responses flesh out better answers to your question.
Pheonix
Member
Please dont flame me...
My first response is if you are asking yourself this question, why are you carrying? I am not sure if this is the right response. I am now very interested in seeing how others respond to this question.
My first response is if you are asking yourself this question, why are you carrying? I am not sure if this is the right response. I am now very interested in seeing how others respond to this question.
This is a good question and one i've thought about often. I mean if you have to point a weapon at somebody you probably don't have much time to think about whats next. Either way its going to affect you for the rest of your life.
One thing i think helps is going through some form of cooper's color coding. Being aware and ratcheting up your response level from yellow to red gives you a little bit of time to prepare for the next decision. Normal people running to the grocery store, etc. can't go from "i've got to be sure not to forget the avocados" to "kill him" instantly. I think if you practice situational awareness, you have answered any moral qualms you might have about killing another in self defense ahead of time and are aware that it can happen to you right now then you're on your way to developing the proper mindset.
One thing i think helps is going through some form of cooper's color coding. Being aware and ratcheting up your response level from yellow to red gives you a little bit of time to prepare for the next decision. Normal people running to the grocery store, etc. can't go from "i've got to be sure not to forget the avocados" to "kill him" instantly. I think if you practice situational awareness, you have answered any moral qualms you might have about killing another in self defense ahead of time and are aware that it can happen to you right now then you're on your way to developing the proper mindset.
DeltaElite
Member
Easy, the voices in my head would compel me to fire. 
That is a question you really cannot answer unless you have done it.
I haven't.
I have made the decisions that anyone who carries has to consider. Which is...would you. I would. Will I? Hopefully I will not have to find out. But the moral issues have been wrestled through. The question then becomes... what would actually happen if the adrenaline kicks in, the hearing fades, vision goes funny, and the heart races.
I haven't.
I have made the decisions that anyone who carries has to consider. Which is...would you. I would. Will I? Hopefully I will not have to find out. But the moral issues have been wrestled through. The question then becomes... what would actually happen if the adrenaline kicks in, the hearing fades, vision goes funny, and the heart races.
dairycreek
Member
You can't know before the fact.
How does a soldier going into combat know that he will function? Not run and hide when the time comes to fight? He doesn't! But training, thought, and, yes, even prayer ought to help make the right decision at the right time. Good shooting
How does a soldier going into combat know that he will function? Not run and hide when the time comes to fight? He doesn't! But training, thought, and, yes, even prayer ought to help make the right decision at the right time. Good shooting
AZTOY
Member
I know i can pull the trigger, because
I HAVE NO HEART!!
Let the flaming begin
illuminatus99
Member
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- 192
when the adrenaline hits people generally fall back on their training, muscle memory often takes over and you find yourself with an empty gun and a corpse at your feet before you realize what happened. if you haven't trained menatlly and physically it could go either way, you'll either run, freeze or shoot.
Bob Locke
Member
I think that the "Fight or Flight" reaction would take over on most of us, and if the latter wasn't an option then whatever happened next would be almost solely on instinct as much as anything else.
Lots of people do better under heavy stress than in plain old everyday life. I know I tend to be that way.
Am I 100% certain that I could/would pull the trigger? If my life or the lives of my family members were at stake, I am very confident that I would.
Lots of people do better under heavy stress than in plain old everyday life. I know I tend to be that way.
Am I 100% certain that I could/would pull the trigger? If my life or the lives of my family members were at stake, I am very confident that I would.
Actually, you can know before the fact. Training. You will react the way you have or are trained.
Funny thing is I just had an instance of this tonight, kind of shocked me.
I spent 15 years in full contact karate, spent 4.5 years getting my black belt and 10 years teaching, quit about 5 years ago. Very aggressive style, we were taught to aggressively attack when attacked.
I was standing in the livingroom about 9pm, walking through, stopped to see what was on TV for a minute. My son had gone to church with some friends, unknown to me, my wife had left the front door unlocked for him. He came rushing in (he's 10 and rushes everywhere), as soon as I heard the door handle start working I turned and was about to attack whoever was coming through the door. Instantaneous attack mode.
The interesting and telling point about this is that even after that many years I reacted the way I had been trained. Thank God I've never had to defend myself with deadly force and I hope I never will but I have no doubt whatsoever that if armed, I would pull the trigger and if unarmed I would still attack.
The key though is training.
edited to add: Part of the training though is to identify your attacker and be sure that it is a legitimate attack, thus no danger to innocents.
Funny thing is I just had an instance of this tonight, kind of shocked me.
I spent 15 years in full contact karate, spent 4.5 years getting my black belt and 10 years teaching, quit about 5 years ago. Very aggressive style, we were taught to aggressively attack when attacked.
I was standing in the livingroom about 9pm, walking through, stopped to see what was on TV for a minute. My son had gone to church with some friends, unknown to me, my wife had left the front door unlocked for him. He came rushing in (he's 10 and rushes everywhere), as soon as I heard the door handle start working I turned and was about to attack whoever was coming through the door. Instantaneous attack mode.
The interesting and telling point about this is that even after that many years I reacted the way I had been trained. Thank God I've never had to defend myself with deadly force and I hope I never will but I have no doubt whatsoever that if armed, I would pull the trigger and if unarmed I would still attack.
The key though is training.
edited to add: Part of the training though is to identify your attacker and be sure that it is a legitimate attack, thus no danger to innocents.
Beorn
Member
You know, I was in a situation once several years ago where I was an armed guard outside an establishment. A person at point A fired upon a person at point B. I was in A prime.
Thank goodness for 2 things:
1) Crappy shooting with a Saturday Night Special .25
2) Second Chance T-shirt
I was carrying a .38 snubby and a monodock baton. The pistol was on my hip, the stick on a cross-draw across my back.
I was trained with the baton.
I wasn't trained with the pistol.
I drew the baton, and completely forgot the gun was there.
A broken wristed assailant later, I went inside, gave them back my pay (they paid in advance each night), the vest, and the snubby (the baton was mine) and walked out. I have never carried a piece since. And now that I live in the PRK I will probably never get the chance even if I felt I were ready; which I am not.
I reacted to the way I was trained. If I had pulled that gun, I would have killed that guy, and probably gone to jail for a long time for various reasons.
Nowadays, I have no problem hurting bad people. Good people, innocent people have nothing to fear from me. Even animals are pretty much safe (I've never hunted except as the scout, and have only killed farm animals with great reservation). But when that "you are going to die" bell goes off in my head (which, because of extremely poor career choices early in my life happened more often than I care to admit), I react by just doing, not by thinking.
That being said, I sure wish I knew more. The vast amount of self-defense knowledge I don't have is mind-boggling. I am amazed at my own ignorance. For that reason alone, I am glad I am in a much calmer and less dangerous profession now.
I have never been much of a decent person. I try though. Not as hard as maybe I should, but I do try...
Thank goodness for 2 things:
1) Crappy shooting with a Saturday Night Special .25
2) Second Chance T-shirt
I was carrying a .38 snubby and a monodock baton. The pistol was on my hip, the stick on a cross-draw across my back.
I was trained with the baton.
I wasn't trained with the pistol.
I drew the baton, and completely forgot the gun was there.
A broken wristed assailant later, I went inside, gave them back my pay (they paid in advance each night), the vest, and the snubby (the baton was mine) and walked out. I have never carried a piece since. And now that I live in the PRK I will probably never get the chance even if I felt I were ready; which I am not.
I reacted to the way I was trained. If I had pulled that gun, I would have killed that guy, and probably gone to jail for a long time for various reasons.
Nowadays, I have no problem hurting bad people. Good people, innocent people have nothing to fear from me. Even animals are pretty much safe (I've never hunted except as the scout, and have only killed farm animals with great reservation). But when that "you are going to die" bell goes off in my head (which, because of extremely poor career choices early in my life happened more often than I care to admit), I react by just doing, not by thinking.
That being said, I sure wish I knew more. The vast amount of self-defense knowledge I don't have is mind-boggling. I am amazed at my own ignorance. For that reason alone, I am glad I am in a much calmer and less dangerous profession now.
I have never been much of a decent person. I try though. Not as hard as maybe I should, but I do try...
jbutenhoff
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 31
Family
The thought that if I do not act my family may be killed will be enough for me. I would do anything to protect them, and I am sure that a scumbag will never come before any of them.
Jamie
The thought that if I do not act my family may be killed will be enough for me. I would do anything to protect them, and I am sure that a scumbag will never come before any of them.
Jamie
Thumper
Member
If you don't have some well thought out "situational triggers" and you carry, you'd better sit down and think about what situations EXACTLY you would shoot under.
Like illuminatus said...you will not rise to the occasion...you will default to your level of training. Who said that originally? Can't remember...
Jeff Cooper has said that his color system is as much a psychological trick to force yourself to function as it is a tool for situational awareness. When do you go "red."
When exactly? I know what would trigger me...what about you?
Like illuminatus said...you will not rise to the occasion...you will default to your level of training. Who said that originally? Can't remember...
Jeff Cooper has said that his color system is as much a psychological trick to force yourself to function as it is a tool for situational awareness. When do you go "red."
When exactly? I know what would trigger me...what about you?
Mike Irwin
Member
If I didn't think that I could pull the trigger if I needed to, I simply wouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.
I suppose intensive training can make it easier to know.
I don't believe you ever know for sure until it is too late. Some who look like they will be perfectly prepared soldiers and police officers can't fire, when push comes to shove.
I asked myself the same thing before applying for a concealed carry permit. I thought about the morals and ethics and what I was prepared to go through to protect myself (dealing with legal system).
I thought the answer was yes.
When I thought I might need to defend myself, I have put my hand near my gun.
When I really thought it was inevitable, I had the gun out, safety off. Contrary to all my training, I was ready to fire one handed. Weird, as I always fire with both hands at the range.
So I guess the answer was yes after all.
I don't believe you ever know for sure until it is too late. Some who look like they will be perfectly prepared soldiers and police officers can't fire, when push comes to shove.
I asked myself the same thing before applying for a concealed carry permit. I thought about the morals and ethics and what I was prepared to go through to protect myself (dealing with legal system).
I thought the answer was yes.
When I thought I might need to defend myself, I have put my hand near my gun.
When I really thought it was inevitable, I had the gun out, safety off. Contrary to all my training, I was ready to fire one handed. Weird, as I always fire with both hands at the range.
So I guess the answer was yes after all.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Once again, THR's timing is uncanny.
I got a call today from a guy who wanted to help in our state's CCW effort. He doesn't own a handgun, but got all fired up after going to a bowhunter rally last weekend where Ted Nugent was speaking. I can understand how even "the Nuge" can get bowhunters fired up about guns.
Anyway, he wanted to know what's going on, why the bill is being held up, and then went on to ask a ton of questions about when and where he could legally shoot someone.
After politely asking him to put his brain into "pause" mode, I explained the realities of what I've been taught about SD shootings: "disparity of force" (shooter is 6'8", 320 lbs and "victim" is 5'9" 150 lbs), over-zealous DA's, civil suits, location-location-location (as in rural vs. big city).
But the BIG question is the mental preparedness beforehand, something that all serious self-defense gun owners should or have gone through. Are you really prepared to do the worst? That's a tough issue to deal with, but it's the first one to deal with before even buying a gun for self-defense.
I've been in some rough spots before where I thought somebody was going to have to be hurt, cut, or maybe dead. Thank God I haven't had to "go all the way," and God willing, I won't have to.
I got a call today from a guy who wanted to help in our state's CCW effort. He doesn't own a handgun, but got all fired up after going to a bowhunter rally last weekend where Ted Nugent was speaking. I can understand how even "the Nuge" can get bowhunters fired up about guns.
Anyway, he wanted to know what's going on, why the bill is being held up, and then went on to ask a ton of questions about when and where he could legally shoot someone.
After politely asking him to put his brain into "pause" mode, I explained the realities of what I've been taught about SD shootings: "disparity of force" (shooter is 6'8", 320 lbs and "victim" is 5'9" 150 lbs), over-zealous DA's, civil suits, location-location-location (as in rural vs. big city).
But the BIG question is the mental preparedness beforehand, something that all serious self-defense gun owners should or have gone through. Are you really prepared to do the worst? That's a tough issue to deal with, but it's the first one to deal with before even buying a gun for self-defense.
I've been in some rough spots before where I thought somebody was going to have to be hurt, cut, or maybe dead. Thank God I haven't had to "go all the way," and God willing, I won't have to.
4thHorseman
Member
It's never been a problem.
Marshall
Member
Nsf,
I think that is the most honest question I have ever seen asked and answered on a gun board!
First: You have to answer the question to your satisfaction of if your faith allows you to do so in a pinch? If so, proceed to step two, if not don't carry because it's not an option for you at this point.
Second: Do you have the ability, time, and desire to become familiar enough with the weapon to where it gives you no pause to think or become worried about what to do with it. Confidence in yourself and in your weapon and in the two of you together is of the utmost importance!
Third: You need to have the ability to honestly pick your battles wisely! You need to know before hand under what conditions you would shoot a human, I don't mean you need to know every scenario. The only reason I have for shooting another human being is if my life is in infinite danger, or my families, and I have no option left to save our lives. Are you at a point in your life you can pick your battles wisely? Mature enough? Can you reasonably control your emotion and temper? Can you look for the best way out of an bad situation and find it? (you can receive training on these things too)
Forth: If your answers lend themselves to carrying a hundgun, then proceed to training!
I think the fact you are here asking this question is a sign of maturity and speaks well for you!
Remember this (don't flame me guys, lol), you can be pro gun and pro 2cd Ammendment without carrying a firearm! I venture to say 99% of the members of this forum have never had to kill another human to save their lives, outside of war. There is no shame in not carrying a handgun, it is for some people and not for others!
I think that is the most honest question I have ever seen asked and answered on a gun board!
First: You have to answer the question to your satisfaction of if your faith allows you to do so in a pinch? If so, proceed to step two, if not don't carry because it's not an option for you at this point.
Second: Do you have the ability, time, and desire to become familiar enough with the weapon to where it gives you no pause to think or become worried about what to do with it. Confidence in yourself and in your weapon and in the two of you together is of the utmost importance!
Third: You need to have the ability to honestly pick your battles wisely! You need to know before hand under what conditions you would shoot a human, I don't mean you need to know every scenario. The only reason I have for shooting another human being is if my life is in infinite danger, or my families, and I have no option left to save our lives. Are you at a point in your life you can pick your battles wisely? Mature enough? Can you reasonably control your emotion and temper? Can you look for the best way out of an bad situation and find it? (you can receive training on these things too)
Forth: If your answers lend themselves to carrying a hundgun, then proceed to training!
I think the fact you are here asking this question is a sign of maturity and speaks well for you!
Remember this (don't flame me guys, lol), you can be pro gun and pro 2cd Ammendment without carrying a firearm! I venture to say 99% of the members of this forum have never had to kill another human to save their lives, outside of war. There is no shame in not carrying a handgun, it is for some people and not for others!
sm
member
I also wouldn't carry if I thought I couldn't pull the trigger.
In situations of a serious note I've been blessed with being able to keep my wits, my cool, and function. I have survived a few instances.
In assisting with CCW students this question is asked. Yes, we have had a few that changed their mind, did not continue. We have also had to NOT allow someone to continue.
Mindset, training. Lotsa luck thrown in for good measure.
I wanted to survive, still do.
In situations of a serious note I've been blessed with being able to keep my wits, my cool, and function. I have survived a few instances.
In assisting with CCW students this question is asked. Yes, we have had a few that changed their mind, did not continue. We have also had to NOT allow someone to continue.
Mindset, training. Lotsa luck thrown in for good measure.
I wanted to survive, still do.
voilsb
Member
I'll echo the above sentiments, that it's training, training, and training.
some of it's mental. going over situations in your head. what has to happen before I shoot someone? what do I have to do to get there? what will I do during the event? what about afterwards?
some of it's physical. taking classes and workshops on tactical firearm use. practicing your reaction time and draw. practicing with a non-lethal gun (water gun, paintball gun, simunitions) against real people who are "attacking" you.
but in the end, you need to train how you want to fight. because no matter what: you will fight like you train.
some of it's mental. going over situations in your head. what has to happen before I shoot someone? what do I have to do to get there? what will I do during the event? what about afterwards?
some of it's physical. taking classes and workshops on tactical firearm use. practicing your reaction time and draw. practicing with a non-lethal gun (water gun, paintball gun, simunitions) against real people who are "attacking" you.
but in the end, you need to train how you want to fight. because no matter what: you will fight like you train.
Carlos
Member
All excellent posts, but I think like Marshall, myself.
Yes, I'm ready to protect myself and my family and friends. No problem. No hesitation. Readiness state of mind.
My state of mind is such that God Forbid I should ever have to make a life or death decision for somebody else's life, my soul will be clean and I might feel good enough about things to actually ever sleep again in my life. Not to mention the authorities being satisfied.
This is an increasingly evil world we're living in. I'll not be a helpless sheeple.
Yes, I'm ready to protect myself and my family and friends. No problem. No hesitation. Readiness state of mind.
My state of mind is such that God Forbid I should ever have to make a life or death decision for somebody else's life, my soul will be clean and I might feel good enough about things to actually ever sleep again in my life. Not to mention the authorities being satisfied.
This is an increasingly evil world we're living in. I'll not be a helpless sheeple.
Croyance,
Funniest thing - On the several ocassions I've found myself pointing a handgun at someone, I invariably resort to one hand as well (I also practice 2-handed at the range)! This is not so bad at night when I'm using a flashlight but I do this during the day, too. Darned if I understand it!
Coffee
Funniest thing - On the several ocassions I've found myself pointing a handgun at someone, I invariably resort to one hand as well (I also practice 2-handed at the range)! This is not so bad at night when I'm using a flashlight but I do this during the day, too. Darned if I understand it!
Coffee
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