Selling items to get an Uberti [or Taylor] 1873....

[Orion8472]

I'm considering selling some stuff I'm no longer excited about to get an Uberti 1873 lever action rifle. Initially, I was looking at the new Winchester 1873, but it is a bit more pricey. But even the Uberty is over a grand in price.

Planning on the 357/38 model so I can shoot cheaper 38 loads.....maybe get an Uberti El Patron Competition later to go along with it.

Would it be better to save up for the Winchester [even though it seems they are the same build, just a bit better wood on the Winchester]?

Anyone have one?

I know it is "up to me", but am interested in your thoughts on this.

Taylor is another possibility.

 

[35 Whelen]

I'm very partial to Uberti's, which encompass Cimarron and Taylor. I owned a Cimarron .44 Special and sold it to fund a Uberti .44 Magnum carbine. This rifle is incredibly, incredibly smooth operating and even with my 50+ year old eyes groups handloads at about 2" @ 100 yds. I also have a Uberti 24" Sporting Rifle in 44-40. Again, a marvelous piece of machinery whose accuracy and function exceeded my expectations by a wide margin.

I'm also on my third original Winchester '73 having now possessed tow 1890 and one 1886 productions. Having had all of them apart, I can tell you that, with the exception of metallurgy, they're all but identical and any differences would have found with a micrometer and a caliper.

I have a buddy who competes regularly in CAS with a Uberti '73 in 357 Magnum. I asked him a couple of weeks ago how many rounds he'd run through it. After a little math and counting empty primer cartons, he came up with around 15,000 during which time the only part that he replaced is firing pin.

I've not handled a new production Winchester 1873, but in my opinion they're a visual abomination. A casual glance will reveal a couple of glaring differences in the new and the original including the trigger for some reason dangling out in the middle of the trigger guard, rather than tucked neatly to the rear as with the others mentioned, as well as a noticeably different tang.

The above, other than the facts, is just my opinion. Good luck with your choice!

35W

 

[DPris]

Regardless of which importer you buy through, any new Italian 73 will be a Uberti.

They are typically nice rifles & you can upgrade certain key parts later (not just the short-stroke stuff) if you want.

The Winchesters have modified firing pin systems that add complexity.
They'll probably show a slightly higher grade of fit & finish.

Uberti parts are easily available to keep as spares.
Winchester parts are not.

Your choice.
Denis

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I'm a cowboy action shooter so I see a lot of Uberti '73s, but I have seen several of the Winchester rifles and have read a lot about them on the SASS Wire. Consensus seems to be that the Winchester is smoother than the Uberti "out of the box" but neither is really match ready so it's kind of a toss up if you are going to have action work done. Uberti has more variations in caliber, bbl length and finish but what Winchester offers are good. There is more aftermarket support for the Uberti but there are some basic competition parts available for the Winnie, including a firing pin extension that eliminates the firing pin block.


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[stubbicatt]

OP, a year or two ago I did the same thing. I sold a bunch of milsurps which no longer interested me and began to collect Winchesters, and Winchester clones. The first was the Taylors 357mag Sporting Rifle, 20" barrel, with which I am well satisfied. I don't shoot CAS, but I have used it in lever action silhouette, and it is quite adequate for both pistol caliber and the 200 yard games. I hand load and use cast bullets, and I am pleased with its performance.

 

[BCRider]

The Miroku made Winchesters seem to come with nicer grain in the wood. If you're going to be looking at it frequently over the years that might well be one reason for spending a little more up front.

Being a hobby level CAS sort of fellow I do find that my slicked up lever rifle is a joy to shoot. And when I'm handed a stock out of the box lever gun my thoughts immediately turn to how rough the lever cycle feels and what would be needed to slick it up. So to get the most out of any new lever gun you buy I'd suggest that at least some minimal work would be worth while even if you never go with the short stroke kit and try to pump out 10 rounds in under two seconds.

Outside of that I'll offer the thought that while the long octagonal barrels look fantastic that the short round barrel carbine I hefted felt a LOT more balanced in my hands. But then I'm used to my 20" 1892 clone so I may be somewhat biased to the lighter weight. But in any event the idea of a 24 inch octagonal barrel seems just a trifle over the top. For handgun caliber rounds a 20 inch barrel of either shape seems to me to make a lot more sense.

 

[RainDodger]

I have not handled the "new" Winchesters or looked at them, but I think the Uberti must be a favorable comparison. Perhaps the case hardening on a Winchester is a bit "smoother" (I don't know), but here's my Uberti fwiw:



Yes, I have a short barreled Browning '92 in .44 Magnum that balances in far handier way, but there's really something about the octagonal barrel. The above Uberti is their Sporting Rifle version, which is not a long barrel. It's still much heavier than the '92 of course, but not unwieldy by any means. Sure doesn't kick much with .357 Magnums though. On the other hand, that light '92 with full-house .44 Magnums will dent your shoulder some.

 

[80Goat]

I have a couple of Uberti 73's - a 45 Colt and a short-stroked 357. Both are sweet shooters. They are very accurate. I enjoy shooting them out to 100 yards.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have a couple of Uberti 73's - a 45 Colt and a short-stroked 357. Both are sweet shooters. They are very accurate. I enjoy shooting them out to 100 yards.

I think there's a stigma with the Italian guns being nothing more than cheap repros, and conversely if it's a Winchester, it's automatically a quality firearm. I sold a NIB 3rd Generation Colt SA without even firing it because of the over heavy hammer spring and the gritting feeling when the hammer was cocked. I didn't see the point of slicking up a $1500 revolver just so I could shoot it thereby lowering its value.

35W

 

[Float Pilot]

I recently went on a 1873 buying expedition. I was hoping to find a Uberti sporting rifle but could not find one after a 5 hour drive to the big city. I did find two or three Uberti CARBINEs, which did not trip my trigger. I also looked at three or four of the Miroku made new 1873 Winchesters. I finally settled on a Winchester branded short rifle. It was only $150 more than the Ubertis. The fit and finish were better on the Winchester branded rifles I looked at that day. Plus mine is short stroked right out of the box.

Mine is in 45 Colt to match my pistols. I have an original 1892 in 38wcf ( 38-40) that matches my 38-40 pistols.

This is the 3rd or fourth rifle/carbine I have owned in 45 Colt. ( which is not historically a carbine cartridge.) The problem with 45 Colts in a standard pressure load, is that they do not gain much velocity from a longer barrel. In fact the long 24 and 26 inch barreled rifles loose velocity.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

One thing to be aware of with the 1873s is that the cartridge overall length must be within a certain range or they will not feed. In fact, they can jam up requiring you to disassemble the magazine tube to clear it, if your rounds are too short. I do not know what that OAL range is for the rifles in .357, so I suggest doing some research to ensure your rounds will work in your gun.

The Ubertis are wonderfully made. I bought this Cimarron Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle in .44 WCF from Buffalo Arms in March and have been very pleased with it.



Uberti hasn't added any additional safeties to the design, unlike the reintroduced Winchester (Miroku) 1873s, so their rifles are actually closer to the original rifles than the new production rifles stamped "Winchester."

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

One thing to be aware of with the 1873s is that the cartridge overall length must be within a certain range or they will not feed. In fact, they can jam up requiring you to disassemble the magazine tube to clear it, if your rounds are too short. I do not know what that OAL range is for the rifles in .357, so I suggest doing some research to ensure your rounds will work in your gun.

Howdy

There is no cartridge stop on the carrier of any of the toggle link rifles, Henry, 1866, or 1873. Instead, the rear wall of the opening in the frame where the carrier rides serves as a cartridge stop. So the overall length of a cartridge on the carrier determines how much of the next round in the magazine protrudes onto the carrier. There is a bevel at the bottom of the floor of the carrier. The purpose of the bevel is to shove a protruding round back into the magazine so the carrier can pass by on its way up to eject the empty brass and feed a new round into the chamber. If too much of the next round in the magazine protrudes into the carrier space, the bevel will be too short to shove the round back and the carrier will jam against the protruding round.

Here is a photo looking down on the carrier of my Uberti 1873. The carrier is in the lower position, and there is a round on the carrier. You can see how the magazine spring has shoved the next round partially out, and also shoved the round on the carrier back against the wall of the frame. This rifle happens to be chambered for 44-40, but the theory is the same with a 357 Mag/38 Special 1873. My 44-40 round is just about the perfect length, only the rim of the next round, about .060, is protruding into the carrier space. The bevel will easily shove it back as the carrier rises.

Most 357 Mag Uberti owners who shoot 38 Specials try to keep their rounds to an Over All Length of 1.45 - 1.50. This length will still allow the bevel to shove the next round back into the magazine as the carrier rises. However, each rifle is different and you may find you need a cartridge OAL of 1.60 to prevent jams.





NOTE: Do not use round nosed or pointed bullets in a rifle with a tubular magazine. Flat Point Round Nosed bullets or Truncated Cone bullets are best. Semi-Wadcutters have a flat nose, but sometimes the shoulder will jam on the edge of the chamber as it feeds.

The cartridge second from the right in this photo is a 38 Special loaded with a 125 grain Truncated Cone bullet.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

^^^^^^^
Driftwood Johnson explained what I brought up very well.

 

[Orion8472]

This has been some real quality information here. I appreciate all that has been posted!

 

[Panzerschwein]

One of my absolute firearms dreams is to get an Uberti '73 rifle in .40-40, with one of there SAA's in the same caliber. I'd refinish the wood on both of them to make them more original, vs the ugly red Italian varnish that is non authentic. Then, I'd have both professionally tuned for maximum reliability and performance. I'd also be sure to get a nice high quality leather rig with belt loops to hold the ammo, oh, and a reloading and casting setup for the ammo as well because I'd be using a ton of it!

One of my firearms dreams.

 

[Orion8472]

As far as the issue with the "short cartridge 38 special", is there a way to make it to where all it will shoot is 38 special? If I got one, that's all I would be running through it and don't want to get into an issue with reliability.

Having said that, I guess I really should be checking the pricing for flat nose 38 specials. I'd prefer 45colt, but the prices for them are extreme. But if I had my preference, it would be the 45 colt in the Winchester with hopefully grade III wood and nice case hardening.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

If you keep your ammo to the lengths I stated above you will not have a problem.

Short of that, you could modify the carrier, installing a short piece of metal at the rear to act as a cartridge stop for 38 Specials. This has been done to some rifles so they could feed the 45 Cowboy Special, which has the same over all length as 45 ACP. But once you did this you could no longer feed 357 Magnums in it, unless you made the stop removable. To make this work, the block has to pivot to allow ammo to feed past it from the loading gate. Not really worth the effort, stick with ammo of a length that works. Many, many CAS shooters shoot nothing but 38 Specials through their 357Mag/38 Sp Uberti 1873 rifles.

Here is a link showing how the modification for 45 Cowboy Special ammo works.

http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html

 

[Orion8472]

At this point in my life, I'd be buying ammo at the store. Eventually I might get into reloading, but it will be awhile before that happens. Any idea which brand of flat nose truncated is to the length needed?

Again, thanks for the excellent info!

 

[Orion8472]

I've been thinking,.....if I decide to do this, I'll just shoot 357 through it until I have a place to reload my own bullets. Then I can use the 357 casing and load them with lighter powder [not interested in high power loads, just fun shooting].

I can buy cheap 38 specials for whatever revolver I get.

 

[loose noose]

I've got a Taylor & Co. 1873 in the .45Colt, that I used in CAS. It is very accurate out to 40 yards. The color case hardening is very bright, and I do believe it was done by that company mentioned.

 

[Orion8472]

Made another decision. If I decide to get one of these, I'm going to go with the actual Winchester product.

Then I'll just get an Uberti 357 to go along with it.....since a new Colt is nearly 3 times as much.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Something to consider is that the Uberti 1873s are actually closer to the original design than the current production, Miroku-made Winchesters. The new Winchester 1873s have added safety features that change the design.

Whether this matters to you I dunno but you should be aware of it so you can make an informed decision.

 

[Orion8472]

Dave, I'm not aware of that. I guess I need to do more research. What I DO know is that the wood looks better on the Winchester. And I FEEL as though the Japan builds would be of better quality. That may be pure bunk. Taylors/Uberti rifle may be just as good for all I know. I'm fairly new in this endeavor......but I'm quite interested. I'm really liking the whole history of these types of firearms.

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, I have a little bit of everything and while the Miroku guns are a step or two above most domestic leverguns of the last century, the Uberti rifles give up little to them.

 

[Orion8472]

Here's a question. For something rather low powered, like a 38 special round [in this heavy of a rifle], do I really need to worry about "only flat nose rounds", or would round nose bullets be okay in it?