Uberti 1873

[VancMike]

Recently, I bought a Uberti 1873 in .357, with a 20" barrel. I've owned lots of lever actions, but never any designed prior to 1885. I've been fascinated with the 1860's Henry (I'm referring to the "real" Henry!) toggle link and shell carrier feature.

Of course, while cleaning the barrel, I couldn't resist taking off the side-plates and checking out the linkage. I don't have measurements of antique 1873's, but the gun appears to be true to the original, including the lever locking latch, brass shell carrier and sliding breech cover. Cool.

I can report I'm very pleased with my purchase. The gun is very accurate, even with (or maybe because of?) the buckhorn rear sights. Because of the heavy octagon barrel....even at 20"....and the much longer receiver, I need to acclimatize myself to a different balance point than later Winchester and Marlin rifles I've owned. Others on this site who remark about the smoothness of the toggle action are spot on.

At the range, I discovered the gun won't feed semi-wadcutters, nor cast bullets with driving bands ahead of the crimping groove. And, because of the precise dimensions of the shell carrier block, it absolutely won't chamber over-length cartridges.

For now, I'll have to be content with round-nose cast bullets and jacketed bullets. But I'm contemplating careful smoothing of the chamber mouth so as to allow feeding of lead SWC.

What think you all?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

You should have no problem feeding Semi-Wadcutter bullets. The toggle link rifles feed the ammo straight into the chamber just like shoving a torpedo into a torpedo tube on a submarine. Very little chance for misalignment, unlike later Winchester and Marlin designs, which feed the ammo up a tilting carrier. Just like with a 1911, a round can jam as it rides up the ramp and has to transition into straight forward delivery. A Semi-Wadcutter bullet can catch its sharp shoulder on the top of the chamber as it slides in. But the straight forward presentation of the ammo is more forgiving in a toggle link rifle.

Same with round nosed bullets with a crimp groove. They should feed fine. Of course a tapered round like 44-40 or 38-40 will feed better, that is part of the reason for the tapered design, to feed easily in a lever gun.

The 1873 chambered for 357 Mag/38 Sp is the most popular rifle in Cowboy Action Shooting and they usually perform very well. I would experiment a bit with different bullet designs and OAL before I messed with the chamber. Modern Ubertis are more forgiving of variation in OAL than older ones. There is no cartridge stop, the round on the carrier is the stop. If the round on the carrier is too short, then it will allow too much of the next round in the magazine to protrude out of the magazine. The carrier can then jam against the protruding round. There is a small ramp machined onto the carrier that will sweep the round back into the magazine so that the carrier can pass by. Recent Ubertis have a more pronounced ramp and are more tolerant of short rounds than earlier guns.

Generally speaking, the best OAL is going to be the length of the carrier minus the thickness of a rim or two.

 

[Onmilo]

Insted of cobbling up the rifle, just cut your brass back an additional 1/20" or easier still, use .38 special brass and semi wadcutters.
People say it can't be done, but I shoot my 1860 Henry and my 1873 Carbine with .45 Schofield ammo.

 

[Red Cent]

While the '73 shoves them straight forward, they rattle around in the elevator and are not held perfectly for the chamber. They do feed them better than the Winchester or Marlin.

My '73s are lightly radiused on the outside edge of the chamber. I used a dowel rod (calm down RC) with a hole drilled in the end. Remove the bolt and with a drill and a brass screw covered in valve gringing compound or something like it, let 'er go. Lightly. You just want to softly break the edge. Works like a barrel crown directing the bullet to the center.

I would suggest one other possible remedy besides the radiusing of the chamber mouth. Make sure you have a tight roll crimp on the lead rounds. Not only will you get rid of any small edge, you will experience consistent ignition.

I shoot a lead truncated cone bullet. The shoulder of the bullet is a tad longer than the case. I have used these in competition for a number of years. Outstanding performance when you really have to run a lever fast.

 

[rcmodel]

I'll have to be content with round-nose cast bullets and jacketed bullets.

The gun was designed to use RNFP (flat point) bullets.

It is a tube magazine, and although highly unlikely, you don't want a mag tube explosion from a RN resting on the primer in front of it.

rc

 

[boykinlp]

VancMike.
I would love to see some pictures of your new Uberti. They are usually one of the prettiest guns around.

 

[BCRider]

A side note about the chambering of various ammo. My own Rossi '92 clone has issues with SWC ammo as well and often wedges the rounds in place when trying to load fast in a match. I wondered about rounding or chamfering the rear mouth of the chamber and aske our local 'smith that specializes in CAS arms about this. He mentioned that he used to consider this and did a little but really didn't know how much he could get away with. Then one day an authentic '92 showed up for some work. He took this opportunity to study the gun closely and found that the chamfering/rounding of the old original gun was rather "funnel like". Based on this he normally chamfers to around a .030 45* angle on the lower edge and a little less on the upper then polishes the sharp edges to round them over a little. Apparently this greatly aids the whole process. It's not a one shot cureall but it really helps.

If the 1873 feeds the rounds up at an angle to the chamber mouth it may help with those as well. But I sort of thought that on the 73 that the rounds were lifted more or less flat and then pushed in. Mind you if the chamber mouth is fairly sharp at the opening than a little chamfer and polish would still go a long ways to allowing SWC to load more readily.

 

[snakeman]

pics please!

 

[Slamfire]

I am curious to know how a 1873 modern action will hold up to 357 and 44 magnum rounds.

Uberti has a 44 magnum carbine

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873_rifle_and_carbine.php

I have heard, and looking at pictures, the toggle system does not look to be very strong.

Will it hold up?

 

[Tommygunn]

That's a good question Slamfire1. The toggle link Winchesters were not as strong as the later Browning designed ones. For example the 1892, while chambered for the .44-40 and other "pistol" size cartridges is really over-designed and this is why the 92 design is made in .44 magnum and other modern powerful cartridges (modern metallurgy also helps).
I am not sure how Uberti managed the 1873 in .44 magnum. I have a Uberti 1873 carbine in .44-40 and a Browning B-92 in .44 mag, and I can attest to the fact that the magnum, in a carbine, is a much hardier, stouter round than the .44-40.
To me the idea of using a toggle link type gun -- plenty good enough for those .44-40, .38-40 and like -- for a 20th century magnum rounds sounds like courting disaster.
However, I am reasonably certain also that Uberti knows what they're doing and they would not go to the trouble and expense of developing and marketing this gun if they thought it was in any way inordinantly dangerous. In our litiginous society, I just don't see it. I think these guns are safe.
Perhaps it's beefier toggles or some advanced metallurgy, or whatever.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I am curious to know how a 1873 modern action will hold up to 357 and 44 magnum rounds.

Uberti has a 44 magnum carbine

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873_...nd_carbine.php

I have heard, and looking at pictures, the toggle system does not look to be very strong.

Will it hold up?

Howdy Again

You are correct. The toggle link actions are not as strong as later actions such as the Winchester Model 1892 or the Marlin Model 1894. Both of these actions use relatively modern bolt designs employing locking lugs that securely block the bolt from moving once the lever is closed.

The toggle link rifles are not the same. They are never truly locked in the way a modern action uses solid lugs to block the bolt from moving. With a toggle link rifle when the bolt is all the way forward, the links are unfolded with all three pivot points in line, preventing the bolt from moving back.

Like this:






When the lever is pushed all the way forward, the extension on the lever causes the links to fold, pulling the bolt back, like this:



The thing these photos do not show is that if the bolt is not completely closed all the way, if the links are not quite in line, and if there is an accidental discharge, they have no strength at all. If the links are not lined up by even a tiny amount when a round is fired, the force of recoil will fold them just as if you were standing up and somebody snuck up behind you and pushed your knees forward from behind. You would fall like a ton of bricks, and a set of toggle links will also fold from recoil, as the bolt vigorously shoves them back. One must always be careful the bolt is completely closed before touching the trigger on a toggle link rifle. That's why the 1873 has a lever safety, to prevent the trigger from being pulled until the links are locked.

In addition, the toggle link rifles basically have skeletonized frames, like my 1873. One side plate was removed for the photos, but you can see there is not a whole lot of structure to the frame. The bottom line is, toggle links are relatively weak actions.

I have a pal who bought a used 1873 rifle chambered for 357 Magnum a few years ago. When he got it home he discovered a hairline crack in the frame. His gunsmith father-in-law said "Whoops, too many full power loads". My pal got his money back.

Every rifle that Uberti makes is proofed in a government run proof house, so in theory, they are all able to take the pressure of a proof round. But as my friend found out, there is no telling what happens when they get home and how many full power rounds they can take. Uberti first announced the 44 Mag version of their 1873 about a year ago. They are starting to get into consumer's hands. They too have been proofed in government run proof houses, so they are able to take the pressure of a proof round. It remains to be seen what will happen if they have dozens and dozens of full power 44 Mag ammo run through them.

**************

Here is a photo looking down at a round on the carrier of my '73. This is what I mean when I say the round is going to be shoved into the chamber like a torpedo going into a torpedo tube. You can see what I was talking about regarding the cartridge preventing the next round in the magazine from squirting out onto the carrier. This is just about the optimal situation. Only the rim of the next round is visible. That allows just enough space for the round on the carrier to rise without hanging up on the mortise that houses the carrier. A slightly shorter round is fine, allowing a bit more of the next round to poke out. But eventually, a point will be reached where too much round is poking out and the carrier cannot shove the round back in as it rises. My 1873 was made in the 1980s, and it is particularly intolerant of short rounds on the carrier. Modern ones are a bit more forgiving. This rifle is chambered for 44-40, but the concept is the same with any cartridge. I use nothing but Round Nosed Flat Point bullets when I load 44-40.






Here is a photo of a round on the carrier of a Winchester Model 1892. This is an original Winchester made in 1918. The round is resting on the carrier, which is tilted up to shove the round into the chamber. The two steel bars on either side of the round are the guide rails that are screwed to the frame. The cuts in the guide rails are there to allow the rim of the cartridge to pass through.






Here is a slightly different view, showing the nose of the bullet poised to enter the chamber.







In this view, the bullet is just starting to enter the chamber. This is the point when trouble can happen. If there is anything that can catch on the chamber, this is when it will happen. I never have any problem with these bullets, they always slide right in.







I was intrigued with the remark about the old Winchester having the edge of the chamber chamfered. There is absolutely no chamfering on the chamber of this rifle. Just a teeny bit of wear from about 90 years of use. No chamfering.





Here is the chamber of my other '92, this one is a bit older, made in 1894. A bit more wear on the lower lip of the chamber, but not really chamfered. You can also see there is a chip missing from the thin piece of steel separating the chamber from the hollow that receives the ejector. Just more wear from over 100 years of use.





*******************



I should have mentioned Truncated Cone bullets to the original poster. Sorry for the oversight. The 38 Special round on the left has a 125 grain Truncated Cone bullet. The round on the right has a standard 158 grain Semi-Wadcutter. I load the truncated cone bullets for a little Marlin 1894 that I have. The Marlin also uses a tilting carrier very similar to the 1892 Winchester. Those bullets slide right in without hanging up on anything. Just comparing the two bullets it is obvious why the Truncated Cone bullets work so well in a lever gun. They offer very little in the way of sharp edges to get hung up as they slide in. I load these rounds to an OAL of about 1.450. Something about that long should work well in a '73 chambered for 357Mag/38Sp.





You can buy bullets like these lots of places. I buy them from Moulton Lead in Vermont. They are great people and they have very good prices.


http://www.moultonlead.com/

 

[BrocLuno]

Yeah, they have their short comings - but they are so cool

And, with modern high strength steels with nickle and vanadium, they are not likely to break the toggles or pins even if they go off slightly out of battery.

The old carbon steels of John Brownings era are WAY softer and weaker than what is even going in Russian tractors today

 

[saaman]

I really enjoy my Uberti 1873 Carbine in 44-40, but it took a while to get everything working right. At first my crimp on the bullet wasn't enough to keep it from pushing back in the case and tieing everything up. Then I had to deepen the extractor notch because it would not extract empties.

Next found the bore was .429 instead of .427 and gave poor accuracy with the smaller bullet. I got a Lee 429-200-RF bullet mold that has the ideal crimp groove to keep the bullet in place with a Lee factory crimp die. Also thinned the lever safety spring to make it work easier and smoothed the trigger pull while it was apart. Had to buy a set of gunsmith screwdrivers because everything was put together so tight. If I wasn't a gun tinkerer I probably would have given up and sold it.

Shooting it the other day my grandson found it holds 11 in the tube plus one in the chamber instead of the advertised 10 plus one. Good looking gun, smooth action, accurate, fun to shoot!

 

[BCRider]

DJ, I thank you for that rather comprehensive posting. And based on your information I think I'm going to just go with my original plan which was to stop using SWC bullets in my Rossi rifle. Mind you the edges of the chamber of my Rossi are rather knife like so you'll excuse me if I at least smooth them a little?

The rifle that my smith saw may well have been modified by some previous smith to try to make it more friendly to SWC rounds.

Getting back to the Uberti 73 this rifle is a very popular choice for cowboy action. But it tends to see primarily .38Spl rounds or magnum brass loaded to .38Spl load levels. Which may be why it survives so well.

 

[Slamfire]

Beautiful pictures Driftwood and excellent explanation.

You can clearly see the compression load path is through the toggle joint and that does not look very rigid. If it gets off axis it sure will come un locked. Then also the receiver top is under tension . This does not look to be a very solid or rigid arrangement.

Let up hope that Uberti is using the most modern alloy steels, that ought to increase the strength of the action, but the toggle still looks inherently unstable.

 

[Tommygunn]

...the toggle still looks inherently unstable.

It's stable enough for the cartridges it was originally designed for when used correctly .... but just not strong enough for much more.
The 1873 design was elongated for the Winchester 1876 which really stretched the design's parameters to handle stouter cartridges. It worked, but it was also the last of the toggle-link Winnies. The 1886, a Browning design, came out a decade later and that was a terrific rifle capable of handling many of the big bore cartridges of the era.

 

[VancMike]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I should have been more clear about my bullets; I am using RNFP, as well as truncated cone bullets (Laser-Cast 158 gr. FNBB). But my original intent was to use my favorite bullet, i.e., SW-GC, a mold from NEI.

First, I've cast a couple lifetime's supply of them, and they shoot very accurately in all my revolvers, a Marlin 1894 and in my Browning low wall.

Secondly, in my low wall (24" barrel), my loads with that bullet have been averaging over 1800 fps. That seems a little fast for any non-GC bullet....my Laser-Cast manual doesn't show any 158 gr. 357 Mag. loads faster than 1625 fps. On the other hand, their manual shows several 125 gr. loads exceeding 1800 fps, so maybe it's OK.....

Anyway, I have lots of "proper" bullets on hand, and will keep playing around with various options.

Thanks too, DJ, for those who wanted photos. I haven't taken any of mine; here it is on Uberti's website: http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873_rifle_and_carbine.php As I stated, mine is the 20" barreled "Short Rifle." I really like my wood....it's very, very close to that old red-brown Winchester furniture.....and will be even closer when I knock off some shine.

At first, I really wanted the half-octagon barrel (to "match" my low wall!), but when I saw one in the flesh, the 18' barrel just looks too short in proportion to the long-receiver 1873. An 18" barrel looks great in later-designed rifles: 1892, the various Marlins, and Win 1894, and so on.

Those of you querying the toggle-link strength; yes, as we all know, that's why Winchester went prowling for something better and found Browning. Uberti literature assures us that they've used stronger steel than the original.

But....Uberti also warns against using anything other than factory loads (a rule I and everyone else in the world has broken), but I will be careful not to exceed factory loads.....this isn't a firearm I can reload with impunity.
________________________________________________________________________

A charity knocked on our door and asked if we could help with the floods in Pakistan. I said I'd love to, but our garden hose reaches out just to the end of our driveway.

 

[bergmen]

Off topic: Posts like this is why I so cherish my THR account, I learn so much everyday (and I've been hunting/shooting/reloading for about 50 years).

Driftwood Johnson, great photos and excellent descriptions of the action types. Very well done!

Dan

 

[VancMike]

Just a quick follow-up: careful observation (and some dummy cartridges) reveal that, in theory my '73 should load straight in like a torpedo tube, in fact, the loading block places the cartridge slightly below the chamber mouth, thus the jamming of SWC and bullets with a driving band in front of the crimping groove.

I'll continue to use RNFP, truncated cone and the usual jacketed bullets while I contemplate Red Cent's and other's advise. Thanks, all.