Semi Auto 308. SA SOCOM 16 , M1A or AR10???

[boricua9mm]

Roller-delayed blowback, such as those in the CETME/HK pattern guns, is not synonymous with harsh recoil. The MP5 is one of the lightest recoiling, smoothest running 9mm shoulder fired guns out there. The 5.56 guns are a pussycat.

The Cetme/HK style roller delayed guns in 7.62 NATO can vary a bit in terms of felt recoil. I have shot some contract manufacture 91s that were vicious, and I have shot some that were smooth as a 5.56 gun. This is dependent on the timing of the unlocking of the bolt. The timing can be altered by trying different locking pieces. It has been my experience that heaspacing can also contribute to the felt recoil of these guns. The headspace can be altered with different sized rollers that can be put into the bolt head. The collapsable A3 stock can increase the perception of recoil because it isn't as comfy on your face. In 9mm and 5.56, this isn't an issue for me, but it is more noticeable on the 7.62 NATO guns.

HK style roller delayed blowback guns are also very versatile. You can choose from a number of handguards. There are several stocks available, including ones with AR type tubes. There are various grip frames available (steel, polymer, ambidextrous), including one that also uses AR pistol grips and trigger guards. Reason I mention this is that most people don't realize how versatile these guns really are in terms of modularity.

 

[cwmoss]

I just went back to an Armalite Ar10 from a very nice M1A. AR10 is way easier to clean, easy to scope and are very accurate.
Just my .02
Daryl (cwmoss)

 

[henschman]

Yep... M-14 if you want irons, and .308 AR if you want optics. I don't care for SOCOMs, with their proprietary gas system, no CL barrel, and the fact that they're only made by SAI. If you must go with a carbine, I'd greatly prefer a Scout or Bush style, and one that comes with a Criterion CL barrel. Your weight criticism of the full size M14s is off base. A socomII with all its rails weighs a lot more than a standard 22" barreled M-14. The ones with heavy barrels are pigs, but the GI barrels are nice and light. I had an old Springfield with all GI parts in a new SAI plastic stock, and it only weighed 8.5 lbs. My current .308 AR weighs the same, but it only has an 18.5" barrel.

 

[barnbwt]

"Roller-delayed blowback, such as those in the CETME/HK pattern guns, is not synonymous with harsh recoil. The MP5 is one of the lightest recoiling, smoothest running 9mm shoulder fired guns out there. The 5.56 guns are a pussycat."

The MP5 is light recoiling because it was stacked against straight blowback guns like the UZI. There's not enough experience out there with true locked breech carbines like the TMP for good comparisons to have been made, but I'd be curious to hear how different they were from the MP5, since their reciprocating bolt mass is even lower than the HK. 556 can be smooth due to its short pressure impulse being amicable to delayed-blowback designs (which can only resist bolt thrust for a short time), but still the bolt must be considerably heavier than something like an AR or VZ58 bolt. Heavier bolt ultimately means harder recoil, or longer carrier travel (buffer).

Even as much as HK loved their roller-delay systems, they have gone almost universally (or is it truly universal at this point?) to locked breaches for their service caliber carbines (and I think their PDW-stuff is mostly gas or recoil op at this point, too). Maybe it's because it allows for a smaller lighter platform; maybe it's because the more complex machining and design means they can charge more

TCB

 

[Black Butte]

A vote for the FN FAL.

 

[BP Hunter]

I have the FN FAL STG 58 paratrooper type with folding stock that I am trading in for the Ruger SR762 tomorow. TheFAL is an excellent gun but it is just too heavy. I am so excited to pick it up tomorrow!

 

[Tejicano Loco]

I really think it comes down to personal preference- that's probably why you are seeing people casting votes for each of these systems.

I happen to have at least one of each system covered here : a SOCOM-16, a CETME, an Armalite AR-10, and a half-dozen FAL's I built back when that was the cheapest option.

I love the M-14 because that was the first rifle issued to me. I have a modified BM-59 Alpine stock for the SOCOM which makes it a really handy little package.

The AR was the rifle I carried the most in uniform so it feels like part of my anatomy - although the AR-10 is significantly heavier than the AR-15. This one has a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T scope on it.

I like FAL's a lot - my favorite go-to rifle is a FAL Para I built up with a combination of my favorite features. This one has a railed top-cover for a Trijicon ACOG which I will mount on it on my next trip home.

The CETME - well, that's just to have an example of the roller-delayed blowback system in my corral because I could never justify the price of an STG-45.

In my opinion the FAL Para is handy about the right weight for a carbine in this caliber. Holding one in each hand the FAL doesn't seem any heavier than the AR-10.

 

[baylorattorney]

Have you looked at the BAR? Classy, fast, fun, gun for many occasions from a trusted action.

 

[HexHead]

Here in Canada, AR's are restricted to range use and we can get good, non restricted, Chinese made Semi Auto M1A's for $500.00.....

We hate you. I'd much rather have a PolyTech M1A than a Springfield anyway. Just need to change out that faux flash hider.

 

[boricua9mm]

The MP5 is light recoiling because it was stacked against straight blowback guns like the UZI. There's not enough experience out there with true locked breech carbines like the TMP for good comparisons to have been made, but I'd be curious to hear how different they were from the MP5, since their reciprocating bolt mass is even lower than the HK.

You're forgetting one very important gun, the Colt SMG, which is widely used in the Federal prison system. When you compare the recoil of the Colt to the HK, the Colt feels downright abusive by comparison. The Colt owes its placement in those institutions to the direct manual of arms translation with our service rifle, as well as a purchase price of only $600. The MP5 smokes it in every category except "ease of cleaning." Roller-delayed blowback is FILTHY and you'd never complain about cleaning an AR ever again.

Heavier bolt ultimately means harder recoil, or longer carrier travel (buffer).

I disagree. Spring rates and recoil systems design go a long way to mitigate the felt recoil that is transmitted to the shooter. The SCAR-L and SCAR-H are perfect examples of this. They have beefy/heavy carriers, yet they are very, very mild while shooting. The SCARs may be hard on optics, but they are not hard on the shooter.

Even as much as HK loved their roller-delay systems, they have gone almost universally (or is it truly universal at this point?) to locked breaches for their service caliber carbines (and I think their PDW-stuff is mostly gas or recoil op at this point, too). Maybe it's because it allows for a smaller lighter platform; maybe it's because the more complex machining and design means they can charge more

Not sure where you are getting this info, but HK still produces the MP5, even though they tried to convince everyone that the UMP was the way to go. Their efforts to discontinue the MP5 failed miserably. The roller-locked guns are more expensive to produce and they require a lot of attention to detail. The polymer offerings are easier and cheaper to make, which is exactly why HK tried to push them on Law Enforcement and the Military. The embedded logistics, training and knowledge of the AR pattern prevailed, which left the 416 and 417 as HK's final answer. At this point, HK has no reason to produce 5.56 and 7.62 roller-delayed blowback guns because it is cost-prohibitive and the market wants the 416/417.

This takes nothing away from an HK91 pattern rifle in the context of this discussion. In a sense, all the guns being talked about here are obsolete by current Military & LE standards. When we start talking about the SCAR-H, the 417/MR762, LMT MWS, Larue OBR and the SR25 then the landscape changes dramatically. These aren't 1950s era rifles anymore.

 

[fragout]

There is another 16in bbl M14 other than the Socom to choose from nowadays.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/fultonarmoryusriflecal762mmm14-1-1-1-2.aspx

No proprietary gas system, Criterion 16in chrome lined bbl, std 22in bbl front sight options galore, threaded muzzle allows you to choose between virtually any flash hider or muzzle brake you want....and/or a can if your state allows it.

As with most other M14 type rifles, you end up with more options when it comes to rifle stocks than any other design out there, to include the AR's. (I could list them, but it is just as easy to google "photos of M14/M1A rifle stocks".....so you can see the variations out there for yourself.)

Mounting optics ( Yes, the M14 was designed with optics in mind, but iron sights as the primary means for aiming)... aren't all that difficult when you start out with a receiver that is within geometric specifications to that of an M14 service rifle receiver, regarding the areas of said receiver that allow scope mount installation.Even then, it is not that difficult to pick up a $5.00 measure kit from Sadlak, measure it, then send it to them and have them build the mount for you.
( With that being said.....the AR's are easier in this dept, and cheaper, as their is no need to buy a mount first. The only M14 that can match this would be an LRB Arms M25.)
However....... the iron sights on the M1A/M14 cant be beat. Some are close, but none are better IMO. You want a fun gun and already have bolt guns with optics? Sounds like a no brainer to me....lol. Add a cotton M14 sling to the rifle, learn how to use it as a shooting aid and go have fun at the range with it. ( I started out this way, and love shooting it so much that I use mine for hunting.)

As far as Springfield Armory Incorporated (SAI) goes, I cant say anything bad about their M1A's......as I haven't found anything wrong with any of them I have owned, still own, and have handled, shot, and hunted with. ( Around 25 different M1A's total....and too include 3 different Socom types.)
My clan has 2 different M1A's (A Scout and a Socom) with over 12000rds documented through both as of now.( Yes....We like to shoot a lot) Both are all SAI part guns, and neither show any abnormal wear, broken parts as of yet. As with any other non "match" M1A, they eat any "safe to fire" 7.62x51mm or 308 ammunition, and are not all that picky when it comes to any one type of ammo. (Other than the "high energy/light magnum loads)
The lifetime warranty on their rifles is 2nd to none, and their customer service is at the top of the heap too boot.

FWIW...... The cost of the rifle,optics, mags, etc...... is a small portion as compared to the cost of ammunition in the long run. (Obviously, this will be the same no matter what 7.62x51mm semiautomatic rifle you end up with). As compared to 22lr, one is gonna spend quite a bit more for this ammo. Handloading does save $$, and is worth it from my experience.
My point here is that you should buy exactly what you want the first time, and don't settle for something less simply because it's cheaper. My example = A very specific LRB Arms M14SA that was built to my exact specifications with very specific NIW parts that took me over 2 yrs to come up with. I'll never get tired of it, never sell it, and when I get too old to shoot it, the rifle will be passed down to one of my youngsters to enjoy.
On the flip side, I have an M14S Norinco build that cost me less $$ than buying a DPMS 7.62NATO AR now, and feel the same about it as the LRB.

In regards to overall weight, I personally hump mine all over creation as well as stalk hunt hogs with them year around, and in all kinds of weather. ( One of my lighter M14 type rifles = an M1A-A1 Bush rifle (18in bbl) in a modified GI synthetic stock... which weighs out at 8.1 lbs unloaded with sling).
More important to me is how the rifle's weight balances out while in my hands. I'll take a well balanced 8lbs rifle over a nose heavy 7 lbs rifle any day. The 1 lbs difference doesn't matter to me. (In 20 years from now, I might change my mind, but not today.....lol)

Over the years, I have owned several different types of semiautomatic rifles, but personally prefer the M14/M1A over any of the others. ( Ergonomics, how the controls are laid out, and especially the rifle's iron sights.)
I would suggest you try a few different types on for size yourself beforehand if possible......as first hand experience behind the 2 your interested in should be the ultimate deciding factor in the end IMO.

One last suggestion..... If you compare the 2 rifles against one another, keep it as even across the board as you can.... ( Ie..... comparing an M1A Socom to a 20inch heavy bbl 7.62NATO AR of some kind would not be a very "balanced" comparison. Same with a 16in 7.62x51mm AR carbine next to an M1A Super Match.)

Good luck and let us know what you decide in the end. Pics would be great as well.

 

[Robert101]

LR308 vote here. DPMS makes some very affordable and accurate 308s.

 

[Rule3]

Thanks for all these replies. My head is spinning even more.

I am leaning more towards a basic AR 10 now. The Fulton Armory mention just above is certainly nice (as they all are) but more than I care to spend. I could and certainly would like but it just would not be cost effective for the amount I would shoot it. Even reloading compared to my handguns it's close to 10 times the powder usage per round, Projectiles are more also.

I need to limit it to less than $2K. $1200-$1500 would be more inline for me.

 

[LebbenB]

I need to limit it to less than $2K. $1200-$1500 would be more inline for me.

With that budget in mind, the brands for a .308 AR would be S&W, Rock River, and Armalite.

The S&W will accept KAC pattern mags, like the PMag. The RRA accepts modified FAL mags , the Armalite AR10A uses modified M14 mags, and the Armalite AR10B uses KAC pattern mags.

 

[fragout]

According to their website, the Armalite AR10A utilizes Pmags now.

The Gen1 mags Armalite used to utilize were converted M14 magazines, and the Gen2 mags they have out now are of their own design.

Back in 2005, Armalite sold off their huge stockpile of new, unmodified M14 magazines for $25 bucks each.

If memory serves, I bought a bunch from them at $20 bucks a pop, as they had a deal going at 20 each if you bought 20 mags or more.

All that I received from them were USGI M14 magazines from most of the OEM M14 manufacturers of the time.
Mine showed up inside a clear ziplock bag per mag.

44mag.com, LRB Arms, Midway USA, and Brownwells sell the current production Checkmate Ind. M14 magazines at around 25-29 bucks each NIW. ( The same mag that SAI sells, minus their logo on the mags of course.)

CMI also puts out a stainless steel version of the M14 20rd magazine. The follower is coated in black Teflon.

 

[LebbenB]

According to their website, the Armalite AR10A utilizes Pmags now.

Yeah, I got it backwards. The AR10B uses a mag based on the M14 mag, the AR10A uses the KAC pattern.

 

[Motega]

FAL all the way.
Realistically, anything that can hit a man sized target consistently at 300 yards is all I need- any farther than that and you probably have the option not to engage.

The biggest realistic consideration in my life is ease of cleaning. In handguns I LOVE my 1911 .45 but I don't shoot it much because it's such a pain to clean.

The FAL breaks open like a shotgun and it actually thrives on a little bit of neglect, the gas system seals a little better with some gunk in it (as long as it isn't corrosive). Anyway that's my experience.

I think that any actual need for combat is kind of silly compared to how easy it is to maintain and clean a rifle.

 

[barnbwt]

FALs are easy to build, too (well, easier, anyway).
They're also a hair cheaper lately; I actually see a few on Gunbroker at or below 1000$ right now

"You're forgetting one very important gun, the Colt SMG, which is widely used in the Federal prison system. When you compare the recoil of the Colt to the HK, the Colt feels downright abusive by comparison. The Colt owes its placement in those institutions to the direct manual of arms translation with our service rifle, as well as a purchase price of only $600. The MP5 smokes it in every category except "ease of cleaning." Roller-delayed blowback is FILTHY and you'd never complain about cleaning an AR ever again."
The Colt's a straight blowback, so my guess is it has a heavier bolt that also sees the higher bolt thrust --hence the recoil. Didn't know about that one's widespread usage, though; I always thought they were a niche thing. As filthy as delay/straight blowback runs, they seem to thrive on it, seeing how they are darn near un-killable

And I should have specified "rifle" calibers not "service" calibers in HKs offerings ; I'm not aware that they still make any G3 variants, but instead their assorted piston-driven rotating-bolt locked-breech platforms. By PDWs I mean their MP7 which is gas operated; but yes, the MP5 is still so widely used and satisfactory that they will probably make or offer support for it for the next 100yrs (heck, they still use Madsen's in the favela's )

Those are in 308, btw, so relevant to the thread . My point was (to bring it around) that roller delay is no longer popular among the large rifle caliber platforms being offered today. Weight/size vs simplicity/reliability being the primary drivers (despite what HK may say, MP5s and G3s aren't particularly tough or expensive to make, but their sheetmetal/steel casting construction isn't adaptable to aluminum/CNC which has become even cheaper than stamping/welding)

"I need to limit it to less than $2K. $1200-$1500 would be more inline for me."
FNAR 16" fluted barrel--1100$

I sorta-kinda retract my suggesting of the FNAR on this budget, since they have apparently begun to appreciate (finally). They had been just under 1K for several years, now it seems they are just over 1K. Optics will probably push you beyond your budget unless it's something basic like a Prostaff (which I had and worked great) or cheap (like a Konus M30, which I have now and is working well). I haven't had a chance to try it out with my "new" EOtech 553, but I'll see how it does in a more carbine-ey roll at some point. Mine's the long barrel, so a fast sight makes even less sense, but the 16" could probably be made fairly handy with a good sling (not included). A Bubba or skilled soul could easily shed about 3lbs by replacing the stock with a lightweight one that has less solid rubber and doesn't extend out quite so far (and has aluminum instead of steel rails). A 5 or 10rnd mag drops another .5lb or so (they're dense). Mags still run in the 50$ range but I've only ever needed three to burn enough money for one day

I not sure if any 308 semi is really in range at the budget specified if we're talking sights as well. The MAS 49/56 usually runs about 700$, so it'd be a strong contender on the cheap front.

TCB

 

[Torian]

Although the standard setup on the M1A/M14 is irons, it is certainly doable to put an optic on there. I have an ARMS mount on mine. Very solid. I'm not a fan of scope mounts forward of the receiver either.



If I did get a .308 in an AR platform, would go with a POF (piston driven)

 

[Rule3]

Isn't the FNH FNAR, just a a Browning hunting rifle in "sheeps" clothing AKA a combat looking furniture?

A lot of replies mentioned the MP5 and roller block but those a 9mm or handgun calibers so the recoil in a rifle caliber would seem to me, brutal.

I have some good optics I can use, so my budget is for the rifle. I can get good deals at my LGS ordering anything that is in stock, having know the owner and his parents for over 20 years.So my price is not some crazy MSRP that some places charge.

 

[barnbwt]

"Isn't the FNH FNAR, just a a Browning hunting rifle in "<wolfs'>" clothing AKA a combat looking furniture?"
As much as a Mini 30 is an M1 Garand in "sheeps' clothing" (accurized receiver/barrel, stock change, and detachable box magazine with ambidextrous release, and integral sight rail)

JM Browning's grandson designed the "new" BAR, FWIW. Let's hear Armalite claim that.

Looking at features instead of military connotations, you get;
-Time proven action (the BAR has done fine as a general purpose gun for over 50 years, now, in all kinds of environments for all kinds of owners --longer than any currently-serving military platform )
-Factory guaranteed 1MOA accuracy from the box
-20, 10, and 5 round high quality steel magazines
-Short stroke tappet piston gas action (more like the SCAR than an AR or AK)
-Ambi mag release, cross bolt safety ) or ), right side charging handle
-Requires cleaning every 1000rnds on average (but is complicated enough to disassembled for a full cleaning that you wouldn't put corrosive through it)
-Only requires basic breach/bore cleaning between sessions as preferred
-Adjustable stock (comb height, LOP, cast, drop) and a folder & straight are available
-Aluminum receiver, fairly heavy profile fluted barrel with match crown (may be a drawback if lightest weight is the goal)
-Steel rails galore, if you're into that sort of thing
-Gentle on brass (at least mine is, though the case head does leave little streaks where it taps the receiver on its first rotation)

The much-maligned disassembly isn't as bad as is made out. Finding the right screwdriver for the forearm screw is the worst part. No, you won't want to remove the forearm and go to town in the field, but it is easily done and understood on a well-lit card-table. It's just that the various parts that make up the bolt carrier, bolt, and piston don't come out as "modules" like a military gun; they come out sequentially. The action is not more complicated, it just requires more steps to access things. Fortunately, the short stroke piston action is among the cleanest ways to operate a firearm (recoil operating being the cleanest) and the "ordeal" --all of 20minutes, btw -- is only needed about once a year or 1000rnds. FNH says to send the rifle to their armorer, but whatever.

All other platforms can be modified to compete with eachother in these various areas, but the FNAR comes with many great qualities from the box. No ARMS mount, no scout mount, no claw mount, no paddle mag release, no drop-in trigger required. Easy peazy.

"A lot of replies mentioned the MP5 and roller block but those a 9mm or handgun calibers so the recoil in a rifle caliber would seem to me, brutal."
It's not as bad as the theory indicates in all cases, due to factors like stock design and the fact the guns tend to be heavier than some other options.

"I have some good optics I can use, so my budget is for the rifle."
AR10, FAL, and FNAR, in that order, if you can find them for around the 1G$ mark. FAL vs AR10 is probably a wash, both are such great platforms that preference is probably dictated by whether you have fond memories with either. M1's are great rifles, but not as suited for customizing into a platform rivaling the others without higher investment, and cost more up front, too. FAL has cheapest mags, then AR10, then FNAR (though not by much at ~$50+).

TCB

 

[Rule3]

Tell me how you really feel!