Semi-Auto .308

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ratt_finkel

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I've been thinking about picking up a semi-auto .308 lately.

I have a .223 AR and Mosin-Nagant (un-fired by me :eek:)

I have a personal policy of not purchasing any firearm before shooting it. But I can't shake the itch of getting one of these battle rifles. It would be used solely for plinking. The options for optics or upgrades would be nice, but not necessary. If money were not an issue, I'd be all over a soccom M1A. But I have other hobbies that chew up most of my disposable income. So...I've been thinking about the following.

AR in .308 - a friend swears by his DPMS, but I know they get a bad rep on the forums.

FN Fal - which outfit here? I think Century does most of the imports, but I've heard mixed reviews about them too.

HK G3 series - can't find much about civilian versions, but I know I've seen them pop up on gun broker.

I'd really appreciate any insight into these firearms for purely recreational purposes.

Jeremy
 
I'm a LR308 newbie but my DPMS TAC20 has been great. I just mounted a new Nikon 6x18 40MM scope and plan to hit the range later this week. I've only fired about 300 rounds so far but not one misfeed with my reloads (that's basically all I shoot). I hear about a higher quality out there but I have no complaints about my DPMS shooter. Due to the heavy barrel, and 308 confirguration the rifle is on the heavy side at about 12 lbs. Even with that, I'm happy as can be. The 308 round hits with authority.
 
I've fired all three.

AR is best in Ergos

FAL has great ergos and good handling

G3 / PTR91 is very reliable, but the ergos are not as good as some others, and the handling is the clumsiest of the three. It's probably the heaviest of the three as well.

IF I were making the choice, I would prefer them in order of:
1) FAL - best all around gun on the list IMO

2) PTR-91 - I can forgive the weight because the super cheap and common mags

3) 308 AR / AR10 - Most expensive overall of the platforms. You're going to want to put an optic on it, and the mags are usually expensive.

Just my opinion.
 
I'd throw the M1A in there for consideration, too. I have an M1A Socom16, and a Century FAL.

The FAL is big and heavy. Fun to shoot. Mine (perhaps because it was a Century) had a small issue with the sights- the front sight post was too tall, so that even with the front sight dialed all the way down as far as it would go, it shot low. For me it shot to point of aim if I cranked the rear sight up to its 600 yard setting. I'm in the process of fixing the front sight so that the rear sight setting will be normal.
Another issue with the FAL is that (in my experience, and also I'd heard this around) finding reliable magazines is a problem. Mine is a metric pattern FAL, and the first several metric FAL mags I bought from different places were TERRIBLE. Terrible to the point of not even fitting into the receiver (some of them), and not feeding properly if I did manage to jam it in there. I did some internet research and "they" said that real milsurp FAL mags would work. I located some Austrian surplus ones (cost more than the generic ones) and what do you know, they do indeed work properly. One nice little thing about the FAL relative to the M1A is that the FAL is very easy to field strip. Not that the M1A is hard, but it is a bit more work than the FAL.

M1A- nice rifle. I like the M1A and M1 peep sights, easy to adjust and no funny business like with my Century FAL. Sight it in and fuggedaboutit. I like the scout rail on the Socom (and I think their Squad Scout also), perfect place for a red dot. M1As can be tempermental about magazines too. Don't get the cheap $15 ones from various places, at least, the ones I got sort of worked but had reliability feeding problems. Fortunately it's easier to find good M14 mags. On a friend's advice, I got some CMI (Checkmate Industries) ones for about $25 each (last year) and they've been good for me.

(edit) I like them both. If cost is an issue, the FAL can be had for about 1/2 the cost of an M1A.
 
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I own a FAL, HK91, AR-10 and a M14 If I had to keep just one it would be a tough choice between the FAL and the AR-10. The AR-10 is more accurate and the controls are a little better, but the FAL fits me better and the adjustable gas system is nice. My FAL has a 16 inch barrel, so it's the lightest and handiest of the four.

Since you are just planning on using it for plinking the differences become less important. Anyway, here are my thoughts on each:

HK-91 - Way to big and heavy. The safety and magazine release are difficult to reach unless your hands are huge. On the other hand it is accurate and reliable. Also an original HK will be super expensive. There might be some cheaper options though.

M-14/M1A - Kind of an outdated design. Placement of the safety, magazine release and charging handle make operation a little awkward. Had some reliability issues with mine until I worked out what powder to use in it. By far the pickiest on ammo.

FAL - Probably my only complaint would be the magazine release. Like the other three, the magazines have to be rocked in and don't drop free. The adjustable gas system will allow you to run just about any ammo out of it. My FAL is a little less accurate, but that might just be the short barrel.

AR-10 - By far my most accurate 308. Since the layout is the same as the AR-15 all the controls will be the same for you. Of course since ARs are so common these days, you won't draw as much attention at the range. People get a lot more excited when they see a FAL or HK.

I'm wondering what your budget is though. Good semi-auto 308s aren't cheap. With any of these rifles, there are a lot of different manufactures and some are better than others. You do usually get what you pay for.
 
This is all excellent info. I'm a smaller guy, 5'6" and 140lbs. I weight train so I'm stronger than most twice my size. But physical reach and small hands gives me some concern on the larger rifles.

I'd love to spend as little as possible, but realize too that you get what you pay for. I'd really prefer to stay under a grand. And the closer to 500 the better. The M1A's all seem to be 1.5k or better. So I think those will probably be off the list.

I've seen many FAL's in this price range. But I'm clueless on which ones are junk and which ones are solid.
 
FAL, or a spendier .308 AR platform (wouldn't trust a DPMS as far as I could throw it), I.e. Noveske, KAC, LaRue, LMT, POF, etc. If you're a southpaw, the AR-10 can be made easier to run than the other options AFAIK.

An STG58 Austrian FAL from DS arms is a little over $1k, I'd call that a good option.
 
What's the difference between the CETME and the FAL? I guess I thought they were the same. They look very similar, but the CETME seems to be much cheaper. Also, doesn't seem to have the ugly carry handle.

As a side note, this is almost exactly what I want.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=261405208

EDIT: Sorry, for the newb question. It looks like the CETME is a spanish copy of the HK.
 
FAL: the DSA is where it is at. They are the "FAL People" in the US. I love mine.

HK: the PTR91 is where it is at. They are the "HK People" in the US. I wish I had gotten one of those instead of the CIA or whatever junk it was that I got for $400. It wasn't worth it, even "new".

DPMS: I had a LRR when it first came out. Wasn't impressed. 1-2MOA was best I could get with different loads of match ammo (which may be okay given the rifle) and it had a lot of feeding problems.

For the .308 AR, I wish I had gone with Armalite. I think they are where it's at when it comes to .308 AR's. The LMT looks nice and there are others, but the Armalite seems the best bang for the buck.

For a larger than 5.56mm AR, I love my Grendel. Uses standard AR components, but fires a wicked calibre that shines at long range and hits a lot harder.
 
Take a look at the .308 Saiga; specifically the 21" long barrel version. For a semi-auto .308, they offer the most bang for the buck.

They're inexpensive, surprisingly accurate, very reliable and user convertible to the original AK configuration.

Negatives? Well the trigger's rather strange, but that'll be corrected if you convert; good accuracy requires good ammo; kinda muzzle heavy; they're ugly.

The short barreled version can be had for under $500 new and they are accurate too, but add "loud" to the list of negatives .
 
Yeah definitely look at the Saiga .308 if you want something around $500. Also if you're not exactly stuck on the .308, you might consider an M-1 Garand from the CMP. You can get them for $500, which is a real bargain. If you get your ammo from the CMP, right now the price of .30-06 surplus is pretty much a wash versus .308 surplus... and ballistically, they are almost identical. I have a $500 Field Grade from them, and it is a wonderful shooter and so much fun.

Also if .308 ARs and FALs are in your price range, you shouldn't necessarily write off the M-14. Norinco and Polytech M-14s can be found for under a grand, and you can occasionally find a used Springfield or something for a couple hundred less than the new ones go for. Also, you can shop around for a new one and find somebody that is selling them cheap... I got an M1A Standard for $1250 brand new a couple years ago from a dealer down in Florida.

I also have plenty of experience with all the various battle rifles, and the M-14 pattern is my favorite. It is a great combination of accuracy and reliability, and it has the best sights and trigger of any of them. The sights, especially, are really head and shoulders above any other battle rifle. They are the same sights as the M1 garand also. Heck, the M1 is pretty much the same thing except it takes clips instead of mags.

If it were me, I would try if at all possible to get an M-14 of some sort; but if that was too far out of my price range for the time being, I would "make do" with a CMP M1, and have just about as good of a rifle for $5 or $600. Also, to switch an M1 over to .308, all you need is a new barrel. CMP sells them too.
 
Check out FN AR's while you're at it. Moderately priced for a 20-round fed semi-auto 308, and unbelievably accurate.

They're the same level of precision and capacity as the reknowned H&K PSG-1 but 1/10th the price and readily available.
 
Trent said:
Check out FN AR's while you're at it. Moderately priced for a 20-round fed semi-auto 308, and unbelievably accurate.

They're the same level of precision and capacity as the reknowned H&K PSG-1 but 1/10th the price and readily available.
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You mean the SCAR? That is a little out of the OP's budget. Although I agree, it is probably the best AR style .308 out there. I want one, and I'd like a custom barrel in .260 to go with it.

For accuracy, you want the AR platform. It is the most accurate of all the semi .308's, and the more you spend, generally the more accurate they get. For reliability, the FAL is hard to beat.

The HK vs. the FAL in ergonomics... The FAL is heavier and although it was designed to be ergonomic, it lacks in some areas that American shooters in particular will notice. Like left hand charging, long reach to the handguard, and it is heavy. The HK is a little better overall in comfort and doesn't weigh as much, but it has the most recoil of the .308 rifles. If you load or reload, forget about the HK, it ruins brass as a matter of course. The FAL isn't too bad on it, and the adj. gas system helps with the recoil, ejection, etc. Real nice that it has that, but all of FN's gas piston stuff does as far as I know. They both have thin handguards which must be a European thing... This is odd for an American shooter too. The FAL has a VERY low sight line. It was designed this way so you can keep your head down when shooting and maintain a lower profile. This and the grip are actually quite natural.

I guess one big deciding factor is whether or not you plan on using optics. If yes, then DSA makes a decent scope mount. They make the only good one in fact. I have an Elcan on mine, which I think is good enough for the accuracy of the FAL (which on average is about 4MOA --FAL and HK weren't known for phenomenal accuracy, the American rifles have always had that trait, even though we don't teach our soldiers how to utilize it). If you want accuracy and optics, you are pretty much stuck with the AR platforms.

Now that isn't to say the FAL can't BE accurate. I specialize in SDM rifles. Accurized battle and assault rifles, I kind of collect and build them alike. The FAL has been the most difficult project in this respect, but I have weaseled 1MOA and believe it or not, actually less... But I do get a flier from time to time that ruins the group. I have a DSA STG58, one of their early ones that had a brand new Steyr barrel. IF you can find one of these in particular, I highly recommend it if you want a good FAL. That Steyr barrel is better than the new ones they use! With or without the Steyr barrel, the STG58 goes for about $800-$1000 depending on use (and more for NIB). Not a bad deal considering the cost of their "higher end" rifles in my opinion.

For $500? You DO get what you pay for here, and especially for that price. $500 got me some junk I wish I hadn't bought. .308 rifles aren't cheap. The Saiga... Just not a fan of those, although I'd like to have a Romanian PSL because it is an SDM rifle. To get a decent .308 rifle, you are looking at about $1000, plus or minus $200, or $800-$1200. It is really worth saving up for the right one.

If you want that M14, you should save and get that instead. It is the one I didn't mention, but it is the jack of all trades --decent accuracy (but not as good as the AR dollar for dollar) ergonomics are traditional US, very traditional in fact, as rugged as the FAL and HK and it is less heavy than the FAL but moreso than the HK. If you are patient and keep looking, you can find one now and again for $1000 or so.

If you get something in .308 because you couldn't afford the one you wanted, you'll still want that M14, that doesn't go away because you got a .308. Only difference is you'll have a piece of junk you don't like and will be further away from the one you do want. Been there, done that. I'd save and get the one you want. I bet there will be a lot of them for sale this Christmas time, check out your local shooting forums. You find more deals that are close by and some have just great prices (like almost new $600 ACOG scopes!)

For your size, now that I know that, I'd recommend the AR or HK based on that. Or even perhaps the M14. But the FAL will be difficult at best, it is a cumbersome weapon and I'm 6'+ and 230lbs. The M4 style AR's, those would most likely be the most comfortable to you.

Again, good luck!
 
Pretty sure Trent meant the FN FNAR, not the SCAR. It's based off their BAR with attention to accuracy and was partly made to compete for selection as a duty rifle for police snipers. The main thing I don't like about mine is that taking it down for cleaning is more involved than an AR-type rifle.

IMG_2426.jpg

ScreenHunter_05Mar221547.jpg

I also have an Armalite AR-10 that is a nice rifle. If you have the coin a LaRue OBR is fantastic. I have one in 5.56/.223 (and it shot sub 0.40" five shot groups out of the box), but I don't have one in 7.62/.308. My Armalite shoots a little under 1 MOA. The FNAR is about 0.60-0.80 MOA consistently, sometimes less.

ArmaliteAR-10800600.jpg
 
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I have a Saiga.308-ver.21 with a nice set of Russian Birch furniture (thumbhole stock).
It is a solid 2 MOA shooter with cheap Tula, polymer coated, steel cased FMJ. It does a little better with some pricier commercial hunting rounds, particularly AMAX offerings.

The standard Saiga .308 is indeed a fine semi auto rifle.
Sure it needs conversion, but it is the easiest to convert, and part of the fun is picking out new furniture and accessories.

vortex3.jpg
vortex1-1.jpg
 
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Strykervet said:
You mean the SCAR? That is a little out of the OP's budget. Although I agree, it is probably the best AR style .308 out there.
Click to expand...

No, no, no and no.

I mean the FNAR.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/group.asp?gid=FNG022&cid=FNC01

I can't fathom WHY these haven't caught the gun world on fire.

Semi-automatic, short gas piston operated, 20 round magazine capacity, adjustable for length of pull and cheek weld, MIL STD 1913 compatible rails, tested to 10,000 round lifetime...

... And sub 1 MOA accuracy out of the box with match ammo.

That's the same standards of accuracy that H&K PSG-1's were held to.

They're unbelievably accurate for a semi-auto - beat most bolt guns I've owned in the past.

The ONLY downside is every 2000 rounds you gotta send it to FNH for inspection and replacement of any worn pats - they state right in the op manual they want all of the FNAR's to continue to be highly accurate throughout their lifespan. :)

It's a win/win.

EDIT: I do own one, and I *do* sound like an FN marketer. But I don't own a shop anymore and couldn't sell you one if I wanted to (sure as heck ain't getting mine), so I'm as objective as one can be. :)

I, like the poster above, get great groups out of it. Last time I took it to the range, using Sierra 180 Gr. Matchkings with Nosler custom (premium) brass, I shot a 1.25" *10* shot group at 300 yards.
 
(Yes, breakdown for cleaning isn't as straightforward as an AR, and for detailed cleaning you have to send it in to FNH. Same applies with the SCAR though, detailed breakdown voids the warranty unless you're a registered armorer - you're supposed to send those in to FNH every 5000 rounds.)
 
I was thinking of posting something similar. I would like a semi .308. I don't own any AR15's so I'm not married to the architecture. What are the better ones in regards to keeping clean? Which are easy to take down?

I suppose when it comes down to all else being equal (or close), the one which has the least amount of post-clean-up time would win in my book.
 
.308 Saiga's AK platform cleans MUCH easier than even a AR.

May not be as inherently accurate as an AR, but it holds solid Minute of Man out to 500.
Click to expand...

How about the SCAR, ACR, M1A, etc?
 
i would go with an m1a 18" or 16" then a saiga 308. i have a 18" mia & i bought a socom also, but if i had it to do again i would have gone with the saiga. even though i love my 18" m1a, if i wanted an additional 16" 308 it would have been a saiga 308.
 
You need to define "easier to clean".

I don't have to do much of anything to the FNAR except the barrel and take a bit of gunk out off the piston.

So SAIGA/AR platform are easier to dissasemble, sure, but NOT easier to clean. Lots of nooks and crannies in those platforms to clean out.

AK style Saiga action = lots of crud blowing back - loose tolerances lets gas get by.

AR style AR10 platform = lots of crud getting dumped right where the ammo feeds.

M1A = Not much crud at all, but heavy, expensive, and out-shot by more modern rifles (unless you drop a couple grand on a national match, those will keep pace, maybe)

ACR I can't comment on, haven't owned one.

SCAR I can't comment on YET, ask me Friday after I take mine out the first time - we'll be putting 300 rounds through it in one afternoon, I can take pics of the dirty spots. If it's anything like the FS2000 (which I clean about once every 500 shots, and it don't need much), it should be pretty sanitary. :)

FNAR is lightweight, highly accurate, takes high cap 20 round magazines, operates on a proven reliable action (it's based off the BAR design), comes in heavy and light barrel versions, has bipod and sling attachment points, has side rails for accessories (laser, light, whatever), has a moderately sized top rail for fitting optics, and ships with user changeable cheek and buttpads inserts to adjust comb height and length of pull.

It's only 0.2 lbs heaver than a SCAR 17S and costs about 40% as much. Compared to an M1A national match, the FNAR is much cheaper, and you don't have to go out of your way to bolt optics on to a gun which wasn't really designed for it in the first place.

Did I mention you could shoot the nuts off a coyote at a quarter mile with one? :)

It's a completely underrated firearm.

The downsides:

#1: It's brutal on brass. No shell deflector so brass necks get bent when they bounce against the receiver.
#2: It's pretty difficult to swap mags prone, and mags are a tight fit (at least on my specimen). Gotta really smack them in there to seat them.
#3: Not a fan of the button style safety.
#4: On hot days, on the light barrel model at least (don't own the heavy), barrel whip will come in to play.
#5: The thing is so light, it's front heavy.
#6: Magazines are EXPENSIVE.
#7: Dis-assembly is a bit tricky.

It certainly wouldn't make a great CQB gun, but unless you're storming flats in Baghdad, don't see what a loss that is for civilians like us. I wouldn't personally use a 308 for home defense because I've got 5 kids, several animals, and some neighbors that I like. :)

This being said, the FNAR will take down targets at range, and do it very, very well.
 
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