Senate Republicans Pushing for a Plan on Ending the War in Iraq

[bg]

Well according to this, not so fast..But then again I guess it's 6 of 1
half a dozen of the other.
http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTEybGQxYTN0BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAN2Mjk4BHRtcGwDdjI5OC1jc3M-/s/261882

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Don't let anyone tell you different, we are in just as big a fight for our way of life as we were in 1942. If we pull out now, there will be more attacks in the US and Patriot Act III and IV, which the American people will demand, will destroy our way of life.

So if this is a war to defend us against terrorism, here are some questions that would need to be answered:

1. Is there a credible terrorist threat? Are American lives at risk?
2. If there is indeed a credible threat, is the war making the situation better or worse or no different?

On 1) above, I don't see any evidence of a credible threat. We had one serious attack four years ago, an attack which could have been prevented by passengers and pilots having an attitude of self defense and responsibility for defense. Since then we have had some arrests, some of which have been mistakes and some for very early stage "plots" that were mostly just talk. And even if we do have terrorist attacks, so what? So what if 100 Americans a year die in terrorist attacks? We have 30k plain old murders a year. There's nothing special or different about terrorist muder vs. plain old murder. And this war is costing about a thousand American lives a year, maybe more, so we're not even coming out ahead on that.

On 2) above, it seems like preventing terrorism can be done more effectively at home, mainly by alert and involved citizens, and secondarily through law enforcement. A diffused threat needs a diffused response, not a military response. I think our actions in Iraq are the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has ever had. Every time an American mistake kills an innocent Iraq, Al Qaeda has ten greiving family members to recruit from.

 

[Camp David]

The "War" in Iraq and my doorstep both have the same rather tenuous relationship with 9-11: very little.

Suggest you research the name: Zarquawi

 

[wingnutx]

I think we can make a lasting difference. We can't by turning tail and fleeing, though.

Actually fleeing will make a difference, it will reinforce the notion that killing Americans and bombing civilians is a good way to get what you want.

 

[Waitone]

A few observations in no particular order.

--The 60's fascists who engineered US defeat in Vietnam continued to breed and now we are into their third generation. Seems the gene pool is just as strong now as it was then.

--The political poles (correct spelling--I refer to extremes of a continuum, not surveys) in America seem to be the same Vietnam fascists on one hand and corporate fascism on the other hand. One pole has no clue as to the proper use of force in the pursuit of foreign policy. The other pole just wants war without regard to the lessons of history as to the elements of successful war.

--Both political parties seem to be responding to pressure not being applied by the the taxpaying class. I don't think we are seeing republican actions based on polling data. Something else is influencing their actions.

--One political party (Democrats) is an increasingly virulent ideology. The other political party has no evident ideology. I can't really formulate anything for which republicans stand.

--Democrats now pose a direct threat to my life, liberty and freedom. Republicans flat-out scare the hell out of me because I don't have a clue as to what they believe. I can't even guess as to their belief based on what they do.

We live in interesting time.

 

[wingnutx]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Iraq had zero connection to any of the 9/11 terrorists, that does not mean they had no connection to anti-US terrorists in general.

Iraq harbored terrorists that killed Americans in the first trade tower attack, they harbored Abu Nidal, and also Abu Abbas. Any one of those by itself is reason to take them out.

 

[seeker_two]

WASHINGTON, Nov. 14 - In a sign of increasing unease among Congressional Republicans over the war in Iraq, the Senate is to consider on Tuesday a Republican proposal that calls for Iraqi forces to take the lead next year in securing the nation and for the Bush administration to lay out its strategy for ending the war.

Wow....government demanding it hold itself accountable...what a concept...

I think Bush's exit strategy involves surviving the next three years in office w/o a serious bungle...then dump the problem in Hillary's lap... :banghead:

 

[wingnutx]

Our strategy is to get the Iraqis to the point where they can stand on their own, and we are doing a very good job of that. It's not something as easy to visually demonstrate as taking ground or producing body counts, and certainly makes for boring news copy, but it is what we are doing.

 

[Beren]

I keep hearing about how "freedom isn't free." I agree, but the real war is not in Iraq. The real war is here at home. "Our way of life is threatened." Our way of life - the concept of personal liberty - has been under assault for over a hundred years!

The enemy isn't an Iraqi, and the enemy cannot be defeated with violence.

The enemy is your neighbor or family member who thinks their concept of morality should be imposed upon you under color of law, even when your actions cause no harm to others. Sure, it's okay to drink yourself blind, but don't you dare shoot some cocaine in your arm!

The enemy is your coworker who thinks it's fine that the federal government takes a chunk of your paycheck every week, and a larger chunk at the end of the year.

The enemy is your girlfriend who doesn't understand how the popular election of U.S. Senators has unbalanced our Congress and accelerated our fall towards bread and circuses.

The enemy is your brother, who doesn't think you should have a machinegun because you "might" hurt someone. He would, after all, and he projects his lack of self-control on the world.

We need out of Iraq. We need out of the world in general. Avoiding foreign entanglements, except in the times of most dire necessity, is the only way to protect our freedoms long-term.

As RotM says, know your enemy. Know that education is the only way to fight them.

 

[wingnutx]

It's quite possible to have both internal and external enemies at the same time. It would be amazing if we didn't.

 

[Ezekiel]

Avoiding foreign entanglements, except in the times of most dire necessity, is the only way to protect our freedoms long-term.

To be devil's advocate, a lot of people -- including some that I greatly respect -- report that now is such a case.

I am not wholly convinced, but such [now being qualified] is a defendable position.

 

[xd9fan]

I find it very interesting that Congress talked tough in 2002 and still never give a "declaration of War" I dont think one troop should leave this country until Congress and the President(who ever that may be) offically declare war. WW2 was the last legit war we have fought........I want the bar raised to a higher standard before we enter these....conflicts. What have we gained by Vietnam and Korea???? please anybody seriously.........

A formal declaration of war raises the bar higher and if possible, makes war more legit....if possible.
Otherwise it makes it look like its just a president's "war"..."Bush's war". Going back to the Constitution will save us from ourselves......will save us from invading every damn place on this planet.


If this is a "world war" like some on this website believe and if this "war" is for the soul of Western Civilazation..........where is the declaration of war........????? Dont give me this terrorists are not a formal nation crap either....

The Bush doctrine is picking fights. At first I believed it was needed now I dont see the logic working. Its unconstitutional and reckless with our lives.

and another thing, We need the National Guard by law to never step foot in foreign soil.....(should be used to protect ourborders)......and this country need to get back to armed neutrality......... the world is a pale of crap....it will always be until THEY decide better..........meanwhile we will be that light on the hill......armed...but always a light on the hill.


*stepping off the soap box*

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yawn...

 

[xd9fan]

some times logic puts little boys to sleep
there there

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

some times logic puts little boys to sleep
there there

I've heard all of the 'logic' before, and it bored me then too. Yawn...

In the end, three facts matter to me.

One: Bush and I both believe that America is one of the best things to happen to mankind in all of recorded history. We agree that America is worth defending, vigorously and agressively.

Two: Bush and I both believe that planting free societies in the middle east is the best way to permanently eliminate the threat of terrorism. It's worth doing, and it's worth doing right. Even if it's sometimes difficult.

Three: All the people I know living and worling in Iraq tell me that we're succeeding. That's good enough for me.

That's the essence of it. Contorted reasoning doesn't change these simple facts.

 

[Ezekiel]

1. Nation "X" is the best and I'll defend it with impunity!
2. Imperialist ("X"-supported) colonies elsewhere best defend Nation "X"!
3. My subjects there say the Nation "X" plan is working!

Reminds me of the scene in Tombstone where Doc Holliday, after being on the pointed end of Johnny Ringo twirling sidearm show, removes his collapsible shotglass from his side and mimics the display...

"I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself."

Contorted reasoning doesn't change these simple facts.

"Simple facts" are meaningless without context. "Contorted reasoning" is far superior to what we have been getting...

 

[spartacus2002]

Regardless of whether Bush is correct or not in what he is doing, the uncontrovertible fact is that he is doing a p*ss-poor job of explaining it to the American people. Where are the WMDs? Where is Osama? Where are the carpets of flowers the Iraqis were supposed to throw on the ground for us? If we are "Mission Accomplished" like the banner on the aircraft carrier, why are servicemembers still dying?

In the absence of explanation, the only conclusion most folks will draw is that his buddies (i.e., Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.) want to rule the world and he's letting them. Don't like that one? How about incompetent?

And don't bother telling me that I'm a dirty liberal or that I've been brainwashed by the MSM. You would be wrong.

Contrary to the RNC's belief, the President is NOT the leader of America. He is the individual charged with being the CEO of the Executive Branch of the American govt. Americans get by just fine with him or without him.

 

[Ezekiel]

he is doing a p*ss-poor job of explaining it to the American people

Well, a thorough explanation of our "plan" would make the fallacies in it rather obvious, don't you think?

In general, I think Washington DC is filled with a lot of brilliant minds. In sum, folks who are completely capable of explaining our activities. The only reason things are cloudy is because they don't want anyone to know. Why not? Because Darth Cheney likes his silence...

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Time will tell. I think Iraq will prove to be a resounding success. As long as we don't give up on it too soon. The rest of the discussion bores me.



When "Nation X" refers the United States, it is absolutely right and proper to defend "Nation X" with impunity.

Replace "Nation X" with "Citizen X" and the same reasoning applies. When Citizen X is myself or a family member, it is absolutely right and proper to defend him/her with impunity.

Do you disagree?

And what's up with this "Imperialist" and "Colonizing" nonsense? Iraq is no more a colony of the US than Germany and Japan are. Or have I just swallowed too much of "Darth Cheney's" koolaid?

 

[Ezekiel]

When "Nation X" refers the United States, it is absolutely right and proper to defend "Nation X" with impunity.

What about any other sovereign nation? Or does "might make right"? (i.e., we weren't exactly worshipped by the Iraqi populace upon arrival.) Can other nations defend themselves with impunity against perceived threat?

When Citizen X is myself or a family member, it is absolutely right and proper to defend him/her with impunity.

By acting as unilateral neighborhood police? I'm sure the other "citizens" are thrilled. Besides, invading Iraq is akin to when SWAT in the states kicks in the wrong door. "The drugs [WMDs] aren't here!" ACK!

And what's up with this "Imperialist" and "Colonizing" nonsense? Iraq is no more a colony of the US than Germany and Japan are.

I note that you didn't say "were" referring to Germany and Japan. (In essence, you used a present-tense verb.) Cool. Of course you're completely discounting post-WWII occupation which is -- if you buy the current "Mission Accomplished" garbage -- exactly where we are in Iraq. As long as we hold up the infrastructure, it's a colony.

 

[wingnutx]

Regardless of whether Bush is correct or not in what he is doing, the uncontrovertible fact is that he is doing a p*ss-poor job of explaining it to the American people.

Yes, he is. I wish he would do better.

Where are the carpets of flowers the Iraqis were supposed to throw on the ground for us?

I got a soccer shirt and lots of baklava and hugs. Close enough. One thing I heard over and over from Iraqis was that they were scared we would leave.

If we are "Mission Accomplished" like the banner on the aircraft carrier, why are servicemembers still dying?

That was the ship's banner, and their mission was compelte and they were going home. This is a strawman from hell.

 

[Atticus]

Every good plan has a timeline. No timeline = no plan. It is important that we instill faith in the Iraqi people -ALL OF THEM. Currently, many of them truly believe that we are crusaders and that we will never leave. They are becoming the new wave of terrorists because of that. That is also why the 18 year old Arab suicide bombers are flocking to Iraq to kill and die. Saddam's in Prison along with his deck of cards - who the heck do you think we're fighting...and why?
A timeline MIGHT encourage some of the insurgents, but it WILL motivate the Iraqi police and military to take their destiny into their own hands. As it stands, we've simply replaced Saddam as a kindler, gentler authority figure. If we can't set a timeline for a MAJOR withdrawal in 3 years, then we might as well pack up and leave today.

 

[davec]

Apparently a lot of people are forgetting how the Iraqi government, military, and people attacked the United States on September 11, 2001.

 

[Ezekiel]

That was the ship's banner, and their mission was compelte and they were going home.

I didn't know, nor had I ever thought of, that.

"Good info." Thanks.

 

[Art Eatman]

Maybe there is something wrong with me, given my penchant for backing off a bit and looking at maps of the middle east and thinking of the chess games of international politics. Big Picture stuff.

We know that bin Laden was encouraged to go forward with the 9/11 deal because of our (in his eyes) cowardly retreat from Mogadishu. We're toothless tigers, afraid to lose any of our soldiers. So, I see a parallel in views of us on the part of any and all hostile elements in the middle east. If we leave Iraq, two things occur: We once again leave allies in the lurch, and we give cause to believe we have no will to follow whatever principles we've stated to have as policy.

This gives what I'll call "Jihadists" (to distinguish them from the other 90%+ of Islamics) tremendous power and influence of the various governments of the middle east. After all, they've proven they can make the cowardly Great Satan run away in disgrace. The Jihadists could even rise to power and total control of numerous countries that now range from allied to neutral to mildly hostile, creating a bloc of hostility.

As a generality, Jihadists are not particularly interested in doing business, in any western usage of the word.

Now go to a map and look at middle eastern and African countries, from Pakistan on west to Libya. Next, think "oil". The majority of the wolrd's oil is there. IMO, I would not be a bit surprised to see Jihadists, if in power, deny sales to anybody except those on their "friends" list. China, India, France...And then?

Folks who focus on cheap gasoline as the be-all and end-all of the World of Oil are just "plumb iggerant". Half of all oil is used in all manner of other stuff, including plastics. And ocean transportation isn't exactly a small thing.

In 1975, oil enroute to Japan meant an eight-mile interval between ships bound there from the Persian Gulf. For the heck of it I'll guess 8,000 miles; that's 1,000 tankers. Now, China is importing around the same amount of oil as Japan. So, we're north of 2,000, mas o menos. Then there are the freighters between world ports; how many thousands more is that? When the oil runs out, or when the supply is controlled, what then? Lotsa nukes? Back to coal? I bring this up because it's just one facet of world energy use. Just one! And there are so many more.

So Iraq is an excellent location for bases to support our projection of power into an area that is the heart, aorta and jugular of our economy--and the rest of the world as well. It's a cost reduction from our present system, and could enhance the safety of people now in our military. Having major naval forces inside the Persian Gulf is truly dangerous; near-foolhardy, really. Pulling forces out of Saudi Arabia could well ease some of the motivations of those who would join the Jihadists.

I'm not advocating; I'm not cherishing any of the above. Forget that notion. It's just the way I see the harsh reality of today's world. The point that people miss in "The Prince" is that nothing is advocated there as being moral. What's shown is that if one has a particular goal, there are necessities in the actions to achieve it. "If you want B, you must first do A." As near as I can tell, our national goal is survival with some degree of comfort and pleasure, Some amount of continuity in "life as we know it". That's sometimes expensive, whether you're measuring in dollars or lives. So far, we're doing it on the cheap.

Art