Ezekiel
Member
I remain quite unconvinced as to things having occurred in the specific manner you describe. :banghead:
Senate Republicans Pushing for a Plan on Ending the War in Iraq
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I remain quite unconvinced as to things having occurred in the specific manner you describe. :banghead:
xd9fan
Member
headless:
Bush and I both believe that planting free societies in the middle east is the best way to permanently eliminate the threat of terrorism. It's worth doing, and it's worth doing right.
PIPE DREAM This will never happen. not in my lifetime nor my boys'. "planting 'free' societies" ie nation building and the Bush doctrine will never "permanently eliminate the threat of terrorism. The threat will never go away. And this reasoning of protecting us from "threats" can be use on the American people to let their own Govt reduce their freedoms and liberties. Because we all want to be safe. Next I want you and Bush to tell me that you will creat a govt so big and intrusive that you have "permanently eliminated" risk/danger/threats from my life!!!
America is the best thing to happen to the human race since Jesus but the warfare GOP beter be careful, to not turn into the thing they are trying to "protect" us from.
I will not support any further nation building....this is not what the Founders wanted, It not was the Militery is design for, and it only creates futher hostile feeling towards the U.S. (we need armed neutrality) and increased free trade
Oh and good job building so called democracies:No Bill of Rights, No 2nd Amendment, no Declarication of Indpendance, and the Iraq Govt owns the oil industry and other companies......sounds like socialism-lite.
so which country in the world should we change next????? HMMMM
lets wait 15 years so my 3 boys can die for something I'm not very clear on. Because as a conservative, I'm not to clear on what we gained from Vietnam and Korea either.
Bush and I both believe that planting free societies in the middle east is the best way to permanently eliminate the threat of terrorism. It's worth doing, and it's worth doing right.
PIPE DREAM This will never happen. not in my lifetime nor my boys'. "planting 'free' societies" ie nation building and the Bush doctrine will never "permanently eliminate the threat of terrorism. The threat will never go away. And this reasoning of protecting us from "threats" can be use on the American people to let their own Govt reduce their freedoms and liberties. Because we all want to be safe. Next I want you and Bush to tell me that you will creat a govt so big and intrusive that you have "permanently eliminated" risk/danger/threats from my life!!!
America is the best thing to happen to the human race since Jesus but the warfare GOP beter be careful, to not turn into the thing they are trying to "protect" us from.
I will not support any further nation building....this is not what the Founders wanted, It not was the Militery is design for, and it only creates futher hostile feeling towards the U.S. (we need armed neutrality) and increased free trade
Oh and good job building so called democracies:No Bill of Rights, No 2nd Amendment, no Declarication of Indpendance, and the Iraq Govt owns the oil industry and other companies......sounds like socialism-lite.
so which country in the world should we change next????? HMMMM
lets wait 15 years so my 3 boys can die for something I'm not very clear on. Because as a conservative, I'm not to clear on what we gained from Vietnam and Korea either.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Free societies have worked every time they've been tried. From Hong Kong and Taiwan, to Japan and West Germany, to the US itself. Look at China today if you want to see an example of this power at work.
This stuff works, folks, every time and every place. There's no question about it.
To think that it won't work for the Arabs is either racist or stupid. Maybe both.
Big government, Iraqi constitution, state owned oil... Yawn.
This stuff works, folks, every time and every place. There's no question about it.
To think that it won't work for the Arabs is either racist or stupid. Maybe both.
Big government, Iraqi constitution, state owned oil... Yawn.
xd9fan
Member
none of my points have been answered...figures and yes free societies are the best....da
So now its up to the U.S. to create free nations on the whole planet??
which country should we change next???
get out your pocket book and get out your sons and daughters
So now its up to the U.S. to create free nations on the whole planet??
which country should we change next???
get out your pocket book and get out your sons and daughters
Ezekiel
Member
To believe that I am either is a significant penalty for refusing to consume the Shrub Kool-Aid.
Oh, wait, "I'm checking the source".
[Looking...looking...seeing who threw the barb...considering a response...re-thinking...evaluating the source...]
"Nope, don't care."
YAWN.
xd9fan
Member
lol
RealGun
Member
What the Senate isn't telling us is that about a third of them have to start campaigning for reelection after the holidays. It wouldn't be surprising to see some of them differentiating themselves from the administration if they are not from a State with a comfortable GOP faithful majority. I would want to look closely at exactly who is taking issue with the White House.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Eh...
You can debate the relative value free societies in the middle east. I happen to think that'd be a really good thing for those of us in the states. Poor, desperate, miserable people with no hope for a better future can often be convinced that martyrdom is a good idea. Prosperous, secure, hopeful folks generally can't.
That's the essence of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. The riots in Paris are a low-level display of the same phenomenon. It's why the Marshal Plan worked and the Versaille treaty didn't.
You may disagree. I'm not interested in debating that particular point.
But it does bother me when people say that Iraqis, (or Arabs, or whomever) are somehow not capable of living in a free society. The arguement is that they're somehow morally or genetically defective. That they can't handle the same responsibilites that the rest of the world can. The arguement is either racist or ignorant, and it offends me.
It's the same sort of racism that says blacks can't make it in society on their own, and therefore need Affirmative Action in order to succeed in life.
You can debate the relative value free societies in the middle east. I happen to think that'd be a really good thing for those of us in the states. Poor, desperate, miserable people with no hope for a better future can often be convinced that martyrdom is a good idea. Prosperous, secure, hopeful folks generally can't.
That's the essence of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. The riots in Paris are a low-level display of the same phenomenon. It's why the Marshal Plan worked and the Versaille treaty didn't.
You may disagree. I'm not interested in debating that particular point.
But it does bother me when people say that Iraqis, (or Arabs, or whomever) are somehow not capable of living in a free society. The arguement is that they're somehow morally or genetically defective. That they can't handle the same responsibilites that the rest of the world can. The arguement is either racist or ignorant, and it offends me.
It's the same sort of racism that says blacks can't make it in society on their own, and therefore need Affirmative Action in order to succeed in life.
Ezekiel
Member
Except, of course, in this (Iraqi) model wherein our invading army has acted as the equalizing legislation needed to "foster" their living in a free society. (Which, to date, has not occurred.) Basically, if you truly believe your theory, you should be in immediate support of a pull-out: since we were not required in the first place, as Iraq can/should "make it on its own" and doesn't need us to "succeed."
That's not my theory. Do you have a little bigotry you'd like to tell us about?
[sigh] That was low. You know what, "I apologize in advance," but I'm still posting it: as it is the same slander you're throwing about regarding anyone who disdains Kool-Aid and/or serves not the Emperor.
I, for one, am neither racist or ignorant. I'll presume others feel the same.
That being said, "my venom is done", and I look forward to continuing our debate.
xd9fan
Member
headless if you are referring to my posts you are way off base and missing the point of my posts by a country mile.
TOADMAN
Member
I am tired - when are we going to get there - I am hungry - I got to go to the bathroom...This terrorism war is going to take a great deal of time to win - many years. It ain't gonna be a fast food type of war!! I hate to say it - we must stay the course!!! Can't afford to get cavalier on this one!! We also must employ in Iraq/Afgan tougher military tactics - now!!! Our current military tactics are soft - not the military's fault - our troops are hamstrung by politics. Remember that war we had with Japan sixty some years ago? Some folks here may remember the military tactics used that ended that war. Look at Japan today - our buddies with a strong economy. How long did it take to get post war Japan on the straight and narrow - long time. Lets settle in and do it right!!!
coylh
Member
Art, I think there's an important idea to consider along with the 'paper tiger'.
We also run the risk of being the 'headless monster'. That is, if we appear to be a stop-at-nothing, completely unreasonable, fingers-in-ears nation, what incentive do others have in negotiating, compromising, or even talking? The only thing to do with monsters is kill them.
In general I think it's very productive in deciding a position, to try the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. What if the Arab countries, for example, decided they dare not become 'paper tigers' either?
We also run the risk of being the 'headless monster'. That is, if we appear to be a stop-at-nothing, completely unreasonable, fingers-in-ears nation, what incentive do others have in negotiating, compromising, or even talking? The only thing to do with monsters is kill them.
In general I think it's very productive in deciding a position, to try the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. What if the Arab countries, for example, decided they dare not become 'paper tigers' either?
As long as Iraqi's, and the rest of the world, knows that the US will continue to keep Iraq from imploding, and that we are willing to pay for it with the blood and finances of our children and grandchildren, they will will sit by and watch....forever.
Good for him. Iraq needs to be discussed and it's part of the job. Demanding pull out dates is tantamount to being a traitor because it will hurt the United States any way you look at it. It is definitely upsetting to see so many putting political brownie points ahead of our national interest. I guess it’s no surprise coming from the left.
Anyone who thinks that we are loosing the “war” have succumbed to the “combined arms media campaign” that our enemies have planned. Our troop morale is high and the terrorists continually resort to misleading their low level jihadist’s to make them believe they have a chance. The number of enemy terrorist casualties and dead is staggering. The only way to get more fighters is to lie. Improvised explosive devices do not win a war. They are resorting now to attacking the softest targets possible. This has had the effect of bringing the Iraqi people right into the arms of the United States. Good going terrorists.
CAnnoneer
Member
Headless Thompson Gunner said:
I agree with the these observations, but reject some people's ensuing conclusion that to be safe, we must fix the world. That is an impossible task that will only bankrupt and kill us. The world is even now so screwed up that it can only fix itself over time (as it has been doing for the past 3000 years). Many people that believe otherwise have never traveled outside this country, while others' experiences have been limited to guided tours of international resorts. Heh.
It is cultural. It takes a lot of time and effort and/or a horrendous crushing catastrophe to change a culture (it took a total unquestionable defeat for the Germans and two nukes for the Japanese just 60 years ago). This nation-building idea is one of globalists and idealists that want to promote their agendas at the expense of GI lives and our pockets.
And that is the real reason for our presence in Iraq; now and far into the future. All the hot air about 'democratization' is just so much huffing and appeasement for the far left 'blood for oil' crowd and it's annoying that the Bush crowd doesn't have the cojones to say so. The argument that a timetable will result in a jihadist victory is just another cover for the truth and an admission that instability in Iraq will always exist.
CAnnoneer
Member
R.H. Lee said:
Excellent. So, let's stop dancing around and just say so. The leftists shouting that fighting wars for oil is unconscienable should voluntarily stop using any and all oil products. Let's see how long they last. Good riddance and more gojuice left for the rest of us.
Cellar Dweller
Member
Win-win, lose-lose, or why it don't really matter
Stay the Course: IEDs and snipers and occasional flare-ups, some Americans and Iraqs and terrorists die.
Pull Out Now: jihadists go all-out combative on the fledgling democracy of Iraq until the U.S. sends force again to push the reset button. Followed by more Staying the Course.
What's supposed to happen when one of Iraq's neighbors decides to expand their territory...wait for a bit or immediately rush in to "defend democracy?" Troops have to stay there (like West Germany during the Cold War) regardless, which makes them targets (unlike West Germany). A stroke of the pen turns them from "occupiers/peacekeepers" to "deterrents" but there's no real difference.
Stay the Course: IEDs and snipers and occasional flare-ups, some Americans and Iraqs and terrorists die.
Pull Out Now: jihadists go all-out combative on the fledgling democracy of Iraq until the U.S. sends force again to push the reset button. Followed by more Staying the Course.
What's supposed to happen when one of Iraq's neighbors decides to expand their territory...wait for a bit or immediately rush in to "defend democracy?" Troops have to stay there (like West Germany during the Cold War) regardless, which makes them targets (unlike West Germany). A stroke of the pen turns them from "occupiers/peacekeepers" to "deterrents" but there's no real difference.
RealGun
Member
Besides, we need a staging area to attack Syria.
Ezekiel
Member
RealGun said:
"Ouch." True, but "ouch."
That smarted!
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
CAnnoneer said:
I agree that most of the world is pretty screwed up. I also agree that we can't possibly fix the whole world. But when it's in our interests, and in their interests, to clean up one particular corner of the world, then I have no compunctions about doing so.
I have seen much of the world. That's part of the reason why I value America so much. America truly is worth defending with all our might.
I know this may sound callous, but I'll say it anyway: In the grand scheme of things, 2000 dead soldiers is a VERY small price to pay for what we Americans currently enjoy.
It's not just 2000 dead soldiers. It's hundreds of billions of $$ poured into that craphole for what? There are plenty of other places in the world as needy of 'democratization as Iraq, so the 'democratization' argument is a red herring.
xd9fan
Member
opps
xd9fan
Member
which gets back to my discusion on why having Presidents and Congress declare war will cool off the hot heads and make SURE we know what and why we are doing this. Nothing was gained by vietnam and korea and look at all of those boys lost....for what???
mean time look at all of the time and energy lost by this war that could be used to finally fix social "sucurity", decrease the size of Govt (6.8 billion dlloars a day...thats 4.7 million EVERY SECOND)!!!
Senate GOP is starting to feel the heat and rightly so
mean time look at all of the time and energy lost by this war that could be used to finally fix social "sucurity", decrease the size of Govt (6.8 billion dlloars a day...thats 4.7 million EVERY SECOND)!!!
Senate GOP is starting to feel the heat and rightly so
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