senator wants cameras on cop guns

[RX-178]

Even the power to arrest someone and be immune from prosecution of unlawful detainment is a power that the rest of the citizenry lack. Even the execution of a warrant is something that police officers can do that the rest of the citizenry cannot (as police officers are the only ones that will be given the authority by a Judge). I understand these are part of the sworn duty of a police officer, and respect that. But it does not diminish the fact that they DO represent the exercise of powers above what ordinary citizens possess.

I do not think that the vast majority of cops are crooked. I do not doubt the sincerity with which Law Enforcement Officers serve the public. BUT THEY DO SERVE THE PUBLIC AND MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PUBLIC AND BY THE PUBLIC.

Uniform cameras also collect /evidence/, that will be helpful in any hearings, trials, or prosecution that result from any incident that an Officer is involved with. Evidence has no loyalty to the officer, or the suspect. It is merely the truth, and can be used in any context.

The cameras will ensure that all LEOs are accountable for their actions, but it does not paint them in an exclusively bad light. The video from a uniform camera can instantly exonerate an officer in a justified shooting that is called into question by witnesses, or attorneys. It also ensures that an officer's testimony cannot be called into question, as the video of the officer's involvement is on record.

If that involvement involves an abuse of power by a bad cop, then it makes it all the easier for that bad apple to be rid of.

 

[coloradokevin]

I predict the police are going to yell and scream and hop up and down and snivel and whine about gun cameras. I might be inclined to sympathize with them, but haven't forgotten how many uniformed cops have testified against concealed carry and shall issue laws.

If they'd wanted my support, they'd have earned it.

umm... that should probably read "how many department heads have come out against concealed carry". Remember, us street-level guys aren't often allowed to speak publicly on policy opinions.

I already responded to another thread on this subject, but I really don't like the idea. Without repeating the whole spiel, suffice it to say that I don't trust a camera's ability to accurately depict an incident when it is only filming from the time the gun leaves the holster (which may eliminate any opportunity to document most -- if not all -- of the footage explaining why the gun was drawn in the first place)

 

[RX-178]

And I do agree about the gun camera idea specifically.

Unwieldy, holster-unfriendly, takes up rail space and doesn't record anything useful.




Uniform cameras are the only way to go.

 

[FTA84]

Wow, how ripe with hypocracy this is.

So there have been a few bad police offers that have abused their power (a very serious offense, no doubt) and so you recommend that every officer, even officers without a single complaint, have a camera attached to them so you can monitor every move.

Funny, there have been many bad people who have abused the RKBA by killing their wives, spouses, strangers, drug dealers, ect. but everyone on this board says, "Don't take away guns preemptively, take them away after they've committed a crime!".

All the arguements for RKBA apply directly to this situation.

You want to know why we have more and more police abuses? Because people who want to be cops to do the right thing increasingly don't want to deal with the crap. The worse one makes this job, the more it will discourage good applicants from beating out the 'power hungry' ones.

I am not a cop and I have never commited a crime. I would be outraged if you asked to put a camera on me as if I were some sort of criminal that needed to be monitored 24/7. Maybe you should tap phones to make sure they aren't conspiring with each other to plant drugs!

What NEEDS to be done is increased penalities for abuses. The fact that officers have authority granted by the public trust, means that if that trust is violated, and in a serious manner, that they should never work again.

It was like that Chicago cop that beat a man in a wheelchair in a hospital while on duty. He got 2 years suspension from his job! That guy should never be allowed to work in law enforcement again. It seems like the only action police departments take against police officers is small financial penalities.

 

[Powderman]

OK. Where to start?

First,

carrying a weapon almost anywhere( which is a privlage)

Yes...a privilege that carries with it the obligation--both moral AND legal--to be able, willing and ready to use that firearm in service to protect your fellow citizens. The privilege that says that when someone starts shooting and everyone else is running AWAY, I'm running TOWARD the gunfire.

Next,

able to buy things the general public can't.

And pray tell, what might that be? Please don't use the old myth about buying full auto. Law enforcement officers are subject to EXACTLY the same restrictions as other citizens when it comes to Title II/NFA firearms--it has to be on the register, we pay the fee, get the stamp and everything else. Now, here's an eye opener for you...

While it IS true that we CAN buy newly full auto for duty use, here are the restrictions--read this carefully, because the last one is a kicker:

1. Purchased from the manufacturer on Department letterhead, and with approval of the Chief.
2. Paid out of YOUR pocket.
3. Maintained by the Department, and usually kept AT the Department.
4. The firearm is non-tranferable, and...
5. THE WEAPON REMAINS WITH THE DEPARTMENT. IF YOU LEAVE THE DEPARTMENT, THE WEAPON MUST STAY THERE, unless you are going to another Department where it can be transferred to the Department, and then back to you.

Note Well!

IF YOU GET OUT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WORK, AND DON'T GO TO ANOTHER DEPARTMENT, YOU LOSE THE FIREARM. PERIOD. WITH ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE OF REIMBURSEMENT.

Still think we can buy neat things for duty use?

As for this comment....

Even the power to arrest someone and be immune from prosecution of unlawful detainment is a power that the rest of the citizenry lack.

Excuse me?

What do you think happens when a cop detains someone without an articulable reasonable suspicion? It's called unlawful imprisonment, and it ESPECIALLY applies to police officers. So does unlawful search and/or seizure as well as the rest of the laws of the United States and the several jurisdictions. We are even MORE subject to the penalties under law for criminal activity or violations of civil rights. Why? Because we are held to a higher standard of care than non LEO are.

Here's a suggestion:

Find a citizen's academy at a department you are close to. Go through some training, and learn what our job is like. Learn what we actually have to do before you form any opinions.

 

[TAB]

The privilege that says that when someone starts shooting and everyone else is running AWAY, I'm running TOWARD the gunfire.

Not always, while On duty yes, but off duty is something entirely diffrent.

And pray tell, what might that be? Please don't use the old myth about buying full auto. Law enforcement officers are subject to EXACTLY the same restrictions as other citizens when it comes to Title II/NFA firearms--it has to be on the register, we pay the fee, get the stamp and everything else. Now, here's an eye opener for you...

I was not speaking about full auto... I was speaking more along the lines of other things that are prohibited by state/ local laws and things that companys will only sell to LEO( IE ammo) Just using gun relaited items as this is a forums about fire arms.

 

[Powderman]

Not always, while On duty yes, but off duty is something entirely diffrent.

TAB, you didn't read my post. Let me explain further.

Look up malfeasance and misfeasance. If I witness something--a criminal act--and fail to act at ANY time, I could be criminally charged. So could any other police officer.

Also,

I was not speaking about full auto... I was speaking more along the lines of other things that are prohibited by state/ local laws and things that companys will only sell to LEO( IE ammo) Just using gun relaited items as this is a forums about fire arms.

And what ammunition is THAT?

You can go online and by either my past duty round (230 grain HydraShok) my current duty round (230 grain, Ranger SXT) or my future duty round that our Department has selected (230 grain Gold Dot) in a matter of minutes. As a matter of fact, you can walk into a gun show and buy it by the case.

The only thing I carry on duty that you can not buy in its exact configuration is the X26 Taser. But you can buy one just as effective from Taser, that is in almost the same configuration.

So, what are these items of which you speak?

 

[Deavis]

On a tape or whatever it can be watched over and over again by a jury and if there is even a minor tell tale sign that it was a toy gun they will crucify that cop .

They will have hours or days to second guess a decision that needed to be made in a half of a second , Live or Die thats the cops decision perhaps in pain after a physical fight , or in the dark or both all in a split second .

Look, a trial isn't what is is made out to be on TV, everyone here knows that and is mature enough to accept it. The defense will point out the training the officer received, how he is supposed to act, and what the law says. Toy gun, toy knife, it doesn't matter now and it won't matter then if the evidence supports the officer. They have the law on their side, training, expert witnesses, and a system that, while not perfect, doesn't expect you to contemplate a plethora of possibilities when faced with a gun, real or not.

I'd put one on my gun. How sweet would that be to track how you move during training? Analyze where you can save time, what you thought you did transistion wise, what you actually did, etc...

 

[DMF]

"I believe that the police should be accountable for their actions."

Right. We already ARE--to a MUCH GREATER EXTENT than you can dream of.

Yes, but so many here refuse to look into the reality of that.

Officers could be subjected to Criminal, Civil, AND/OR Administrative penalties for their actions. If an officer is accused of wrong doing they might be prosecuted. Even if they aren't charged, the charges are dropped, or they are acquitted in court, they can still be sued in civil court. Even if they beat the civil suit they can still be subjected to administrative penalties, up to and including termination of employment. There have been plenty of cops who cleared in both criminal and civil court and still were fired. Add to all that, officers could be charged criminally both in state court and fed court for the same offense. Reference the "Rodney King" incident as one of the most famous examples. While occasionally civilians* can be charged in both state and fed court for the same offense, and while it's rare for both cops and civilians* alike, it's more common for cops to be the exception where both fed and state prosecutions are done for the same crime.



* cop haters don't get your panties in a wad, it's common usage of that term, for ease of distinction.

 

[DMF]

Even the power to arrest someone and be immune from prosecution of unlawful detainment is a power that the rest of the citizenry lack.

That is simply not true. Officers are NOT "immune from prosecution of unlawful detainment," or any other violation of rights. They are only immune from prosecution for lawful acts conducted within the scope of the their employment. If the act was in fact unlawful, they can most certainly be charged with the criminal offense, and may face additional federal charges for a violation of the victim's civil liberties.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Someone earlier amusingly (or perhaps idiotically) stated that the videos showing the bad guy attacking will be on the local news.

I'll assume you just don't watch TV. What part of the King video did we all see? Just the part with King getting beaten.

And that is ALL you'll EVER see on the news.

There could be 20 minutes of video showing a criminal shooting at a cop. The last five seconds when the cop points his gun and pulls the trigger is all that will make the news.

Anyone who thinks anything good will come of this is fooling himself. What it will do is drive even more people away from a job barely anyone wants to do to begin with and do you want to know what happens when enough cops leave a given area?

For your answer see New Orleans in the first week of September, 2005.

Bad-mouth us all you want, but there are literally millions of psychopaths out there that would turn your sweet little life into Hell if it wasn't for us.

I don't want your pity or your respect or your admiration.

I want you to leave me the hell alone so I can get back to risking my life to save yours.

 

[Art Eatman]

I don't like the idea if for no other reason than it violates the KISS principle. I just don't like doodads and gewgaws hung on a pistol...

Besides, you'll wind up with something as sporadic as the videos from helmet cams on racecar pitcrews. If you didn't already know what was going on, it wouldn't make sense. In a street fight, they're all different and you can't really know the antecedent conditions.

Art

 

[S&Wfan]

If ya really want to cut back on abuse and crime committed by our public servants . . .

PUT THE CAMERAS ON THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS!


T.

 

[RX-178]

MasterofMalice

I would not wish to live in a completely unpoliced society. But there are other instances where police withdrew from an area.

I believe it was Albuquerque, where police went on strike due to pay cuts from lower tax revenues.

Crime DROPPED, as people started purchasing firearms for defense.

The police eventually went back to work, pay cut and all.



If I am to leave you alone as you save my life, then I expect you to leave me alone when I save my own.

But that never happens.

 

[coloradokevin]

As some of my other fellow officers have stated, we really are held to a higher standard.

It is the one thing that makes these threads so laughable.

Consider:

1) If you go out drinking on a Friday night with your friends, and end up with police contact, can you be fired? I can.

2) If you get a speeding/photo radar/parking ticket, will it go in your permanent record at your job? It will for me.

3) If you have a crazy ex-girlfriend/boyfriend make unfounded accusations about your personal conduct outside of work, does your company start an official investigation against you? Mine will (fortunately not a situation I've ever been in the middle of, but a lot of guys have).

Heck, if I even carry my personal choice of guns off-duty when I am legally concealed carrying as a citizen, I can face suspension at work... My gun of choice (one that I've owned and carried for years) isn't on my department's approved caliber list, and thus if I use it off-duty (on MY time), I can be suspended at work!



Gee, sounds like I am just having the red carpet rolled out for me at work?

So, honestly, there is a LOT of accountability for us. And there is not a lot of "privelage" like some folks have alluded to.

Quite honestly, I agree with one of the above statements:

The more BS that gets added to this job, the less likely it is that your community will be able to get desirable officers. The cameras aren't a great idea, for a number of reasons that have already been stated (by myself, and others).

As is, my department is having a hell of a time recruiting quality applicants. My department even pays fairly well compared to others, but the job just doesn't have much appeal to many college grads these days. Simply put, they don't want to deal with the politics, the hours, the BS, the danger, etc. I love the job myself, but many other qualified applicants are bypassing it for other careers.

Add the more the BS factor goes up, the more you'll good folks for the job! Unless, that is, the taxpayer decides that they'd like to pay a lot more for their officers! I do believe that a substantial increase in pay would convince many qualified folks to pursue the career, even with the bueracracy... But, I don't hear anyone jumping up and down to open their wallets to the idea!

And, TAB, there is nothing that I can buy for work that you (as a law-abiding non-felon over the age of 21) can't go out and buy on your own.

My current duty load is a 200 grain .45GAP Speer Gold Dot HP, and my rifle carries a Federal 55gr HP bullet (it isn't select fire either). Our shotguns are loaded with either reduced recoil 00 buck, or reduced recoil slugs (I'd prefer full power stuff, but I don't get to choose, once again).

 

[sacp81170a]

Quote:
The privilege that says that when someone starts shooting and everyone else is running AWAY, I'm running TOWARD the gunfire.

Not always, while On duty yes, but off duty is something entirely diffrent.

Uh, incorrect, at least according to my department's SOP. If you have knowledge of a felony in progress, you're required to act, even if off duty. If you see a known fugitive off duty, you're required to act. The actions are left to your discretion, i.e., you don't have to rush in with guns blazing, but neither are you allowed to ignore the situation and go on about your business.

Also add in the "privilege" of coming in on your day off because you were subpoenaed for a case in which you were merely a witness to another agency's arrest and waiting around for half a day, only to find out that the trial has been postponed until next month, at which time you will have to show up in the morning after working a night shift. You will probably not testify then, either, but you have to be there "just in case."

As is, my department is having a hell of a time recruiting quality applicants. My department even pays fairly well compared to others, but the job just doesn't have much appeal to many college grads these days.

The standards are also higher than you'd expect for a "normal" job. You'll have to pass a written and oral exam, a PT test, a psych eval, a background check, a drug screen, and an oral interview before you even know if you have a chance at the job. It's easier to join the military. I know, because I've done both.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

My favorite complaint is the "rude" complaint.

You only get that complaint from people you've arrested or ticketed. Not to insinuate that they're perhaps being vindictive but my IA has a field day with that.

At least with my department a guilty officer is always the assumption.

But I look at it as a fair trade. You made an illegal lane change and almost killed three people in the lane next to you and got a $50 fine, in return you file a BS complaint and attempt to get me fired, put me out of a job, out of my house, standing there having to explain to my wife and two children why we now have to move because daddy got railroaded.

Yeah, I see what privilege you're talking about.

And you don't think cops get fired for idiot complaints? We do, and I know guys it's happened to. It tends to be the best officers, too, which is great because it breeds apathy and laziness.

 

[divemedic]

1) If you go out drinking on a Friday night with your friends, and end up with police contact, can you be fired? I can.

me, too. So can many other jobs. School teacher, bank workers, professionals, and many others. Part of wearing the big boy pants.

2) If you get a speeding/photo radar/parking ticket, will it go in your permanent record at your job? It will for me.

Again, me too. As it will in any job where you drive an employer's vehicle. But the difference is we don't get professional courtesy and a get out of tickets free badge.

3) If you have a crazy ex-girlfriend/boyfriend make unfounded accusations about your personal conduct outside of work, does your company start an official investigation against you? Mine will (fortunately not a situation I've ever been in the middle of, but a lot of guys have).

This happened to me at my job. Almost got fired. It sucks, but you aren't alone.

You only get that complaint from people you've arrested or ticketed. Not to insinuate that they're perhaps being vindictive but my IA has a field day with that.

Of course that is true. People who don't get tickets or arrested aren't as pissed off. No one will complain if you are handing out free pizza.


Also add in the "privilege" of coming in on your day off because you were subpoenaed for a case in which you were merely a witness to another agency's arrest and waiting around for half a day, only to find out that the trial has been postponed until next month, at which time you will have to show up in the morning after working a night shift. You will probably not testify then, either, but you have to be there "just in case."

Many jobs have on call status. Nurses, plumbers, Doctors, and many others. Be glad you get overtime, and aren't a salary employee.

I want you to leave me the hell alone so I can get back to risking my life to save yours.

I really appreciate what you guys do, but that "risking your life" card is overplayed by cops, fireman, and others. Fact is, out of hundreds of thousands of cops, only a hundred or so a year are killed. One could easily say that crab fisherman and farmers are risking their lives so you can eat, since they die in larger proportion

I think the animosity towards police comes that you see on this board and in the public in general is that they see police demanding privilege (for example, police carry), and then not demanding the same for the public, or when cops bust a person for something that they themselves (speeding, DUI) are doing or have done. As soon as a cop gets caught, the blue wall of silence closes ranks, and the cop walks. If you guys would police yourselves as well as you do the public, people would not be as vindictive towards you.

There was a cop here in Orlando that pushed a woman down the stairs, and then arrested her for PI and battery on a LEO. His partner said nothing. He would have gotten away with it had the video from the club she was in not been made public. Until fellow LEOs can police themselves in these cases, they will face more hostility from an ever increasing segment of the public.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I really appreciate what you guys do, but that "risking your life" card is overplayed by cops, fireman, and others.

Overplayed. It wouldn't be out of line to say I risk my life four or five times a week.

You're thinking strictly shootings but I'm thinking of everything else.

When your five year old stops breathing there isn't a cop within ten miles who isn't pushing his car past 100 to get there.

When some freak decides he's going to shoot up a mall, it isn't one or two "hero" cops who bust their ass to respond but all of us.

The firefighters put on 80 lbs of gear to go into a burning house. If I beat them there, I've gone in with my uniform as my protection.

I've crawled into wrecked cars, fought crackheads, and chased criminals in vehicle pursuits.

I've been spit on, I've been shot at, and I've been screamed at.

And I do it all for well under $40,000 a year (after five years on the job).

You clearly know absolutely nothing about what we do. Don't compare me to your suburban cops where the town population is 3000.

Fact is, out of hundreds of thousands of cops, only a hundred or so a year are killed.

179 cops killed last year

I'm really, really sorry that more of us don't get killed every year so we can justify our jobs to you, but unlike crab fishermen and farmers cops often get killed by malicious intent.

There is actually someone TRYING to kill us. There is a living, breathing, calculating being who wakes up in the morning and decides he will pit his skill and will against the rest of society.

We're not farmers, we don't slip into a combine, we're not fishermen, we don't get hung up in nets. We're cops, we get murdered by people who want to keep making you a victim.

 

[ar154life]

This is getting out of hand.........

 

[RandyC]

Just how bad this gun camera idea really is won't become apparent until a couple are put into service.

It has severe limitations on ever judging whether a shoot was justified or not. And what is the cop supposed to do? -- sweep everyone with the muzzle so the politicians can see what is going on?

At best, I see it a waste of tax dollars. And at worst, it'll make for an unwieldy firearm that could get some officer killed.

 

[sacp81170a]

Many jobs have on call status. Nurses, plumbers, Doctors, and many others. Be glad you get overtime, and aren't a salary employee.

Uh, no, actually I don't get paid. I've said many times on this board that I volunteer my time. When I have to show up for court during the day, I have to take vacation from my regular job.

 

[cluttonfred]

Can we please close this thread as it has turned in to discussion of police officers and not a discussion of cameras on guns?

 

[Pat-inCO]

In reading this thread I see several things, some of which disturb me, some of which are very funny because of the inability of said poster to distinguish between day and night and a few of the posts show a significant lack of understanding. Sorry if this upsets you but if it is a pointed black device made to dig in the dirt and often has a somewhat sharp edge, it COULD be a spade.

First: Are there bad cops out there? A few, but the vast majority are good people that have accepted one of the really lousy jobs in the US.

Second: Are some of these cops short tempered? Once again, some, but most are easy to get along with, IF you treat them as you would like to be treated were the situations reversed. - - On the subject of short tempered; Look in the mirror. Are you p.... (annoyed) because you got stopped? Are you REALLY in a hurry to get to XYZ because YOU screwed up and didn't leave on time? Did you know that "your" officer just completed his third stop, each with a severely retarded punk that managed to - just - stay legal enough that the officer let him go rather than go through the "stuff" at the station for a less than 200% guilty stop?[yes, I said two hundred] - - - Don't forget, these police deserve the "right" to go home safely at the end of shift. Are you doing your part to let them know YOU are not going to attempt to keep them from going home safely?

No-knock raids, bad shoots: What have YOU done lately to keep police informed of problems in your area? Do you have a good working relationship with the beat cop for your area? - - I had a drug dealer on my block for about three weeks. At the end of that time the PD had come around multiple times to "look into" the situation and I had spoken with them all but one time (when I was not home as it happened). Funniest thing, the drug dealer moved before the PD could catch him with his stash. Problem solved simply by COMMUNICATING with the police. GEE WHAT A CONCEPT! - - - - Bad shoots are (about 99%) caused BY THE "OFFENDER" BEING NON-COOPERATIVE! In more simple terms, be polite and TALK with the officer, follow instructions, and there is a minuscule chance of a bad shoot.

Final item: BE SOBER when you deal with the police and your "problems" with the PD/SO/STATE PATROL will be minimized. Even one beer alters your perception of what is happening.

Last item: Gun Camera; STUPID IDEA, follow the money. Which politician is going to benefit financially from doing this? THERE is your problem.

 

[roo_ster]

I recall a spoof of the Army's Land Warrior system:
"This camera, here, is there so that if I shoot the wrong guy, they can fry my ass..."

================

Dash cameras & cameras on a LEO's person are a good thing and will likely help good cops falsely accused of wrongdoing prove their case.

Cameras mounted on a cop's firearm is a bad idea, due to tech limitations and practical limitations. I, as a citizen, would not want a light to come on every time I draw my weapon. I also don't want to add dead weight to my weapon.

The tech limitations are manifold, but boil down to the fact that any camera that can be mounted on a weapon is likely to have poorer performance than one mounted to the LEO.

===========

I predict the police are going to yell and scream and hop up and down and snivel and whine about gun cameras. I might be inclined to sympathize with them, but haven't forgotten how many uniformed cops have testified against concealed carry and shall issue laws.

If they'd wanted my support, they'd have earned it.

Ouch, that hits close to the mark.

Yes, in many cases it is cop management that is the problem...but not all. As in many things, they will reap what they have sown.

=================

...While occasionally civilians* can be charged in both state and fed court for the same offense, and while it's rare for both cops and civilians* alike, it's more common for cops to be the exception where both fed and state prosecutions are done for the same crime.



* cop haters don't get your panties in a wad, it's common usage of that term, for ease of distinction.

Having been both a civilian and a non-civilian, I think such bad habits ought to be pointed out and expunged.

If you think that folks who are sensitive to such misuse and misunderstanding are cop-haters, you unnecessarily alienate many allies.


===========

1) If you go out drinking on a Friday night with your friends, and end up with police contact, can you be fired? I can.

Yes. Both in my current, civilian occupation and in my former, non-civilian occupation.

2) If you get a speeding/photo radar/parking ticket, will it go in your permanent record at your job? It will for me.

In my former non-civ ob, yes. Currently, it would depend on the entirety of the infraction. If it is just a petty ticket, no big deal.

3) If you have a crazy ex-girlfriend/boyfriend make unfounded accusations about your personal conduct outside of work, does your company start an official investigation against you? Mine will (fortunately not a situation I've ever been in the middle of, but a lot of guys have).

Not just my company, but Uncle Sam may very well jump into the mix. If I can't prove my innocence to their satisfaction, I am out of a job and barred from an industry.

Heck, if I even carry my personal choice of guns off-duty when I am legally concealed carrying as a citizen, I can face suspension at work... My gun of choice (one that I've owned and carried for years) isn't on my department's approved caliber list, and thus if I use it off-duty (on MY time), I can be suspended at work!

When I was a non-civ, off-duty carry / CCW was legal, but barred to me.