Senior design project

[Bovice]

The instructors shot down one of your designs because it was too simple?

I am not the least bit surprised. When I was going through exactly what you are now, we were working on a project that was offered. They told us what we had to accomplish, but not how.

We used the K.I.S.S. approach and that got the professors all riled up. The sad thing is that we have engineers out in the workforce who overlook the obvious because "it can't be something simple". That kind of "showing off" is just what the professors love. They are paid to do research and look impressive. But they are missing a lot of practicality. Shooting down a solution because it's too easy is foolishness. That's not what the real world is about at all.

I am thinking of a stock design that is QD-mounted to the receiver, with a strap system attached to a belt, in orientations to support the weight of the gun and counteract muzzle rise. The stock is "worn" and once it is donned, the user can attach the receiver. It would hold the gun in a constant ready position with an option to quick adjust the harness to lower it muzzle down.

If you would like, I can draw a picture.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Project

Have you considered a stock with a hook type devise that would go over the shoulder and down the back? I am not sure if I am explaining it correctly.

The stock would still have the standard type pad but the device would hook over the top of the shoulder and down the back shoulder blade to support the weapon. The Stock would have a pistol grip so it is easier to control and lift up and palce over the shoulder. The Hook or brace (in lack of a better terms) would also be padded where in sits on top of the shoulder and down the back shoulder blade.

The weight would be distributed over the shoulder and supported by the pistol grip and to some extent the Hook or brace devise.

Maybe you can take the above and tweak it.

 

[Bovice]

Have you considered a stock with a hook type devise that would go over the shoulder and down the back? I am not sure if I am explaining it correctly.

The stock would still have the standard type pad but the device would hook over the top of the shoulder and down the back shoulder blade to support the weapon. The Stock would have a pistol grip so it is easier to control and lift up and palce over the shoulder. The Hook or brace (in lack of a better terms) would also be padded where in sits on top of the shoulder and down the back shoulder blade.

The weight would be distributed over the shoulder and supported by the pistol grip and to some extent the Hook or brace devise.

Maybe you can take the above and tweak it.

This is exactly what I was trying to hint at. A strap over the shoulder and down the back will support weight of the gun.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

Sounds like we are on the same page. The Hook/brace would simply sit over the shoulder and the shooter can lift the weapon up and away from him for reloading. This means not strap or buckles to deal with.

 

[brodbeckrt]

303 Tom- look at the SPAS-12 Hook
It is similar to that concept. http://gunrunnerhell.tumblr.com/post/32618521229

JAshley-
I like the ideas. Due to time our goal isjust an aftermarket kit to fit an existing gun(with minimal modifications, if any) rather than building an entire new weapon. The ambidextrous ideas I do like a lot. If I had the time/money/licensing to build a custom weapon the possibilities are endless. Thanks a lot for the great ideas.

Smitty in CT- Thanks I will try to get in contact with him.

All thanks for taking the survey. That was more to meet project procedure requirements to put a quantity to a customers opinion. We could have made one that would have taken you a half hour to finish but I feel we wouldn't have gotten as many people to take it. Also posts on here and the other 9 forums are taken into consideration. We would be more than happy to hear anyone elaborate(if they feel the need to) on anything.

 

[brodbeckrt]

I didnt check page 2...

Bovice- I know what you mean... now that we have begun meeting with our assigned adviser, he sees the complexity on the project regardless of the type of action the gun is. That portion of our project is set in stone now so we are just going to have to go with it. KISS is the way I try to live my life. Pictures are welcome.

AI&P and Bovice- We all seem on the same page with using some type of way to fix the rear of the gun to the shooter to allow for more control and help a little with the weight.
Some great ideas.

I'll start giving some of our details:
We discussed some type of brace the shooter could wear and the gun could easily attach and detach from it. The brace would have some mechanism(ball joint, u-joint) that once the gun was attached it would still allow full range of motion. This would also come in to play while reloading. The shooter reload while the gun "hanging" from the shoulder(muzzle down), cycle the action, and move the gun back up into a shooting position.

 

[Inebriated]

I know you've got your idea going.

But I'm just thinking out loud here.

A Saiga would be pretty good if you worked out a real bolt hold-open and bolt-release system that would allow one-handed manipulation. You could do a sling system that would both support the front of the already-short gun, and allow it to hang somewhat tightly to the body for reloading. I would think a vest with one strap coming over the left shoulder to the front of the gun, and another coming over the right to the buttstock. The Left one would support the front, the right one would allow it to hang in a usable position for reloading or manipulation. Since the bolt would be back, all the user would have to do is rock in a new magazine, and use the bolt release once back on the shoulder. Also, the AK mag catch is also great for one-handed manipulation.

 

[brodbeckrt]

Iniebriated- I do like your ideas about the Saiga. Thank you for those. We have our ideas going but nothing is set in stone other than using a pump gun and an auto-loader. Being on a budget I came across a trade I couldn't pass up on a 11-87, and we also got a Mossberg 500. Those are what we are going with. I guess that is now set in stone as well. We are open to suggestions/feedback about anything...

 

[M-Cameron]

i just graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, so if you need any help, feel free to ask.

i know if i were to attempt this, i would do something like this:



essentially have a shortened buttstocks, and have the trigger actuated by a solenoid with a trigger switch on the VFG.

that should give you a nice compact package that is easily manageable with one arm.

 

[Steve2md]

my suggestion would be a bull pup design, add a little extra weight to the rear of the butt stock to reduce recoil and improve balance further. a single point combat sling will easily facilitate reloads, and can be adjusted so the butt of the gun stays near the shoulder pocket, allowing the use of leverage to move the gun back into firing position. an 18.5 " barrel will reduce the front end weight further, although going up to 20 would be more versatile. go with 20 ga to reduce recoil further. Just my 2 cents

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I have one (a 10-A), and while it's perfectly shootable with one hand, it seems to me it would be hard to fully manipulate safely in a sporting environment with one hand. They're just so SHORT...

If it's a trap gun than it would probably have a longer barrel making it more safe to use.

The biggest problem with a bullpup (especially as a defensive shotgun) is loading it - a student in the defensive shotgun class I took yesterday had a KSG, and he was having difficulties running that gun with both hands/arms working just fine.

Was it a training gap or was it seriously the gun itself being difficult.

 

[brodbeckrt]

M-cameron: I like the idea of the solenoid. we were thinking strictly a mechanical link, but the solenoid my make our lives a lot easier.
Steve2md: we are going with as long of barrels as we can to keep it comfortable. we are moving the grip forward to help re-balance the gun instead of adding weight.
527: You do bring a solid question on the reload problems, as of now we have no plan to modify the reloading procedure. especially if the gun will have some type of strap or brace holding the gun during reload.

Originally we wanted not to modify any part of the existing gun but it looks like I am going to have to shorten the action spring tube on the 11-87
I essentially want to shorten the action spring tube to its bare minimum plus a little "just in case" room. I want to keep the same the length of deformation and same force but shorten the spring. I do not simply want to cut the spring because that doesnt seem feasible.
I do have some questions on this: I am going to have to replace it or build a mechanism to transfer the energy to one or two springs incorporated into the new stock in some fashion. I have some thoughts in my head on ways to do this. Ill have to post up some sketches when I get the specs on the current spring so I can at least have some realistic solutions.
Can I change the angle of the action spring? If so any ideas how much before it jacks everything up?
does anyone know where I could find the actual engineering specs on the existing spring?
Also some of the other specs like the exact length of travel of the bolt(aka the change in length of the spring)?
I am going to find the experimental engineering specs for the current spring later this evening. I just didn't know if it was published in any manuals anywhere?

Any feedback is welcome.

Thanks

 

[M-Cameron]

does anyone know where I could find the actual engineering specs on the existing spring?
Also some of the other specs like the exact length of travel of the bolt(aka the change in length of the spring)?
I am going to find the experimental engineering specs for the current spring later this evening. I just didn't know if it was published in any manuals anywhere?

im willing to bet that if you called up remington and told them what you were doing that they would be able to answer those pretty easily.


as for altering the action spring.....eh, chances are you are not going to be able to alter that and have it run reliably with out considerable re-engineering of the entire action.

 

[brodbeckrt]

im willing to bet that if you called up remington and told them what you were doing that they would be able to answer those pretty easily.


as for altering the action spring.....eh, chances are you are not going to be able to alter that and have it run reliably with out considerable re-engineering of the entire action.

want to keep the same the length of deformation and same force but shorten the spring

Ideally we wouldnt be changing anything since the forces and displacements would be the same. The only thing that would be different would be the spring constant.
Hooke's law for springs:

F(stays the same)=-k(changes in this case) * x(stays the same)

x is the displacement of the spring's end from its equilibrium position
F is the restoring force exerted by the spring on that end
k is a constant called the rate or spring constant

 

[brodbeckrt]

Update... Remington will not give me any info because it is protected.

We are looking more into a redesign of the recoil spring system to make it more compact in the sense that the buttstock will be as short as possible.

 

[brodbeckrt]

Its been a while since I posted. We are currently in the process of building this. here is a render from one of our models:

 

[HB]

Looks like a good solution to me. Winchester used to offer a "thumb trigger" .22 rifle. I've always heard it was for WWI vets who lost their fingers during the war so you aren't the first to delve into bringing wounded warriors back into the sport.

HB

 

[Biohazard1993]

anything new about the project brodbeckrt?