jehicks87
Member
What is/are the actual differences between the two? I noticed the Saiga doesn't have the dimples in the reciever above the magwell. Why is that? Any internal differences?
Seriosly, whats the difference? AK vs Saiga (converted)
- Thread starter jehicks87
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The Saiga is made in Russia by Izhmech, the same factory that has been producing real military AK's since the beginning. If you get one that has been properly converted they are about the best of the AK's out there. Not that there is anything wrong with owning one of the other clones, but the Saiga is the closest most of us will ever get to owning a "real" AK.
Rail Driver
Member
In my opinion, the Saiga is a higher quality AK than any WASR I've seen.
jehicks87
Member
I know the Saigas are made on the same lines. I was wondering what the operational differences are between Saigas and regular Ak's. Like, parts interchangability, reciever design (milled or stamped), things like that.
I appreciate the information given so far, but I'm looking for a bit more in-depth information.
I appreciate the information given so far, but I'm looking for a bit more in-depth information.
Zerodefect
member
1.) What exactly is the difference?
2.) Why is converting it, whatever that means, superior to a stock Saiga?
3.) How is it done? Do I get to use my majik Dremel tool?
4.) Is it better than a pricey Arsenal Ak?
5.) What about the 12 gauge?
Thanks.
2.) Why is converting it, whatever that means, superior to a stock Saiga?
3.) How is it done? Do I get to use my majik Dremel tool?
4.) Is it better than a pricey Arsenal Ak?
5.) What about the 12 gauge?
Thanks.
jehicks87
Member
The Arsenal is a converted Saiga.
Zerodefect said:
1.) The differences are, the forearm is one piece instead of two. There is a trigger linkage that allows a more rearward positioned trigger to activate the standard location trigger hook that holds the hammer. There is no Pistol Grip. The stock is monte-carlo instead of short and compact.
Then there are caliber differences. Saigas come in .308, .30-06, .223, 5.45x39 AND 7.62x39 rifles... As well as .410, 20ga and 12ga shotguns. (In the USA)
2) The conversion is simply removing the trigger linkage, and installing a standard AK trigger and instaling a pistol-grip and changing the stock out. (This is a basic conversion). You are restoring the gun using USA made parts to it's normal, military-style configuration.
3) DREMEL ALL THE PARTS!!!!!
4) A pricey Arsenal AK is a Saiga that they've "Converted" and bolted some parts onto. They are equal, and possibly, doing your own conversion is superior. I've converted several rifles and shotguns, and I can tune my own trigger pull.... The Arsenal boys won't do that for you.
5) The 12 gauge is AWESOME. Uses the same trigger/hammer as the rifles and rear-stock is the same. Has some modified quirks that the rifles don't. But they are basically the same.
You're Welcome.
jehicks87
Member
so any and all AK-47 parts will interchange with a converted Saiga?
Rail Driver
Member
I've converted a Saiga in 7.62x39 (and I'm actually about to do another one in a week or two) and with the right modifications to the rifle itself(gas tube, handguard bracket, front sight tower, thread barrel, FCG conversion (with trimmed hammer if you want to use the BHO function), you can use any part that will fit a stamped AK as far as I've been able to tell.
jehicks87
Member
bolts? bolt carriers? All stocks? Handguards? Etc etc?
Grim Peeper
Member
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What? my Saiga has dimples?
The Saiga is just a sportorized AK. People then try to convert it back into an AK type. That means replacing the sporter stock with a pistol grip and military stock. It also means (at least for the 7.62 version) converting it to use AK mags. Essentially ALL AK parts will fit a Saiga when converted. Saigas are stamped as are most AKs.
One thing not mentioned is that to convert the Saiga 7.62x39 to take AK mags you have to add a feed ramp and tweak the mag release both of which is cheap and easy to do.
Some of us happen to like the Saiga as is. I converted my 12 ga, but have kept my 16" 7.62x39 stock (except for a provision to add the feed ramp so I can use AK mags if I need to). I have also kept my 16" 308 stock as well.
One thing not mentioned is that to convert the Saiga 7.62x39 to take AK mags you have to add a feed ramp and tweak the mag release both of which is cheap and easy to do.
Some of us happen to like the Saiga as is. I converted my 12 ga, but have kept my 16" 7.62x39 stock (except for a provision to add the feed ramp so I can use AK mags if I need to). I have also kept my 16" 308 stock as well.
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Some of the Saigas have dimples, some do not. There are also some with stepped chambers (some type of Russian plot to mark casings).
I lucked out, dimpled receiver, no chamber step and the barrel is notched for traditional handguards. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that the barrel is threaded as well, but I have no plans to cut off the shroud at the moment...
Arsenal also welds all the un-used holes in the receiver, something most garage warriors will not do. Also, I don't think it's fair to say that pressing off/on the FSB and gas block is just "bolting on some parts"...
kwelz
Member
So true. You are supposed to use a Hydraulic Press. Not something I have in my garage.
jehicks87
Member
What do you mean by tweak the mag release? Will the saiga not take a standard AK mag release?
See, these are the kinds of things I've been wondering. After hearing you have to alter this, add that... I really don't see how anyone can claim it's the "closest thing to a Russian AK." I mean, it looks like an AK, and operates like an AK, but requires modifications to accept AK parts? As far as I know, Romanian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Egyptian, etc. AK's do not require modifications. So, they are actually closer to "Russian AK's" than the Saigas (aside from the fact that they aren't built in the same factory), aren't they?
Rail Driver
Member
The main difference has everything to do with the status of international arms treaties in effect between the relevant countries and the U.S.
Because of those treaties and agreements, Russian AK's can only be imported in a "sporterized" form. (as far as I know, though I could be completely off base too
either way it's worth exactly what you paid for the answer)
Also, you don't really have to replace the FSB, all you have to do is cut off the shroud attached to it and expose the threads (at least mine was threaded and also had the dimpled receiver and no stepped chamber). Replacing the FSB is a more thorough and, in my opinion, cleaner way to do the job if you've got the necessary tools.
Because of those treaties and agreements, Russian AK's can only be imported in a "sporterized" form. (as far as I know, though I could be completely off base too
either way it's worth exactly what you paid for the answer)Also, you don't really have to replace the FSB, all you have to do is cut off the shroud attached to it and expose the threads (at least mine was threaded and also had the dimpled receiver and no stepped chamber). Replacing the FSB is a more thorough and, in my opinion, cleaner way to do the job if you've got the necessary tools.
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mortablunt
Member
The Saiga rifle is a less scary AK for getting into areas full of knee jerk. IT's a pretty darn good gun too. I have one question: Is it legal to order one off the internet from Izmash?
Couple things to throw in: The Saiga is a sporterized version of the AK-100 series rifles, whereas your WASR, etc. is a copy of the AK-M design. The Ak-100 series is a project-improvement version of the AK-74 adapted to a myriad of different calibers. The differences are not major, but they are there, such as the 90 degree gas block, and a AK-74-esque bolt carrier.
As for Arsenal SGL-21's being converted Saiga's: Yes and No. When the rifle is imported into the US it i does have a sporter stock on it, and can only take 10 round magazines. However, as it is imported it would be very hard if not impossible to actually shoot. Its imported as a sort of 95% complete complete rifle. Arsenal does not weld over any holes or cuts, they simply swap parts, put make it 922(r) complaint, and push it out the door. Seeing as I have a SGL-21 sitting no more then 10 feet away from me I can tell it has a lot of AK-100 series features and no markings that would indicate that at any one point it was a Saiga rifle that was then converted. It lacks such things as: Cutout for the bolt-hold open latch, or rear stock rivet holes.
While it is in the realm of the conceivable that arsenal ultra-carefully welded up the notch for the bolt-hold open and the rivet holes and then ground, and polished it to make it look like it was never there, I suspect more likely it was never there to begin with. Thus, there's a lot of evidence that Izmash takes a standard semi-auto AK-100 series rifle, pulls off the FSB, bullet guide and pistol grip, and throws it in a box to send to arsenal to finish. Thus, it is imported as a low-capacity, non-pistol gripped, non threaded barrel hunting rifle. After all import laws do not say anything about fit or finish, or if it looks like a complete firearm. Arsenal then takes them, puts on a a FSB, and flash-hider, screws on a pistol grip, rivets in a bullet guide, and Vola! Done.
Additionally the mounting of the magazine catch and trigger guard is very suggestive that that was how it was made, based on the very even finish all over the firearm. Other small details: only phosphate finish under the upper and lower hand-guard retaining "plates" indicating that they were mounted prior to painting. Something that no sporter Saiga would have. So is a SGL-21 a converted Saiga? Yes and No. It is converted, and it is a saiga, it just never was a sporterized saiga that you can buy in a store.
As for Arsenal SGL-21's being converted Saiga's: Yes and No. When the rifle is imported into the US it i does have a sporter stock on it, and can only take 10 round magazines. However, as it is imported it would be very hard if not impossible to actually shoot. Its imported as a sort of 95% complete complete rifle. Arsenal does not weld over any holes or cuts, they simply swap parts, put make it 922(r) complaint, and push it out the door. Seeing as I have a SGL-21 sitting no more then 10 feet away from me I can tell it has a lot of AK-100 series features and no markings that would indicate that at any one point it was a Saiga rifle that was then converted. It lacks such things as: Cutout for the bolt-hold open latch, or rear stock rivet holes.
While it is in the realm of the conceivable that arsenal ultra-carefully welded up the notch for the bolt-hold open and the rivet holes and then ground, and polished it to make it look like it was never there, I suspect more likely it was never there to begin with. Thus, there's a lot of evidence that Izmash takes a standard semi-auto AK-100 series rifle, pulls off the FSB, bullet guide and pistol grip, and throws it in a box to send to arsenal to finish. Thus, it is imported as a low-capacity, non-pistol gripped, non threaded barrel hunting rifle. After all import laws do not say anything about fit or finish, or if it looks like a complete firearm. Arsenal then takes them, puts on a a FSB, and flash-hider, screws on a pistol grip, rivets in a bullet guide, and Vola! Done.
Additionally the mounting of the magazine catch and trigger guard is very suggestive that that was how it was made, based on the very even finish all over the firearm. Other small details: only phosphate finish under the upper and lower hand-guard retaining "plates" indicating that they were mounted prior to painting. Something that no sporter Saiga would have. So is a SGL-21 a converted Saiga? Yes and No. It is converted, and it is a saiga, it just never was a sporterized saiga that you can buy in a store.
ChileRelleno
Member
Dimples? Some do, some don't.jehicks87 said:
Why? The answer given to that is usually, the Izmash factory produces rifles/shotties for both export and their military. The dimpled receivers are presumably Milspec.
There are multiple possible variations in Saiga rifle barrels:
1) Some have a Russian Gun Control feature, civilian/export barrels have a stepped chamber which marks fired brass, Milspec do not have stepped chamber.
2) Milspec has barrel notches for handguard retainers.
3 ) Milspec have threaded barrels. (7.62x39 only)
But... You can have every Milspec attribute and still not have a threaded barrel.
You have to chop the barrel sleeve off the FSB to find out if you won the lottery.
Some Saiga rifles have round or flat front trunnions, again, seems to be luck of the draw.
Milspec receivers tend to have the pistol grip mounting hole pre-cut, export do not.
Saigas are built on stamped receivers.
Yes, there are internal parts differences.
No, any and all AK47 parts will NOT work in the Saiga rifles.
Not all parts are interchangeable with other stamped receiver AK variants.
Pretty much proprietary for the Russian rifles, based on the new AK74 100 series (IIRC).
Russian Made Bolt Carrier assembly, with gas piston, AK-74 style Bolt Carrier. Will work on all Russian 7.62x39, 5.45x39.5, and 5.56x45 caliber rifles. Fits all ak-74 variant rifles with the exception of Romanian Variants.
Russian Made Bolt assembly, current production, for Saiga type rifles. Russian bolt assembly for current production Russian rifles, including all Saiga 7.62 and Arsenal's SGL20 and SGL21 series rifles. Will not work on variants with countries of origin other than Russia.
Russian Recoil spring assembly for 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and 5.45x39.5 caliber rifles.
Some things work, like most folks use Bulgy AK74 FSB with 24mm threads, to replace factory FSB, and use the 24mm muzzle attachments.
Same with Bulgy AK74 gas blocks.
'IZMASH'rule303 said:
Izhmash JSC
Izhevsk Ordnance Plant
The largest firearms producer in Russia, OJSC "IZHMASH" is located in Izhevsk, the capital of the Udmurt Republic. It was founded by the order of the Russian Tsar Alexander I in 1807. The enterprise has been known by many names and played many roles, starting with the Imperial Ordnance Plant which supplied arms during the war against Napoleon, the Izhevsk Ordnance and Steel Plant which used to combine these related industries, Plant #74 which delivered hundreds of trainloads of weapons to the frontline troops during WWII, and the Izhmash Production Association which greatly contributed to restoration of the national economy after the war.
The first batch of AK-47s was produced at the Izhevsk Motor Plant. Later all technical documentation was transferred to the Mechanical Engineering Plant which had started producing weapons already at the beginning of the 19th century. At that time it was called the Izhevsk Ordnance Plant. The Izhevsk Ordnance Plant has by now evolved into the Izhmash JSC.
OJSC "IZHMASH" shows exclusive possibilities in the sphere of new projects and researches on various types of firearms (sniper rifle, automatic weapon, submachine gun), as well as in their effective production and quality control. Special quality control groups carefully check that the products meet the highest demands of documentation.
The history of the "IZHMASH" Open Joint Stock Company dates back to XVIII century, when Russia made a great step in the industrial development. In 1760 the constructing of new Iron-Works on the river Izh was begun. For the next four years the first industrial buildings and the dam were built. The dam was a very large water-development project for that time. Thousands of anchors for merchant and military ships, were made at Izhevsk Iron-Works, thousands tons of bar and flat iron were also produced there, and the orders for the Admiralty, Arkhangelsk and Astrakhan ports were completed. In 1807 Tsar Alexander I gave an order to the mining engineer Deryabin to found the Arms Factory in Ural. Having studied the possibilities of the region, Deryabin made his choice of the Izhevsk Iron-Works. The establishment of an Arms office on June of the same year was the starting point of the new Factory, which gave a major incentive for development of a grand "Izh-town" by Deryabin's will. Deryabin is considered to be a founder of a town by right.
It is hard to overestimate the significance of the plant in Russian history. Almost all types of firearms were produced here. The following fact witnesses the unique nature of the plant: as many as 11.3 million rifles and carbines were made for the period of the Second World War, which is more than all German firearm plants taken together (10,3 million). Besides, the enterprise mastered the mass production of antitank weapons, aircraft automatic guns, pistols and revolvers. Every day and night IZHMASH used to arm 1 infantry and 1airbourne divisions. The postwar period of almost two century history of the plant is connected with production of the Kalashnikov assault rifle AK-47, which is still adopted in armed and special forces of 106 countries all over the world. In 1966 the car production was built up at "Izhmash", and a new family of such cars, as "Izh-408", "Izh-412", "Izh-2125" - a hatch back-type car, "Izh-2715" - a van-type car have appeared on the automobile market.
G'gosh.... My MTS is acting up... I might finish this up later.Zerodefect said:
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