Serious revolver usage

[18DAI]

I am an old revolver guy and am indeed biased in my choice of defensive handgun. Lately I have read threads on several boards with the "revolver vs semi auto pistol" theme. Must be something in the water recently. Several times in these threads I have read nonsense about "agencies/units/individuals who use handguns for serious purpose do not use revolvers..."

So I looked into that baseless claim and found some interesting information. I thought that perhaps it may be of interest to some here as well, so I will share it. Please take it for what it is worth. Also, should you be one of those who carries/espouses/believes that Glock is perfection and the Alpha and Omega of handguns, please hit your back button now and spare us. Thanks!

I found that CDR Richard Marchinko (SP?) founder of the US Navy SEAL Team Six chose S&W model 66 stainless steel revolvers for his team. His stated reasons for doing so was their ability to quickly drain water when operating in an aquatic environment. He also stated that he "...required his men to be able to take down their target in one or two shots..." and found the 357 revolver an excellent tool to do it with. S&W 686 revolvers are evidently in their inventory today.

The French GIGN use revolvers as well. The GIGN are a French law enforcement orginization who responds to terrorist threats. They often encounter hostage situations and often find themselves engaged in CQC. From everything I've been able to read - and there isn't much - particularly in English - there are several reasons that the revolver is used by this elite force. The revolver is not pushed out of battery in close range, grappling combat. The revolver is superbly accurate. In fact, the GIGN use long barreled revolvers (complete with tri pods) for "sniping" shots at targets.

A fellow by the name of Raymond Sasia is largely responsible for the use of revolvers by the GIGN and evidently by several other European law enforcement agencies including the German GSG 9.

Sasia was a war hero in France who became Charles de Gaulle's bodyguard. He was a judo expert as well as a firearms expert. In the 1960's Sasia attended the FBI academy for firearms training. He took what he learned here back to Framce and implemented it in the formation of a national firearms training academy.

Sasia was a proponent of the 3" 357 revolver for law enforcement and bodyguard use. He was instrumental in the design of the S&W 3" 547 9mm revolver as well as a special limited run of fixed sight 3" model 19's for the "Presidential Hunting party" - the bodyguards of the French President. Eventually - due to technical problems - the 3" 547 9mm's were discarded in favor of 3 and 4 inch model 13 357 magnums.

The excellent and unbelievably durable MR73 357 revolver is also in widespread use. Purported to have a 200,000 round service life firing 357 Norma rounds!

So, with very little effort on my part, here are some documented examples of folks who go in harms way and are "using revolvers for serious purpose!"

I encourage those of you who know of other examples of serious revolver use going on today, to post it and share with those of us who may be unaware. Thanks! TJ

 

[Sam1911]

In fact, the GIGN use long barreled revolvers (complete with tri pods) for "sniping" shots at targets.

Uh...o.k. I'm going to need to see a picture of that. Not "hey look what we did once," but "this is our preferred system."

ETA: Ok...I found one: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/France/GIGN/gi-elite.jpg That's awesome! And hilarious!

I like revolvers as much as the next guy, but I don't see much here that is current information. Marcinko left the service in 1988. Probably going to be difficult to gain hard facts about whether the Teams are still carrying revolvers into harm's way. (And the idea that he "required" his men to take out targets with only one or two shots is just the sort of embellishment he is know for.) GSG 9 does not list any revolvers in their list of arms. GIGN does (686 and MR73), among rather a whole lot else.

Revolvers are wonderful, and have a long and honorable history of service. But there seems to be little reality to any belief that they are still THE or even A choice of a "professional" going into harm's way in the 21st century. For anti-personnel purposes, there's really nothing that a revolver can do that an auto can't do, with more rounds on tap. Coupled with the slowness of reloads, the bulkiness of ammo and ammo carriers, etc. it just isn't going to happen.

 

[45_auto]

Both your examples are ancient history. If Marchinko and Sasia had been making their choices after 1982, they would have picked a Glock!

 

[ForumSurfer]

Both your examples are ancient history. If Marchinko and Sasia had been making their choices after 1982, they would have picked a Glock!

3 posts into a tactical revolver thread and someone mentioned a glock.

He has a point, though. More rounds, easier to carry (and faster) reloads, maritime springcups fix the water issues...I'm just not seeing a solid reason to choose a revolver in that situation other than simple preference.

I'm a revolver fan, too.

 

[JFrame]

Not going to get into an argument of revolver vs. semiauto, which would be tantamount to a religious war among some of the faithful...But just wanted to add something I recall from an article I read about GIGN.

They were evidently hell on wheels with their Manhurin .357's. Based on the training regimen of GIGN agents, the revolvers had to be able to withstand a diet of 150 rounds of hot 158-grain loads daily, for a life cycle of 200,000 rounds.

One demonstration they would give is a simulation of a hostage situation taking place on the ground (full-size dummies as terrorists and hostages). The GIGN agents would rappell down the side of a building, stop half-way and, using the building as a brace, fire their Manhurins. In an instant, each terrorist would have one of their hands shot off. It was assumed that the GIGN agents did that for the sensitivity of the audience, and would place their shots elsewhere in an actual encounter...


.

 

[Gato Montés]

The revolver is not pushed out of battery in close range, grappling combat.

This is why I prefer and recommend snubbies for close range self defense work. Self defense almost by definition indicates close range where the threat of an in your face hand to hand tussling match is very much a real possibility.

I can't remember where, but I recall reading that the S&W642 was the preferred off duty/BUG for various department, one being the Chicago PD. How's that for an endorsement of the venerable wheel gun.

 

[18DAI]

My examples are dated? OK.

How about that abomination of a revolver - the TRR8 ? - it's the ugly 8 shot festooned with rails - currently made by the company calling itself S&W.

Allegedly, that monstrosity was made for a US law enforcement agency. Seems they wanted the first fellow in a stack - the one carrying the ballistic shield - to have a gun that would not hang up being fired one handed, or when a slide contacted the shield. Thats the story that was pushed at the time it was unveiled anyway. They should have spared us the unveiling IMO. In fact, put a Burka on that pig.

 

[ForumSurfer]

How about that abomination of a revolver - the TRR8 ?

Easy now...that "abomination" is on my wish list.

Allegedly, that monstrosity was made for a US law enforcement agency. Seems they wanted the first fellow in a stack - the one carrying the ballistic shield - to have a gun that would not hang up being fired one handed, or when a slide contacted the shield. Thats the story that was pushed at the time it was unveiled anyway. They should have spared us the unveiling IMO. In fact, put a Burka on that pig.

That makes it a specialized weapon. Something like the PGO shotguns that many agencies and the military use strictly for breaching doors Once the specialized weapon is used, the person transitions to another weapon or that person steps aside when the specialized weapon's single role is fulfilled.

That's a "serious purpose" as you said, but highly specialized. I'd like to see if any departments are actually using them.

Like I said, that monstosity is on my wish list. Whether it is considered serious or not...I'd use it for defense. Mindset>Skillset>Equipment

 

[bikemutt]

I just recently switched from a Ruger LCR .38 spc to a Ruger LC9 for EDC. The LC9's fully loaded weight is a bit more but that's offset by a thinner, more easily concealed profile. 3 extra rounds of arguably more powerful ammo, easier and faster reload times are also a plus. And whereas practice time with the snubbie was painful and a chore, the auto is a pleasure to shoot, considerably less felt recoil.

It's still the only auto I own, but for this purpose I'll probably stick with it.

 

[armoredman]

A revolver has something over any auto pistol made - it can be fired out of a gunport without an instant jam. An auto's slide will catch the top of the gunport in recoil, and cause, best case, a jam, worst case, jam and ripped off front sight.
I carry a Smith Model 10-8 38 Spl sometimes, even to work and back once in a while, and I just smile at the gigglers. I love my CZ autos, but I certainly don't feel underarmed with my old 4" 38 wheelgun, and if my choice was a 38 or a Glock...I'd probably stick with the wheelgun. BUT, that's just my preference.

 

[easyg]

The revolver is not pushed out of battery in close range, grappling combat.

This is why I prefer and recommend snubbies for close range self defense work. Self defense almost by definition indicates close range where the threat of an in your face hand to hand tussling match is very much a real possibility.

Not so fast...

While the revolver cannot be pushed out of battery, it can be rendered inoperative if your foe simply grasps the cylinder.
Grabbing the cylinder will prevent it from revolving and will prevent it from firing till the cylinder is released.

Revolvers are also less rugged than autoloaders.
Autoloaders can withstand drops and knocks and bangs much better than revolvers.

 

[jungle]

I was fortunate enough to visit a SEAL armory back in the early nineties. Sure enough they still had some of those 4" model 66s in inventory, but nobody was using them.

That was then and this is now, for a variety of very good reasons no first line unit uses any revolver at present. Not a knock on revolvers, but the fact is that they are not used by any elite units now, although some agencies continued to use them through the early nineties.

They still have utility, but have become as rare as hen's teeth with units likely to shoot for blood.

 

[Gato Montés]

While the revolver cannot be pushed out of battery, it can be rendered inoperative if your foe simply grasps the cylinder.

Easier said than done, especially on a slender five shot J Frame cylinder. Even still, rotating the weapon in the opposite direction of the cylinders movement will counter for that, allowing the weapon to fire.

On the other hand, the slide of an autoloader can also be grasped shutting it down. Not only that, but anything that interferes with the slides operation can result in a jam, rendering it useless until cleared. A hand, finger, piece of clothing, or even pressing the pistol into someone can cause a misfeed of some sort. And then there's the magazine release which, if accidentally activated in a scuffle, can turn your fifteen round wondernine into a single shot.

Good luck doing a tap, rack, bang with a man on top of you beating your face into the pavement.

Revolvers are also less rugged than autoloaders.
Autoloaders can withstand drops and knocks and bangs much better than revolvers.

So? There's rugged and then there's rugged enough. My gun doesn't have to survive being thrown from an aircraft to get me though an SD shooting.

 

[Kiln]

Not so fast...

While the revolver cannot be pushed out of battery, it can be rendered inoperative if your foe simply grasps the cylinder.
Grabbing the cylinder will prevent it from revolving and will prevent it from firing till the cylinder is released.

Revolvers are also less rugged than autoloaders.
Autoloaders can withstand drops and knocks and bangs much better than revolvers.

This plus if you buy an XD Service model it has an extended rod under the barrel that helps to keep the slide from being pushed back in a self defense situation if it is pushed up against something. Not 100% effective but the design does help.

 

[Cosmoline]

Revolvers are also less rugged than autoloaders.
Autoloaders can withstand drops and knocks and bangs much better than revolvers.

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've even heard that wheelguns will go out of time if dropped on the ground. I doubt there's much I could do to a Redhawk or SP-101 that would damage it seriously. I could beat railroad spikes with a Super Redhawk.

As far as what the "professionals" use, good for them. I could give a wetslap. I'm not going to be riding shotgun in the sand box and if I was the handgun would be WAY down the list of important weapons. You should make your decision based on what works best for you under your circumstances, and what you can and will carry daily. Modeling your own habits on what a government agency does would lead you to fill out a form in triplicate before taking your own car out of the garage.

As far as the "serious" business, concealed carry is absolutely serious. If it's your life on the line it's the most serious thing in your life, or way high up the list. Use what you shoot best, shoot what you use best. Forget whether the SEALs are doing it.

 

[Kiln]

I recently saw an article where a 9mm Glock handgun (model 17 I believe) was tested to to 100k rounds without a breakage. I love revolvers but honestly if you fire one that many times it is more than likely to have problems with lockup or the cylinder crane. I've even heard of S&W revolvers having issues after a few thousand rounds.

As I said I love my revolvers but I doubt they'd go 100k rounds without a parts breakage.

 

[sixgunner455]

Well, Kiln, I dunno how many rounds it has or if it ever had a parts breakage, but I have a 1930 S&W M&P. It was never a safe queen until I bought it about ten years ago - still gets out and gets shot, and was my dad's only gun for several years until he got something he liked better and gave it back to me.

But for the first seventy years or so of its life, it was a Department of Corrections gun - stamped so, with an arsenal number, on the frame. It has been used. A lot. It has very little finish left on the right side. It has a super-slick trigger from the many thousands of training rounds it has fired. It has fired many more while in my possession.

It still locks up tight, and shoots straight. We'll check in on Gaston's plastic gun in, oh, about 2085. I'm sure some of them will be fine, too. But I'm willing to bet this M&P will still be kicking then. Someone will have to ask my grandkids how they like it.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've even heard that wheelguns will go out of time if dropped on the ground. I doubt there's much I could do to a Redhawk or SP-101 that would damage it seriously. I could beat railroad spikes with a Super Redhawk.

As far as what the "professionals" use, good for them. I could give a wetslap. I'm not going to be riding shotgun in the sand box and if I was the handgun would be WAY down the list of important weapons. You should make your decision based on what works best for you under your circumstances, and what you can and will carry daily. Modeling your own habits on what a government agency does would lead you to fill out a form in triplicate before taking your own car out of the garage.

As far as the "serious" business, concealed carry is absolutely serious. If it's your life on the line it's the most serious thing in your life, or way high up the list. Use what you shoot best, shoot what you use best. Forget whether the SEALs are doing it.

+1 Cosmoline!! I don't know how many wannabes there are out there who are the walking definitions of "tacticool." Autos have their function and place, just as revolvers have their function and place. Frankly, I cannot think of one military spec ops or combat unit that universally considers a handguns/sidearm as the primary weapon. There are just waaaay too many CAR4's, M16's and MP5's out there.

The military has a completely different set of requirements than civilian concealed-carry folks, or even the police for that matter. For somebody to jump on a particular weapon bandwagon solely because "that is what SEALs/SF/[insert military spec ops organization here] use" or "that is what the [insert LE organization here] uses" or "that is what [insert old has-been name here] recommends" is pure folly.

One should carry and use what meets the requirements, period. Pistol or revolver.

Personally, I carry J-frame revolvers most of the time, but, I also carry a semi-auto when the requirements call for it. I'm fortunate enough to have a reasonable collection, considerable experience employing the items in my collection, and enough youth remaining to be able to employ them.

 

[Drail]

Any S&W that has issues after a few thousand rounds should never have left the factory. My 1988 625 S&W ran IPSC and pin shoots for at least 17 years and it's still in perfect shape and will outshoot me any day of the week. In a Ransom Rest it will put six rounds through one hole until you get tired of loading it. Of course the new ones are pretty sad compared to the older ones. I have numerous 1911 match guns and I dearly love to shoot them. But I carry a S&W revolver every day. I trust it much more than any 1911.

 

[oldfool]

"there's really nothing that a revolver can do that an auto can't do"

sure there is, Sam1911
no "tap-rack" in the bang !

but to be fair, all that yada yada about grabbing an auto in CQC to keep it out of battery
Every revolver guy knows if you grab the cylinder of a DA wheelie, it will not fire
(which is why some used to suggest backhand hold of a fixed blade knife in off-hand, resting your snubbie side wrist over off-hand wrist, I guess)

Conclusion - none
Advice - enjoy both
knife purely optional, but preferably a non-MIM knife

PS
I do loves wheelies most, old k-frames best of all
but I wear a bottom feeder
but, hey, at least it's an old obsolete bottom feeder !
(a sort-of-1911)

 

[HiVel1]

I like revolvers and have some-also have some autos. Sig has a civilian repro version of the 9mm 226 (US Naval Special Warfare Command version as issued to SEAL teams since 1986)-I have one with the SIG certificate denoting such. Never have seen a comparable S&W deal but I do know the 6 team used the revolvers for deep water infils etc...just shake and bake!



different strokes for ......gota hav ethe firepower to meet the threat-
Autos do rule .

 

[HiVel1]

Just a quick story-I have a friend that spent 2 tours in Nam as an infantry officer (101st Airborne trained) and he told me he threw his Colt 45 away cuz it was junk-he much preferred his M 16 and used it exclusively for his time in combat there!

 

[easyg]

Easier said than done, especially on a slender five shot J Frame cylinder. Even still, rotating the weapon in the opposite direction of the cylinders movement will counter for that, allowing the weapon to fire.

Actually, grasping a revolver and rendering it inoperative is rather easy to do.
Try it with a friend and an unloaded revolver...
Have him hold the revolver in a shooting grip.
You will notice that in a shooting grip the topside of the revolver is very exposed and easy to grasp from the top.
Grasp the revolver from the top and wrap your fingers and thumb around the cylinder.
Even on a snubbie you will be able to get a real good grip.
And it will not fire until you release your grip or the gun gets ripped from your hand.
Rotating the weapon itself will not allow it to fire because the cylinder still can't revolve while being grasped.

However....
Grasping the cylinder will not work if the revolver is already cocked.
Double-action-only revolvers are always at risk to being grasped and rendered useless.

On the other hand, the slide of an autoloader can also be grasped shutting it down. Not only that, but anything that interferes with the slides operation can result in a jam, rendering it useless until cleared. A hand, finger, piece of clothing, or even pressing the pistol into someone can cause a misfeed of some sort.

Yes and no...
If the pistol already has a round chambered, and you grasp the slide but fail to push it out of battery, it will still be able to fire the chambered round.
Sure it will not chamber the next round in the magazine, but if that one round hits you in the brain or heart it's "GAME OVER" for you anyway.

And then there's the magazine release which, if accidentally activated in a scuffle, can turn your fifteen round wondernine into a single shot.

True.
But your foe might need just one shot.

And if the cylinder latch gets pushed with a revolver your "5 for sure" will instantly become a paper-weight.



Easy

 

[easyg]

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've even heard that wheelguns will go out of time if dropped on the ground. I doubt there's much I could do to a Redhawk or SP-101 that would damage it seriously. I could beat railroad spikes with a Super Redhawk.

Whether you want to admit it or not, it's true.
Revolvers just can take a beating like an autoloader can.
It's all in the design...
The internals of the autoloader are protected by the frame and the slide.
A revolvers cylinder is exposed, and that's its weak spot.

If my Glock fell off a three story building I would expect it to work just fine once I retreived it.
I wouldn't expect that my S&W 637 or my Ruger GP100 to work after such a drop.

 

[oldfool]

"If my Glock fell off a three story building I would expect it to work just fine once I retreived it."

and it might
but it just might depend on just how it hits the concrete at the end of the trip
same be true of a Ruger SP101

but the only pertinent question being, would you just pick it up and test fire a live round without pause for doubt or inspection ?
Airplanes drops and bulldozer commercials don't really mean much when the gun is not in your own hand and you are not pulling the trigger on a live round.

Faith is a wonderful thing, it is.
but it sure has got a lot of folks hurt or dead, though
(strive not to drop your gun; mama always did say it was a bad notion)