Several Questions about .357

[Taurus 66]

1. I heard 125 grain .357s add more barrel stress than 158 gr. Is it true as the grain weight decreases it adds more barrel stress?

2. I am currently loading Win Clean 125 gr JSP. Would these be a better close combat round than the Remington 158 gr JHP or worse? What is Win Clean?

3. What high velocity .357 round is best for both maximum penetration within 30 yards and maximum expansion?

4. I have what appears to be scoring line half way down one of the cartridges in a box of 50. It's a distinguished line around the casing that makes me uncertain whether or not I should use it or throw away. What is it? Can I load and safely fire it?

 

[GlenJ]

Win Clean is ammo designed to keep your gun cleaner when shooting not worth the extra $$$ IMO. 125 GR JHP is probably the best self defense ammo for a 357 mag. As far as stressing the barrel I wouldn't worry about it at all in fact it sounds like bull to me.

 

[Lou22]

The 125gr hollow point load is probably the best defensive load. I can see where the idea came from that faster bullets wear out the barrel sooner: the 220 Swift rifle caliber was known at one time for wearing out barrels (it might still do). It pushed bullets at about 4000 fps. I don't think the increase in speed over heavier bullets of the 357 125gr makes any practical difference. The Black Hills load I shoot in my 357 is one of the hotter ones at 1500 fps.

You said your 125gr load is a soft point? For expansion I'd definitely go with a hollow point.

Lou

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't know that the hot 125 grain/.357 Magnum loads "stress" the barrel, but some of them earned a reputation for gas-cutting the bottom of the topstrap where the barrel/cylinder gap is. Also for being hard on the barrel throat. Police departments didn't care. They simply replaced the guns.

You seldom get maximum penetration and expansion in the same load. Expansion works against penetration.

Some cases have what is called a "canular" (spelling may be off) that is supposed to keep the bullet in place. Think of it as a second crimp. It's nothing to worry about.

 

[StrikeEagle]

I agree that the 125 is the top choice for defence against two-legged preditors. The forcing cone issues and the flame cutting talk doesn't bother me... I suspect you have to shoot rather a lot of that stuff before that becomes a problem. I've also 'heard' that flame cutting reaches a certain point, then stops. *shrugs*

StrikeEagle

 

[Standing Wolf]

I have what appears to be scoring line half way down one of the cartridges in a box of 50. It's a distinguished line around the casing that makes me uncertain whether or not I should use it or throw away. What is it? Can I load and safely fire it?

Simple rule of thumb pertaining to cartridges: when in doubt, don't.

 

[dfariswheel]

The "problem" with the 125 grain, jacketed hollow point loads is not "barrel stress" but erosion of the barrel's forcing cone and cracking of the cone, especially in the S&W "K" frame revolvers like the Model 19 and 66.

These guns were built on the S&W frame originally built for the .38 Special, and the thinner rear section of the barrel and forcing cone occasionally developed problems when the police started doing all practice with Magnum ammo.

This is one reason S&W brought out the larger, beefier "L" frame 686.
On these guns, the forcing cone area is thicker and stronger.

Of all the standard .357 Magnum defense ammo, none has a better reputation than the 125 grain jacketed hollow point load.
The two that had the best rep of all was the Remington and Federal versions, since these seemed to be a little hotter.

In any case, the 125 grain load has the best actual street performance of all police revolver ammo, and gained a reputation of being the best fight stopper of them all.

With the 125 grain loads, expansion and penetration is about perfect.
Bullets typically expand fully, and penetration hits the FBI's "magic" depth of the 10 to 13 inches necessary to insure reaching and penetrating vital organs, but not over-penetrate.

If you have ONE case in the box with a line, DO NOT shoot it. Obviously something is wrong with it.
To be safe, pay close attention when shooting the others in the box.

 

[MachIVshooter]

but some of them earned a reputation for gas-cutting the bottom of the topstrap where the barrel/cylinder gap is.

I have never head much of gas cutting regarding the .357 magnum, but this was a real issue with the .357 Maximum.

 

[P95Carry]

Flame cutting is a definite phenomenon - see here on my 686. I bought it used and the previous owner had put a pretty large qty of hot .357's thru. The gun is actually still quite tight considering and I only use it now for PPC with 38 spl target loads.

But here at least is the visual evidence. Many claim it becomes self-limiting - and anyways this is probably only 1% or slightly over of topstrap. That said - a double charge type problem would probably make top strap yield at this area - as a stress weakness point. Not that I intend to try that!!

I think this really deserves to be more in revolvers as a specific forum and will shunt it over.... even tho about ammo. This round is ''par excellence'' a revo round.

 

[scotty]

dfariswheel says it very well.

I read some years ago, can't remember where, that a hot 125 gr .357 load reaches maximum pressure just about the time the rear of the bullet crosses the cylinder gap. It makes sense that this would maximize flame cutting and forcing cone wear.

That being said, I wouldn't be all concerned all that much about shooting such a load from a revolver designed to handle it such as a 686.

 

[Taurus 66]

I read some years ago, can't remember where, that a hot 125 gr .357 load reaches maximum pressure just about the time the rear of the bullet crosses the cylinder gap. It makes sense that this would maximize flame cutting and forcing cone wear.

I sincerely mean no disrespect to you or your information sources, but I believe the pressures continue to increase until the bullet exits the muzzle.

0 0 0 0
__ ____________

0 0 0 0 0
__ ___________

 

[scotty]

Taurus 66, no offense taken. You may be correct. As I said, I don't remember where I came across this info. It seems that it was a discussion about wear and tear resulting from shooting full power .357 loads in K-frame S&W's. It is certainly not my intention to spread spurious info.

 

[Taurus 66]

You may be correct. As I said, I don't remember where I came across this info.

Then again I could be wrong. I'm no expert, but there are more than a few here at THR who would know the answer. Perhaps one of them could stop by and tell us one way or the other.

Chris, would you say 158 gr (or heavier than 125) ammo reduces the likelihood of flame cutting? I'll PM you later on.

I bought it used and the previous owner had put a pretty large qty of hot .357's thru.

That's the reason why I like to purchase "new" rather than buy into someone else's problems. I never bought a used gun and never accepted hand-me-down stuff of any kind from anyone. All my vehicles I bought used, but that's another story.

 

[Jim March]

What's happening is, the 125s are accellerating faster. At the point where they hit the back end of the barrel they're moving faster than a 158 would be.

The other issue is that contrary to what you might think, the 125s need a bigger powder charge and of a hotter burning type. Which means more flaming and a hotter flame which erodes the topstrap.

Ruger came out with a 357Maximum round some years back to be used in special stretch-frame Blackhawks. Good gun but they ended up recalling them as too many fools were running 125s at crazy speeds and just thrashing the hell out of the guns - and it takes a LOT to thrash a Blackhawk!

 

[P95Carry]

Wow - stranger from the deep - Mr March no less. Hi Jim

Jim (Taurus66) - indeed this sums it up pretty well.

That said if 158's are really pushed hard as I think was case in that 686 of mine - and lots of 'em - then cutting will still IMO be a likely effect over time. Just that 125 ''screamers'' will probably have a decided edge.

 

[fisherman66]

Taurus66

I think the max pressure is lowered as the cylinder gap released some of the energy. That said the pressure is still enough to accelerate the bullet after the gap is bridged, but leaking. Narrow gaps (.002") would IMHO make more difference than an extra 2" of barrel and a .008" gap.

Just my take; no data to back it up.

 

[Cosmoline]

The myth that the 125 grain high-vels are better for personal defense is just that--a myth. It has more to do with marketing than ballistics. There have been many threads debating this issue in the past, but given the complete physical absurdity of notions such as "energy dumping" you're much better off using a 158 or 180 grain slug out of a .357. Bigger hole, better penetration, more tissue damage.

 

[carebear]

Bigger hole Cos? It's still .355" (at entry anyway) no matter the grain wt. right?

 

[Cosmoline]

Not if they expand, but I was referring to the length of the hole more than the width, and the all-important large exit wound.

 

[fisherman66]

Cos,

How is the hole bigger (assuming the bullet enters nose first and maintains that trajectory?)

I'm in no way questioning your bullet selection (or weight to be more specific.)

 

[fisherman66]

Nevermind

 

[RyanM]

180 gr Partition Gold and 145 Silvertips are both exceptional loads.

125 gr Wincleans are designed to not leave lead vapor when fired, so they're good for indoor ranges. They make the hugest, orangest flash I've ever seen, though. The jacket they use is brass, rather than copper, which is a lot harder. I did test one in water jugs, once. Neither the bullet nor the jugs were very perturbed by the impact. Might as well have been shooting .38 SPL FMJ.

 

[roo_ster]

Perhaps lighter rounds cause more flame cutting?

FWIW, Taurus says not to use 110gr (or lighter) .357mag in my Total Ti snubbie. 125gr is OK. Perhaps lighter rounds cause more flame cutting?

I thought it odd, since the S&W Ti & Sc snubbies warn against the use of HEAVY bullets.

BTW, 180gr Win Part Gold is my snubbie load. That oughta reach the vitals, yessiree.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Ruger came out with a 357Maximum round some years back to be used in special stretch-frame Blackhawks.

Remington developed the round for silhouette shooting, hence .357 Remington Maximum. Ruger did build a special extended frame BH to use it, but did not listen to Remington when they warned of gas-cutting the top strap. Thus, the Rugers quickly had problems and were discontinued. United Sporting Armory and Freedom arms (I think) also had SA maximum's. Currently, only the Dan Wesson 40/740 and Silhouette and TC contender are chambered in it. I don't believe there are any current factory loads.

 

[BluesBear]

Bullet weight has absolutely NO effect in regards to flame cutting.
It's the powder that is 100% responsible.
In the 1970s Remington paved the way for police use with their excellent 125grain Short In Jacketed Hollow Point bullet load in .357 Magnum ammunition.
The fast burning powder used by Remington in the R357M1 (and the +P R38SP2) load was also infamous for it's extra bright muzzle flash.

Followed closely by Winchester's 125 .357 loads police departmenst around the country adopted the new ammunition in droves. This was about the same time that trainers realised the importance of practicing with the same ammunition you carried. So instead of the long accepted practice of shooting .38 Special target ammunition during training, guns were being fired with an ever increasing amount of high velocity, high pressure ammo.

This as a matter of course began to reveal weaknesses with certain gun/ammo combinations. Remember when the .357 special revolver was introduced there was no such thing as 125gr ammo and many of the faster burning powders had not yet been developed.

A good, general, rule of thumb is that the brighter the muzzle flash the hotter the flame escaping the barrel/cylinder gap will possibly be.

And while almost any loading will still be creating pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel, with some loads the peak can have occured before that.
Either way as long at there is powder burning and pressure being created there will be gas escaping from the b/c gap and that will only cease after the bullet has cleared the muzzle.