sharing my experience with SB dies

[jeffforkliftguy]

Hello all, i have been reading a handful of posts that bring up Small base dies and i see that there are alot of yes's and no's. My intent is NOT to debate anyones opinion just to share my personal experience. Here it is...

I started reloading 223 for my ar15. All went well for over a year. Then i started reloading for my friends ar15. All went well for a few weeks. Then i reloaded more for him and both of us went to the range. I shot all day with zero issues. He fired a couple rounds then.."click". Charging handle stuck, live round chambered, cant split recievers. After much banging on the forward assist, we were able to get the round far enough forward to split the recievers. We had to slam the charging handle on a piece of wood to finally get it to pull back and eject the.round. figured i had done something wrong when reloading.that one. Back to shooting....two rounds later, click again. Now, im shooting the same reloads with no issues in my ar. Same process to get the round out. I put both of those rounds in MY ar and bot fired fine. Guess theres an issues with his rifle. Now, fast forward a few months...at the range and click...now my rifle is doing it. And,.uh oh, my ar10 is doing it too. This.cant be a gun issue, its gotta be an ammo issue. After doing.some research i found when ammo is fired from different rifles, then reloaded with FL dies, they may have issues chambering in a rifle that it wasnt originally fired from. Hmmmm...when it started happening.to MY rifles i thought back and.realized...that round of ammo was brass i picked up at the range from someone else. It was recommended to me to buy a SB die and try again. I did, and two years later and 1000's of rounds of all kinds of brass later....ZERO issues. Zero issues in ANYONES ar's. The SB die takes the brass back down to a factory like spec. The FL die does not. Theres a reason an SBdie was created and recommended for use with ammo used in AR's. Wish i would have learned that reason before i beatup my charging.handles and stressed about all the ammo that may or may not have worked properly when i went to the range.

Again, just my experience and just my opinion but SB dies are a must when reloading for AR's.

Thanx for reading!

 

[cfullgraf]

After doing.some research i found when ammo is fired from different rifles, then reloaded with FL dies, they may have issues chambering in a rifle that it wasnt originally fired from. Hmmmm...when it started happening.to MY rifles i thought back and.realized...that round of ammo was brass i picked up at the range from someone else. It was recommended to me to buy a SB die and try again. I did, and two years later and 1000's of rounds of all kinds of brass later....ZERO issues. Zero issues in ANYONES ar's.

Yup, that is my experience as well.

I have semi-auto rifles chambered in abut 11 or 12 different cartridges and I've stopped screwing around and get small base dies if available. I think 17 Remington and 9x19 are the only two AR cartridges I have that are not small base.

Unfortunately, there are lots of folks who have not needed small base dies for one reason or another that also have a bad case of "Not Invented Here Syndrome".

 

[Laphroaig]

Let me say that if I had the OP's issues, I'd buy SB dies too.

However, my experience with both .223 and 30-06 semis (3 each) have been without issue using regular RCBS dies. I consider myself "fortunate", and also about $100 richer

Laphroaig

 

[steve4102]

I started reloading 223 for my ar15. All went well for over a year. Then i started reloading for my friends ar15. All went well for a few weeks. Then i reloaded more for him and both of us went to the range. I shot all day with zero issues. He fired a couple rounds then.."click". Charging handle stuck, live round chambered, cant split recievers. After much banging on the forward assist, we were able to get the round far enough forward to split the recievers. We had to slam the charging handle on a piece of wood to finally get it to pull back and eject the.round. figured i had done something wrong when reloading.that one. Back to shooting....two rounds later, click again. Now, im shooting the same reloads with no issues in my ar. Same process to get the round out. I put both of those rounds in MY ar and bot fired fine. Guess theres an issues with his rifle. Now, fast forward a few months...at the range and click...now my rifle is doing it. And,.uh oh, my ar10 is doing it too. This.cant be a gun issue, its gotta be an ammo issue. After doing.some research i found when ammo is fired from different rifles, then reloaded with FL dies, they may have issues chambering in a rifle that it wasnt originally fired from. Hmmmm...when it started happening.to MY rifles i thought back and.realized...that round of ammo was brass i picked up at the range from someone else. It was recommended to me to buy a SB die and try again. I did, and two years later and 1000's of rounds of all kinds of brass later....ZERO issues. Zero issues in ANYONES ar's. The SB die takes the brass back down to a factory like spec. The FL die does not. Theres a reason an SBdie was created and recommended for use with ammo used in AR's. Wish i would have learned that reason before i beatup my charging.handles and stressed about all the ammo that may or may not have worked properly when i went to the range.

I'm going to disagree with your conclusions and here is why.

First what you have read or been told about Brass fired from different rifles only apples to Neck Sizing dies NOT Full length dies.

Your FL sizing dies were set up for your rifle with a Minimum Shoulder bump. Your buddies chamber could measure a few thousands different and thus the stuck cases in his rifle.

Being that your FL sized cases are set for a Minimum Shoulder Bump in your rifle, it's not surprising that repeated firings and reloadings cause some of these cases to get stuck in your rifle.

There is a simple explanation for this and it's called "Work Hardening". The more a case if fired and reloaded, the more it loses it's elasticity and it's ability to stay sized. The more times a case is fired and loaded them more "Spring Back" the case will have.

If your dies were set up for minimal shoulder bump with new or once fired brass, then you continue to load these cases over and over without annealing then they will eventually Spring Back and not retain the desired Shoulder bump.

The solution is not a Different die as in SB die, the solution is to 1) adjust your FL dies to get desired shoulder bump with your "work Hardened" brass, 2) anneal the case to bring them back to once fired or new "softness" with a lot less "Spring-back".

here is a good read.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[mdi]

Good report. One other idea; I would measure the offending rounds before I changed dies (anytime there is a failure to feed/chamber, the first thing to do is measure!). Do the "too fat" rounds come about on the first reload? Or second, or fifth?

 

[41 Mag]

I have one each in .308 and 30-06. I use them to run my range pick up through as well as any once fired I might decide to purchase.

I pull the sizing ball off the end and use them on everything else I have based on these two as well.

I had one round jam up my bolt action tot he point I had to bring it home and drive it out with a brass rod and mallet. No more jammed up rifles for me period. Once was enough....regardless of naysayers and fine tuning FL dies.

 

[Slamfire]

The SB die takes the brass back down to a factory like spec. The FL die does not. Theres a reason an SB die was created and recommended for use with ammo used in AR's. Wish i would have learned that reason before i beatup my charging.handles and stressed about all the ammo that may or may not have worked properly when i went to the range.

Bolt gunners still dominate the reloading advice columns of forums and Gun Magazines. Many of these happy fools piss all over small base dies, consider neck sizing or partial neck sizing the epitome of reloading perfection. They also don’t use case gages to determine if they are even sizing the case to the correct dimensions.


You find all over forums the parroted advice of “sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn”. Once I bought case gages, and measured cases sized following that procedure, I don’t know if I ever found a case sized between “Go” and “No Go”.

The design of bolt guns allows happy fools to chamber their sloppy reloads and get away with it. The massive leverage found in the cocking cams of bolt guns will crunch fit oversized cases without the fool being aware of the interference fit. As long as they can beat the bolt handle down, the rifle will go boom. Subsequently, fools will tell you in all seriousness, (because it turns out, the more ignorant the fool, the more confident their answer) that you don’t need small base dies. Some of these fools are “prestigious” gunwriters. Mike Venturino, the gunwriter, is one of those who for years has stated in print, that small base sizing dies are not needed for gas guns. I find it humorous that in the July 2012 of Guns his reloads were so fat and so long, that with the AR10 and M1a he was testing, he could not get the bolt closed. He could not fire the rounds out because the bolts were out of battery, but the rounds were so jammed in the chamber he could not extract the rounds. In the end he had to take these rifles out back, with live rounds in the chamber, and beat the bolts open with scrap lumber to eject the rounds.

Ha, ha, poetic justice.

The bottom line for me, gas guns require much more precise ammunition to function correctly than the “standard sizing die” fool can conceive. You shoot enough ammunition, enough times, in enough gas guns, and you will encounter over sized ammunition problems created by cases sized in standard sizing dies. Yes, there is a reason why factory ammunition is smaller than your standard based sized cases: tolerance stackup.

In my opinion there are two essential items for reloading for gas guns: the first is a small base die, and the second is a case gage so you can measure just how much you are sizing the case.

If you can't measure what you are doing, you have no idea what you are doing.

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

None of MY brass is work hardened. I cant speak for the range pickups but i literally have so much 223 and 308 brass that it would take me, a year to reload everyone and fire them all. Excluding the range brass, my brass hasnt made it to three reloads yet. Unfortunetly, j dont sort my brass, its all stored in gallon size zip lock bags. The only sorting that takes place is, reload or trash. But, assuming that work hardened brass was the issue, from the day i started using those SB dies, ive had absolutely no problems at all. As i said before, theres a reason those dies were created. I swear by them. Id say the next time it happens ill measure and report but...it just doesnt happen anymore!!!

 

[Walkalong]

Bottom line is either die has to be set up properly to get full benefit. I size brass for bolt guns differently than for autos.

If you size cases for use in just any "in spec" rifle of that caliber, and especially autos, you need the brass sized smaller than for bolt guns. It needs to fit a SAMMI minimum spec chamber, just like factory ammo will.

I really don't know if standard dies will do this, but why would die makers make them if they could not sufficiently size good brass down enough. I always "assumed" the small base dies were for brass fired in fat chambers, machine gun brass, or maybe work hardened brass.

I do know so far I haven't had a problem with standard dies for .223 in ARs, one of which with a match chamber which I "assumed" had a tight chamber, but maybe I have just been lucky.

Slamfire1 has been tougher than usual on us today.

(I respect his advise by the way, and read his postings with great interest.)

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfire1 has been tougher than usual on us today.

Sorry, I have been in an argumentative, grumpy mood today

I have personally kicked open enough AR bolts, on the firing line, because of ammunition sized with standard based dies, but chambered in a match AR15, that patience on this issue sometimes wears thin.

 

[Walkalong]

Understandable.

Do you feel it is always the dies, or is it operator error sometimes?

 

[maxxhavoc]

OK, so if I am using standard dies and all are "go" on a Wilson gauge, is there a reason to use SB dies? In every 100 rounds, I may run into 2 or 3 that are high on the gauge, but another ride in the FL die fixes it.

I figured those were just moments of weakness.

 

[murf]

the l. e. wilson case gauge does not measure body diameter.

murf

 

[maxxhavoc]

The things you learn. Yep, just mic'd my Wilson case gauge and it looks like it is about .007 over SAAMI at the widest point. Not much, but certainly enough.

I guess I get to buy a new die set or 2.

 

[murf]

calipers and a saami cartridge/chamber diagram should get you where you need to be.

murf

 

[zeke]

When using picked up range brass, or sizing brass for use in differing rifles, have learned to use sb dies. Especially for semi's. Another lesson learned the hard way. And not all sb dies are created equal.

For the rifles owned, this means brass fired out of looser chambered FAL's can be used with any of the 308's owned if using a sb die. That would include tighter chambered DSA, Rock River, BLR, CZ 550 varmint.

Also have several bolt rifles I keep the brass segregated, and started with new brass. These don't need the sb dies.

Have worked with brass fired from full auto and hk-91, once. No way could you even begin with a sb die. Had to do it in steps with regular die, then sb die.

Rifles, chambers, brass, dies, operating systems etc are all different. You do what works for your intended purpose, making it real difficult to give generalized advise.

 

[Reloadron]

the l. e. wilson case gauge does not measure body diameter.

murf

Yeah, out of curiosity I did a casting of one once. While useful they do not measure case diameter. I guess some are advertised to measure case diameter that are gauges cut with a chamber reamer.

When problems like those mentioned by jeffforkliftguy arise my first suggestion is to use a marker or dykum and paint a case or two that seem difficult to chamber. Try and cycle those cases. Inspect the cases for the rub marks and rest assured if a case is difficult chambering there will be rub marks.

Small Base Dies
A Small Base Die is just another type of full-length sizing die, but one that is typically used when reloading for semi-automatic rifles, like the AR-15, M14, or AR-style .308 rifles. (It may also work well for bolt guns that need extra sizing on the lower section of the case.) A small base die works exactly like a full-length sizing die, only it compresses the brass just a bit more, usually about .001″ more, and may even push the case shoulder back just a hair. Small base dies give that extra bit of compression to the brass to help make sure the case will properly extract from a semi-automatic firearm. The upside is that you get precision handloads that should work flawlessly in your semi-automatic. The downside is case life is really shortened, especially compared to brass used only in one bolt-action rifle, because the brass is worked more.

The above quote was taken from here.

So if you find rub marks around the base of the cases you know the shoulder setting is not the cause of the problem.

During the 40 years I have been rolling my own I never had a problem, right up till... I know my brass and which rifle it was fired in, be it M1A, AR10 or my bolt gun. I inherited some loaded 308 from my sister whose husband passed away a few years ago. Mike was a meticulous hand loader, about OCD about his work at the bench. He apparently got a deal years ago on Cavim 7.62 X 51 ammunition. The ammunition was likely fired in one of his AR 10 rifles then hand loaded. I decided to try what my sister gave me. Difficult chambering in my M1A. The rounds look perfect in my case gauges. Right till using a micrometer I measure about 0.2" up from the bases. Maybe they will better chamber in my AR 10? I won't even try the bolt gun. Oh well, never say never.

Ron

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

right from sierra exterior ballistics website...

"Small Base Sizing"

"Some firearms will require that fired cases be returned to approximately unfired dimensions. This is the purpose of the so called small base sizing die. In essence, this is nothing more than a standard full length sizing die, which has been reamed to absolute minimum dimensions. Tight chambers, a lack of camming power, or a combination of these may require cases to be sized to these smaller dimensions to assure positive chambering. As we have noted, most conventional full length sizing dies reduce a case’s fired dimensions enough to allow the case to be easily rechambered, without bringing it down to its original, unfired dimensions. In some instances, this will not quite be sufficient to assure positive operation and functioning. This most often occurs in firearms that lack the camming power of a bolt action, such as semi-autos, pumps, and lever actions. Sierra has worked with a large number of these types of firearms that functioned perfectly well with conventional full length dies, and suggest resorting to small base dies only if they prove to be necessary. They do work the brass more, and will usually result in reduced case life."

 

[cfullgraf]

They do work the brass more, and will usually result in reduced case life."

Over working the cases was the main reason I resisted going to 100% small base sizing for my semi-auto rifles.

While I do not doubt the cases get worked more on resizing, I have found that my case life in semi-auto rifles is unchanged, cases fail for for the same reasons as before small base sizing and at the same rate.

 

[GLOOB]

You find all over forums the parroted advice of “sizing to the shell holder plus a quarter turn”. Once I bought case gages, and measured cases sized following that procedure, I don’t know if I ever found a case sized between “Go” and “No Go”.

Yeah, this can be bad advice. Unless you are trying to custom fit to you chamber, you don't "adjust" a FLR die. You are just trying to set it to where the die bottoms out on the shellholder when your cases are in the press, stretching the press out. You only "tune it" at all to make sure that happens, and that it happens close enough to the apex that you don't lose too much leverage. A quarter turn just happens to do the trick with most presses. If your press has too much slop and flex, you may need to screw the die down farther than that. But once set, assuming your FLR die is in spec, most cases will size just fine. I wonder if your first press was loose or your die or batch of brass odd in some respect. It's normal for some cases to not size all the way in the shoulder. Those cases are stretched. A SB die can fix some of them, but even a SB die won't fix all of them. Some rifles have a tight chamber dimensions and need extra sizing of the BASE of some cases that were fired in another rifle. They might need a SB die. Most AR15's don't have that tight a chamber, but it sounds like AR10's are more of a problem.

There's no "need" or "don't need". There are simply two sizes of dies you can use for different purposes. A small base die to rifle brass is kinda like what a "bulge buster" is for pistol brass. At least, that's the way I see it. If your entire batch didn't size correctly, it might have been bad dies or adjustment or bad brass.

Personally, I started with 1000 interweb cases, and I found about 8-12 that wouldn't size correctly, in the shoulder. All the others were between go and no-go on my case gauge, using regular dies and using essentially the same "1/4 turn" instructions but understanding the deeper meaning behind it. Some of the one that failed were way long. I annealed and resized them, successfully, but they subsequently separated on the first or second loading.

After doing.some research i found when ammo is fired from different rifles, then reloaded with FL dies, they may have issues chambering in a rifle that it wasnt originally fired from. Hmmmm...when it started happening.to MY rifles i thought back and.realized...that round of ammo was brass i picked up at the range from someone else. It was recommended to me to buy a SB die and try again. I did, and two years later and 1000's of rounds of all kinds of brass later....ZERO issues.

For one, you don't know if this pickup was too big in headspace or base diameter. Yes, you have to be careful picking up 223 brass. You might very well need a small base die for your specific rifle. But you do not need a SB die for THIS reason. There's another way to deal with this issue. One thing you can do is gauge your pickups and/or mic the base and THROW AWAY the ones that are too big in headspace. That's what I do. And I do this even before sizing them. If they don't fit, or at least very nearly fit, BEFORE sizing, I don't want to fire them in my gun even if they size, correctly. Once a case has been stretched, significantly, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. The case is permanently damaged and is a step closer to separating. If your rifle has a tight chamber at the base, you may find brass that has been stretched too much in base diameter. It may be most practical to buy a SB die in this case. It depends on where your brass is coming from and in what condition.

I find it humorous that in the July 2012 of Guns his reloads were so fat and so long, that with the AR10 and M1a he was testing, he could not get the bolt closed. He could not fire the rounds out because the bolts were out of battery, but the rounds were so jammed in the chamber he could not extract the rounds. In the end he had to take these rifles out back, with live rounds in the chamber, and beat the bolts open with scrap lumber to eject the rounds.

Yes, but you do not know the reason for this. It could be nothing to do with SB dies vs regular. Some of his rifles might have out of spec chambers. Or the OAL might have been too long, jamming the bullet into the rifling. Or he might have used too much crimp.

Finally, let's take the case that your particular rifle has a larger than normal chamber. A regular die might be small, already. So I find it odd to hear someone claim that you unconditionally need a SB die to reload for a semiauto.

While I do not doubt the cases get worked more on resizing, I have found that my case life in semi-auto rifles is unchanged, cases fail for for the same reasons as before small base sizing and at the same rate.

Certainly, this may be the case for most rifles/loads. But if you have a slightly big chamber in some dimension and are loading hot, a SB die might decrease case life and/or cause need for more frequent annealing - for those that anneal rather than toss. Overworking brass is probably a relatively minor issue, IMO. But how about force of sizing? I have a bulge buster for 40SW cases. I use it on bulged cases. But if I had to use it on every single case, every single time, I would stop reloading 40SW. It's too much work.

 

[jeffforkliftguy]

.....so what im pulling away from all that is...i can spend an enormous amount of time mic-ing every single case i have, which is probably close to 10,000 between the 223 and 308, and then seperate them and then shoot some in my bolt, some in my semis, and then constantly keep them seperated so as not to put the bolt rounds in my semis. Or, i can just buy an SB die and size everything back to factory spec so that no matter what it came from and where its going, i know it will feed and chamber reliably everytime. And spend ALL that extra time reloading all the other calibers i am behind on...lol. not being sarcastic, just seems to me like its pretty much:

1. Take the highway and get there in 15 mins.
2. Take the backroads and hit every light on the way and get there in an hour.

Some of you seem MUCH more experienced than myself so i wont argue the possibilities of other issues but bottom line was, my problem, in multiple rifles, disappeared when i starting SB resizing everything.

 

[carbine85]

I have at least 6 rifles in .223 / 5.56. I also have FL and SB dies. One of my rifles has a target / match grade barrel that requires the SB dies. The others work fine with the FL dies. The chamber on my match barrel is very tight and won't chamber reloaded brass reliably unless I use the SB dies. I typically just use the the SB dies and don't worry about chambering. I also check my cases with a Lyman gauge.
The bottom line is use whatever works for you.

 

[GLOOB]

.....so what im pulling away from all that is...i can spend an enormous amount of time mic-ing every single case i have, which is probably close to 10,000 between the 223 and 308, and then seperate them and then shoot some in my bolt, some in my semis, and then constantly keep them seperated so as not to put the bolt rounds in my semis. Or, i can just buy an SB die and size everything back to factory spec so that no matter what it came from and where its going, i know it will feed and chamber reliably everytime. And spend ALL that extra time reloading all the other calibers i am behind on...lol. not being sarcastic, just seems to me like its pretty much:

Well, no. I suggested you do this only on new pickups, not brass fired from your own rifles. Furthermore I said that if it's the BASE of the case causing your issue, you may be better off getting a SB die. (Or possibly a chamber-cut case gauge.) And if you shoot the same ammo in several rifles, you MIGHT need a SB die, or you might not. It is entirely possible to own multiple rifles that will work with each others' spent cases. And there's no specific distinction between bolts or semiautos. You can have two bolt guns with different enough chambers to need a SB die. And you can have 2 semiautos that happily work fine in tandem.

Chances are pretty good, if you are talking about 223, anyhow, that the problem one will run into is with headspace, not base diameter. If your brass gets routinely mixed up with other pickups, you MIGHT be better off just getting a SB die, if that fixes most of the issues. But even a SB die is not going to fix all random pickups. Only the ones that are borderline. You can still pick up random cases that will fail AFTER SB sizing. Another way to increase your headspace margin for error, if you don't mind overworking some cases, is to sand down the base of your regular FLR die and/or the top of the shellholder. Or you can even buy +- shellholders.

Another thing you might do is to use the SB die on pickups, just once, for extra insurance. (Again, this won't fix ALL brass, and it might mask some cases that have been significantly stretched.) And for brass fired from your own rifle, you might find a regular die works just fine up until your cases die of bad neck tension or loose primer pockets. For most of us, we are primarily reloading our OWN brass, once we have accumulated a working pile.

1. Take the highway and get there in 15 mins.
2. Take the backroads and hit every light on the way and get there in an hour.

3. Be aware of what the potential problems are, get familiar with your own process and rifles and brass, and use the appropriate tools (or make due with what you have, knowing and working around the shortcomings), as indicated.

 

[murf]

glad you brought this up, jefforkliftguy (can we just call you hyster?). this thread cleared up a lot of grey area.

sb dies work well for large volume reloading. f/l sizing dies won't fully size the base if you partial size your cases. calipers or a mic can be used as a case gauge to "weed out those large bases (sometimes it's best to take the long road home). l. e. wilson case gauge doesn't measure body diameter.

sounds like problem solved

murf

 

[OYE]

Thought the op's original post was interesting.

Many of these happy fools piss all over small base dies, consider neck sizing or partial neck sizing the epitome of reloading perfection

.

The design of bolt guns allows happy fools to chamber their sloppy reloads and get away with it. The massive leverage found in the cocking cams of bolt guns will crunch fit oversized cases without the fool being aware of the interference fit. As long as they can beat the bolt handle down, the rifle will go boom. Subsequently, fools will tell you in all seriousness, (because it turns out, the more ignorant the fool, the more confident their answer) that you don’t need small base dies.

These posts were not.

I have personally kicked open enough AR bolts, on the firing line, because of ammunition sized with standard based dies, but chambered in a match AR15, that patience on this issue sometimes wears thin.

How embarrassing !!!!!!!!!!
One would hope you would find this at least slightly embarrassing the "first time".


We do question "who" is calling "who" fool here. Many of us have reloaded for bolt guns and AR 15s without ever kicking either type of bolt open or beating on charging handles with a block of wood. And some have even reported loading M 1 Garands without even that first "slamfire".

So why is this? We didn't start reloading for the AR and the garands until we were sure we could do so safely by following safe reloading procedures. That includes using "high quality components" of "known origin" and keeping detailed records. The same as we did when we first started reloading for bolt action guns. OYE