sharing my experience with SB dies

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Murf....although i did work for.hyster for a few years, not a fan. Ive been a forklift tech for 13 years now...toyota, clark, hyster, and now yale. Toyota lifts are my favorite but the yale company i currently work for has been the best so far.
 
I typically just use the the SB dies and don't worry about chambering. I also check my cases with a Lyman gauge.

Me too....now. When I first started loading .223 I used regular FL dies from RCBS.....that was 40 years ago and the gun was a cool little Ruger Mini 14. Shucks that gun would shoot anything you put in it.....reminds me of today's AKs!. Loose chambers, loose groups!:)

My next semi auto was a Remington R25 (that, folks, is Remington's DPMS-built AR-10 clone.) I was in for a surprise, as Remington had it built to be a accurate hunting rifle. So at the range, the first five I shot was Remington Core-lokts. Shot 'em standing and very fast for effect (to test feed-ability). Perfect! Even hit the target. Then I tried 5 Federal Power-shoks....the same way....but only the first round fired, the second stopped 1/4" from battery. I was shok'd alright! I repeated the same thing several times, and with other samples out of the box. Same result. These were factory not reloads. Back in went the Core-lokts and no more feeding problems....shot great!

So, I had a feeling I ought not to tempt fate with this rifle and I bought a small base sizer for reloading the beast. All I can say is ..... zero feeding/firing issues with my reloads. Score 1 for me....0 for Federal factory.

Point? Some rifles have minimum chambers for accuracy....and my example is, sub moa even. I'm pretty sure I would have had problems with FL dies, if I had problems with Federal's blue box Power-Shoks.

One more thought. We all know factory ammo is supposed to work well in all firearms. Reloads have reputations....partly due to people who don't do it right (it ain't rocket science), and partly due to cases not being resized back close enough to factory by today's neck sizers and FL sizers.

SB sizers don't resize back to factory either....but at least they are the next best. It's plain amazing what a mere .002" smaller diameter near the base can do for reliability.

Question: Do you want ammo that only shoots in the gun you have now? If so use FL sizers and enjoy. But don't load 10 years worth....you may sell or lose that rifle before you shoot half of it. All my gas gun ammo is SB sized, now.

Case longevity issues? For gas guns? They tear the hell out of brass. No they won't last as long as your bolt fodder. But who cares....especially if you are loading for rainy day stock. I want it to feed-n-fire 10-20 years from now in anything I find to shoot. (if I live that long)
 
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Thought the op's original post was interesting.

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These posts were not.




How embarrassing !!!!!!!!!!
One would hope you would find this at least slightly embarrassing the "first time".


We do question "who" is calling "who" fool here. Many of us have reloaded for bolt guns and AR 15s without ever kicking either type of bolt open or beating on charging handles with a block of wood. And some have even reported loading M 1 Garands without even that first "slamfire".

So why is this? We didn't start reloading for the AR and the garands until we were sure we could do so safely by following safe reloading procedures. That includes using "high quality components" of "known origin" and keeping detailed records. The same as we did when we first started reloading for bolt action guns. OYE
Really...I found slamfires post both interesting and informative.
 
OK, he was grumpy and it showed, but the post had useful information. Let's stay focused on the SB die debate.
 
Unfortunately, there are lots of folks who have not needed small base dies for one reason or another that also have a bad case of "Not Invented Here Syndrome".
You load the same ammo for shooting in 11 different rifles. I'd say you are in the minority, here, lol.

In general, one MIGHT want to size the case as little as possible for their rifle(s) while ensuring reliable chambering. This is for amount of work involved, case life, and accuracy.

If the size of the case doesn't matter, why do people make AR's with tighter "match" 223 chambers and Wylde chambers?

When you buy a rifle with a match chamber and then you automatically use a SB die, without first trying a regular die and brass dedicated to that gun, aren't you defeating the purpose? Just like one person might load the same ammo for 11 different rifles, I'm sure there are some benchrest shooters that load 11 different rifles with 11 separate sets of cases.

Another thing to consider is rifles operate at such high pressures that the case web expands a bit, depending on the size of the chamber. If your chamber is large enough where this back-and-forth is significant, could that make the web brittle over time, maybe?

The question I have is not "why were SB dies invented." I know the answer. Have you wondered why regular dies were made the way they are? I'm thinking for ammo where 60K+ psi is repeatedly fire-forming cases to individual chambers and accuracy matters (e.g. rifle ammo), the more size options the better. Heck, I'd like to have some more options in my pistols dies, even, for when I'm loading cast vs jacketed.

All's I know for myself is when I fire factory PMC 223 in my rifle, the web expands. A lot. The PMC brass has soft caseheads and the fired cases show me my chamber ain't close to tight in the web. I would not go with a SB die unless I needed to. But I agree that if you want your ammo to have the best chance of working in any rifle, you have to use a SB die. And for .223, case life is not very important due to cost and availability.

The thing that really bugs me though is this: Manufacturers say that SB dies overwork brass and reduce case life. But HOW. My cases die of cracked nor loose necks or primer pockets. SB dies don't change neck dimensions. They are a couple thou smaller through the body and they size lower down the base. So what happens when these cases die? I can see how this works the neck more by causing more stretching in general. But where does all that extra brass you are trimming come from? I would be concerned this also increased web thining and casehead separation. In YOUR rifles, this might not happen. In my sloppy rifle, this might cause an issue. I'm not concerned regarding safety. I have had separations, and they're no big deal. But a jam is a jam. And I haven't had any jams that a SB die would have fixed. I have had jams that a SB die might possibly exacerbate.
 
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I can just add that my M1A Supermatch does not ALWAYS close the bolt completely with normal dies. You have to check the bolt each time and whap the op-rod to close the bolt occasionally.

I bought SB dies and this problem disappeared. Accuracy did not change so I just keep using them. Great stuff.
 
Comments in Red.

You load the same ammo for shooting in 11 different rifles. I'd say you are in the minority, here, lol.

For clarity, I have eleven semi-auto rifles (ARs, M1s, and M1As) chambered for eleven different cartridges. I do have a few duplicate rifles for cartridges like 300 BLK and 223 Remington. I like building ARs.

In general, one MIGHT want to size the case as little as possible for their rifle(s) while ensuring reliable chambering. This is for amount of work involved, case life, and accuracy.

Agreed depending on the purpose of the round. For general purpose work, I find cases fail for reasons other than an over worked body. Also, I have not seen any difference in accuracy from MY SHOOTING between carefully crafted ammunition and general purpose ammunition

If the size of the case doesn't matter, why do people make AR's with tighter "match" 223 chambers and Wylde chambers?

Cases fired in my Service Rifle AR can be resized with a standard resizing die and they will re-chamber just fine. But, cases fired in my Colt Match Target and resized in a standard resizing die may not chamber in my Service Rifle AR.

When you buy a rifle with a match chamber and then you automatically use a SB die, without first trying a regular die and brass dedicated to that gun, aren't you defeating the purpose? Just like one person might load the same ammo for 11 different rifles, I'm sure there are some benchrest shooters that load 11 different rifles with 11 separate sets of cases.

Precision rifle shooting is another kettle of fish. When I shot Service Rifle, I had dedicated cases and dies just for that purpose and rifle. Bench rest shooters and 1000 yard shooters have a completely different set of needs than I do.

Sierra Bullets in their essay on loading for gas guns recommends not spending alot of time preparing the cases as case life is so short any way


Another thing to consider is rifles operate at such high pressures that the case web expands a bit, depending on the size of the chamber. If your chamber is large enough where this back-and-forth is significant, could that make the web brittle over time, maybe?

The question I have is not "why were SB dies invented." I know the answer. Have you wondered why regular dies were made the way they are? I'm thinking for ammo where 60K+ psi is repeatedly fire-forming cases to individual chambers and accuracy matters (e.g. rifle ammo), the more size options the better. Heck, I'd like to have some more options in my pistols dies, even, for when I'm loading cast vs jacketed.

No disagreement here except that with a gas gun, chambering the round is the weak link and needs to be addressed even at the expense of some accuracy items.

In my opinion, part of the reason for the discussion on the need for small base dies is the accumulation of tolerances between dies and rifles. One gentleman will have a die at the upper edge of the specs while another will have one more to the center. The first gentleman has problems, the second does not.

I think someone that is having trouble with chambering due to the body not being sized enough could easily try another standard resizing die. It most probably will solve the problem but maybe not. Or he could just buy a small base die and be done with it.


All's I know for myself is when I fire factory PMC 223 in my rifle, the web expands. A lot. The PMC brass has soft caseheads and the fired cases show me my chamber ain't close to tight in the web. I would not go with a SB die unless I needed to. But I agree that if you want your ammo to have the best chance of working in any rifle, you have to use a SB die. And for .223, case life is not very important due to cost and availability.

The thing that really bugs me though is this: Manufacturers say that SB dies overwork brass and reduce case life. But HOW. My cases die of cracked nor loose necks or primer pockets. SB dies don't change neck dimensions. They are a couple thou smaller through the body and they size lower down the base. So what happens when these cases die? I can see how this works the neck more by causing more stretching in general. But where does all that extra brass you are trimming come from? I would be concerned this also increased web thining and casehead separation. In YOUR rifles, this might not happen. In my sloppy rifle, this might cause an issue. I'm not concerned regarding safety. I have had separations, and they're no big deal. But a jam is a jam. And I haven't had any jams that a SB die would have fixed. I have had jams that a SB die might possibly exacerbate.

When I first started using a small base die extensively (223 Remington) I was worried about short case life. I have found that I do not trim cases any more or have them fail sooner than before going to the small base dies. The lack of additional trimming tells me that the cases are not being worked much, if any over, the work put on the case in a standard resizing die.

My cases shot in my ARs, M1s and M1As are generally discarded before any troubles in the case head and body area shows itself. I have had one case head separation in my M1A most probably due to a case fired in a machine gun. I have scrapped those cases and will no buy any more once fired cases.

What I recommend to some one asking about small base dies is...

"If you do not have any dies for the cartridge, get the small base dies, if you have dies, use what you have but be aware of the issues."
 
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I have both, the RCBS small base 223 die and the RCBS full length 223 die. The full length die sizes the shoulder to a .352 diameter. The small base die sizes the shoulder to .350 diameter. I just now measured a factory speer .223 cartridge and a factory federal fusion .223 at the shoulder and they were .350. Obviously my measurements depend on my caliper placement, but it was consistent.

Do you think that .002 helps? I really don't know
 
Do small base dies bump the shoulder back further than full length dies, as well as sizing the shoulder smaller too? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm new. :)
 
You can "adjust" how far back you move the shoulder to a degree, and I would assume it sizes the entire body, shoulder included, slightly smaller. That said, if you did not screw the die down far enough to keep the shoulder forward, it might not size the body more than a standard die when adjusted all the way down, since it is tapered. I would also assume it would size the body smaller than the standard die when both are adjusted to push the shoulder to the same spot.
 
You can "adjust" how far back you move the shoulder to a degree, and I would assume it sizes the entire body, shoulder included, slightly smaller. That said, if you did not screw the die down far enough to keep the shoulder forward, it might not size the body more than a standard die when adjusted all the way down, since it is tapered. I would also assume it would size the body smaller than the standard die when both are adjusted to push the shoulder to the same spot.
Does the amount the shoulder bump/size depend on how far the die is screwed in to contact the shell holder?
 
Yes, the farther down you screw down the die the farther it pushes the shoulder, and since the case is tapered, the tighter it squeezes the body.

That said, there is only a narrow window where the case will fit the chamber without having the shoulder pushed back too far. Most dies/shell holders will not allow the shoulder to get pushed back too far, but with manufacturing tolerances, it can happen. Folks are more likely to not screw the die down enough though.

Search for threads about case gauges and headspace.

Here are a couple to start with.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=759018&highlight=Headspace+Gauges
 
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Yes, the farther down you screw down the die the farther it pushes the shoulder, and since the case is tapered, the tighter it squeezes the body.

That said, there is only a narrow window where the case will fit the chamber without having the shoulder pushed back too far. Most dies/shell holders will not allow the shoulder to get pushed back too far, but with manufacturing tolerances, it can happen. Folks are more likely to not screw the die down enough though.

Search for threads about case gauges and headspace.

Here are a couple to start with.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=759018&highlight=Headspace+Gauges
Thank you for posting these links, I just read them, great threads!
 
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